A term taken from a Chinese proverb about opportunity in a crisis, ‘touching fish’ means being lazy at work – a philosophy China’s Generation Z workers increasingly embrace as a response to being underpaid and overworked.
edit: downvoted for asking someone to do basic research? after i posted a ton of links up there? I didn't even mean this in a mean way, i just want more facts. bruh
the whole thing about these China struggle sesshions is like, we barely have any info because of the distance/language barrier/propoganda machines. So any actual information on what is ACTUALLY going on is extremely valuable to me. I want to find the actual facts.
In this case it looks like we know the following:
996 is blantantly illegal. But workers, and zoomers esp are organazing against it. and Jack Ma, a huge proponent of 996 among other corruption, has disappeared. We do not, as far as i know, know if these Chinese government is actually doing anything about 996. I saw they can fine the companies in that wikipedia page, but that's not really a great source for real on the ground information.
Since the downvoter declined to do any research, i actually decided to look into it.
China’s top government media outlets are adding their voices to the debate around the 12-hour work practice in the tech industry, harshly reminding entrepreneurs to “obey the rules” and “avoid chaos.”
So at least they're saying it's illegal in 2019. I still cant find any links to what sort of enforcement they are doing to prevent or curtail 996 though. I would genuinely like to know if anyone can find any sources about it.
I looked for anything new on Ma and the 996 scheme but couldn't find anything on that.
Shenzhen seems to be taking some steps to contend with the 996 system or the general extreme workload:
From next year, employers must “strictly implement” paid leave, so that those “with a heavy mental and physical workload can avoid excessive burnout,” according to regulations approved in October and recently explained by the city’s work committee, the government-backed Shenzhen News reported on Tuesday.
Although there might be loopholes to that:
The document did not specify how many days of paid leave would be enforced under the rule which applies to “staff”, with the status of contractors less clear. link for both quotes
Meanwhile, in Amerikkka,
lol and of course they are stanning that system jfc
that basically says it all.
wow, thanks for finding that! It seems like china still has a ways to go in enforcement, though at least they're taking steps. Hopefully with the nationalization of Alibaba and Ant group, those labor violations will simply cease once the goverment gets their hands on them. We'll have to wait and see, i guess.
Regardless, all power to the zoomer vanguard and workers who are unionizing against 996.:red-fist:
Building socialism takes time, but all the trends are in the right direction. Sorry it isn’t swift and pure enough for you, sitting in your computer chair in America.
Wow have you ever read Lenin? The initial stages of socialism resemble state capitalism, since socialism emerges out of capitalism. Because they don’t leap to full communism, we must condemn!
The trends are in the right direction. Everything is going according to plan. Just chill the fuck out chauvinist. Have some patience and some solidarity.
It's not chauvinist to criticize material conditions.
What's the point of having a communist party if you are going to allow capitalist working conditions and exploitation? Just pull a USSR and collapse so capitalism can run it's natural course if that's really your take.
Anyway, for me the material argument that dominates a lot of this is that china is still developing.
We see they passed the US by some metrics and the constant fear mongering in the US and I feel like I forget that sometimes. If something like poor conditions for otherwise well off tech workers takes time to address because there are still worse problems sucking up attention that makes sense. Workers fighting back also makes sense.
Conditions are improving year over year. What’s the point of being a communist if you demand instant perfection and ignore the real results in front of your face?
When people start making implications that the Chinese capitalists are in control and that the communist party is doing nothing about it, that’s when it is devolving into China Bad and breaching solidarity
Conditions are improving year over year in America. Like, literally go look up any statistics. Does that make it good? Does that mean you can't criticize America without being a chauvinist?
You are literally just using neoliberal platitudes like "expanding health care access" and it's just as bullshit. There are no downsides to better worker protections except the loss of profits to capitalists. You're talking about being a good materialist elsewhere, but for SOME REASON ignoring a basic economic motivation for the actual conditions. Hmmm......
Wages, conditions and actual hours worked by employed individuals are worsening in America. As is poverty. Literally the exact opposite trends as China
Wait, so you agree that wages and conditions are improving in America, but you're arguing elsewhere it's the opposite? What? Also, poverty has been decreasing yearly (likely temporarily) in America. So no.
K cool so you're going to double down and ignore the fact that you are lying about poverty rates I guess.
Also, just so you know, I can literally pick from any inarguably capitalist country in place of America, and my point would still stand. Any country where these metrics are improving. You would undoubtedly say that there is reason to criticize them, and it wouldn't make sense to try to shut down discussion. But for some reason you think differently here.
But the fact remains that a lot of workers are subjected to poor working conditions and the only explanation, as a materialist, is that it serves the ruling class. You can not argue that lol
Worker protections, wages and conditions are all skyrocketing. Again, you need to take a materialist look at the before and after and the big picture trends
There’s a difference between criticizing specific aspects of the Chinese revolution and throwing the entire thing under the bus. Your rhetoric is literally just parroting western talking points, so yes that’s chauvinism
There’s a difference between criticizing specific aspects of the Chinese revolution and throwing the entire thing under the bus.
There is, but it's pretty clear that he only criticized specific aspects of the Chinese revolution, namely watching as tech workers get drained out recklessly.
And I pointed out that hours, wages, and conditions have all been vastly improving year over year and this just wasn’t pure enough and thus the capitalists are in charge and the revolution is dead - despite capitalist nations seeing opposite trends since the neoliberal turn
What are you on about? We are specifically talking about the 996 system which has been in place for a long time and not much seems to have changed for the better, right?
And criticizing the seemingly slow walk the CPC took on this is chauvinism and "throwing the entire thing under the bus"? Seriously?
I’m sorry they are walking “too slow” for the pace you demand. However the metrics on hours worked, wages and conditions are all steadily improving year over year - cutting against the trend in the liberal west.
Refusing to even acknowledge this is where you are blind
You literally just kept talking about how bad the Chinese government is for allowing exploitation at all, and ignored my repeated points that they are steadily improving it and cracking down on corruption
Not at all, but this specific scheme of exploitation that has been known for some time now.
But let's just please drop this now.
Anyways, I just hope for the Chinese workers suffering under this specific practice that they will at some point get a bit fairer treatment, that is all.
I guess we should be able to agree on that, right?
Yes, we agree. Our contention is that I believe the dictatorship of the proletariat in China is working on that fairer treatment already and will continue to do so.
If it is illegal, why doesn't the party swing the hammer and let it come down hard on these companies?
i mean, apparently they are if you believe reddit about what happened to jack ma ;)
One dude, and if he got got it was probably not for labor violations, right?
idk, why don't you research and it find out?
edit: downvoted for asking someone to do basic research? after i posted a ton of links up there? I didn't even mean this in a mean way, i just want more facts. bruh
Maybe because I can't read mandarin?
damn, i can't either. guess we're in the same boat
why was this downvoted????? lol
people bein catty smdh my head
i don't get it smdh i wasn't trying to be mean, i literally want to know if people have more sources
I was referring to the instant downvote they got not you <3
I definitely didn't take it as such either, sorry.
the whole thing about these China struggle sesshions is like, we barely have any info because of the distance/language barrier/propoganda machines. So any actual information on what is ACTUALLY going on is extremely valuable to me. I want to find the actual facts.
In this case it looks like we know the following:
996 is blantantly illegal. But workers, and zoomers esp are organazing against it. and Jack Ma, a huge proponent of 996 among other corruption, has disappeared. We do not, as far as i know, know if these Chinese government is actually doing anything about 996. I saw they can fine the companies in that wikipedia page, but that's not really a great source for real on the ground information.
Since the downvoter declined to do any research, i actually decided to look into it.
https://technode.com/2019/04/16/china-state-996-illegal/
So at least they're saying it's illegal in 2019. I still cant find any links to what sort of enforcement they are doing to prevent or curtail 996 though. I would genuinely like to know if anyone can find any sources about it.
Meanwhile, in Amerikkka,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccafannin/2019/05/05/why-chinas-996-work-culture-makes-sense-right-now/?sh=1f99901e7802
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Oh shit, good tip thank you!
I looked for anything new on Ma and the 996 scheme but couldn't find anything on that.
Shenzhen seems to be taking some steps to contend with the 996 system or the general extreme workload:
Although there might be loopholes to that:
lol and of course they are stanning that system jfc
that basically says it all.
wow, thanks for finding that! It seems like china still has a ways to go in enforcement, though at least they're taking steps. Hopefully with the nationalization of Alibaba and Ant group, those labor violations will simply cease once the goverment gets their hands on them. We'll have to wait and see, i guess.
Regardless, all power to the zoomer vanguard and workers who are unionizing against 996.:red-fist:
😔
Building socialism takes time, but all the trends are in the right direction. Sorry it isn’t swift and pure enough for you, sitting in your computer chair in America.
Letting capitalist corporations squeeze their workers for the last drop, and that for years and years while the CPC watches on. Such great socialism.
I'm sorry, I'm really not against China or anything(if you want check my post history), but you don't need to defend everything that happens in China.
Wow have you ever read Lenin? The initial stages of socialism resemble state capitalism, since socialism emerges out of capitalism. Because they don’t leap to full communism, we must condemn!
The trends are in the right direction. Everything is going according to plan. Just chill the fuck out chauvinist. Have some patience and some solidarity.
It's not chauvinist to criticize material conditions.
What's the point of having a communist party if you are going to allow capitalist working conditions and exploitation? Just pull a USSR and collapse so capitalism can run it's natural course if that's really your take.
Anyway, for me the material argument that dominates a lot of this is that china is still developing.
We see they passed the US by some metrics and the constant fear mongering in the US and I feel like I forget that sometimes. If something like poor conditions for otherwise well off tech workers takes time to address because there are still worse problems sucking up attention that makes sense. Workers fighting back also makes sense.
Conditions are improving year over year. What’s the point of being a communist if you demand instant perfection and ignore the real results in front of your face?
I'm not, making improvements is good.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't examine and question.
Learn so much more about China on here from discussion and reading. it's good as long as we don't let it devolve into "China bad".
When people start making implications that the Chinese capitalists are in control and that the communist party is doing nothing about it, that’s when it is devolving into China Bad and breaching solidarity
Conditions are improving year over year in America. Like, literally go look up any statistics. Does that make it good? Does that mean you can't criticize America without being a chauvinist?
You are literally just using neoliberal platitudes like "expanding health care access" and it's just as bullshit. There are no downsides to better worker protections except the loss of profits to capitalists. You're talking about being a good materialist elsewhere, but for SOME REASON ignoring a basic economic motivation for the actual conditions. Hmmm......
Wages, conditions and actual hours worked by employed individuals are worsening in America. As is poverty. Literally the exact opposite trends as China
Wait, so you agree that wages and conditions are improving in America, but you're arguing elsewhere it's the opposite? What? Also, poverty has been decreasing yearly (likely temporarily) in America. So no.
They are not. Wages and conditions are stagnant or worsening in America. Sorry I’ll edit it to clarify that
K cool so you're going to double down and ignore the fact that you are lying about poverty rates I guess.
Also, just so you know, I can literally pick from any inarguably capitalist country in place of America, and my point would still stand. Any country where these metrics are improving. You would undoubtedly say that there is reason to criticize them, and it wouldn't make sense to try to shut down discussion. But for some reason you think differently here.
But the fact remains that a lot of workers are subjected to poor working conditions and the only explanation, as a materialist, is that it serves the ruling class. You can not argue that lol
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When did Chapo become synonymous with tone policed respectability? I’ll have whatever tone I like
😡
Yes, let the hate flow through you
😔
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Just come to the dirtbag side already it’s more fun. I feel like this place has a stick up it’s ass and is way too uptight
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And you can't have better worker protections in a state capitalist system, where the state can dictate what flies or doesn't fly?
Come on.
Worker protections, wages and conditions are all skyrocketing. Again, you need to take a materialist look at the before and after and the big picture trends
I guess we'll better agree to disagree.
Have solidarity or gtfo
Solidarity with whom the Chinese capitalist exploiting their employees?
With the communist revolution of China. Please be a chauvinist on Reddit, you will find many friends there to jerk off about China bad.
Are you even serious anymore, can't question anything China does or you're a chauvinist?
Okay, buddy.
There’s a difference between criticizing specific aspects of the Chinese revolution and throwing the entire thing under the bus. Your rhetoric is literally just parroting western talking points, so yes that’s chauvinism
There is, but it's pretty clear that he only criticized specific aspects of the Chinese revolution, namely watching as tech workers get drained out recklessly.
And I pointed out that hours, wages, and conditions have all been vastly improving year over year and this just wasn’t pure enough and thus the capitalists are in charge and the revolution is dead - despite capitalist nations seeing opposite trends since the neoliberal turn
What are you on about? We are specifically talking about the 996 system which has been in place for a long time and not much seems to have changed for the better, right?
And criticizing the seemingly slow walk the CPC took on this is chauvinism and "throwing the entire thing under the bus"? Seriously?
I’m sorry they are walking “too slow” for the pace you demand. However the metrics on hours worked, wages and conditions are all steadily improving year over year - cutting against the trend in the liberal west.
Refusing to even acknowledge this is where you are blind
I am not refusing to acknowledge that. Where did I deny general advances China has made in these metrics? Please show me.
You literally just kept talking about how bad the Chinese government is for allowing exploitation at all, and ignored my repeated points that they are steadily improving it and cracking down on corruption
Not at all, but this specific scheme of exploitation that has been known for some time now.
But let's just please drop this now.
Anyways, I just hope for the Chinese workers suffering under this specific practice that they will at some point get a bit fairer treatment, that is all.
I guess we should be able to agree on that, right?
Yes, we agree. Our contention is that I believe the dictatorship of the proletariat in China is working on that fairer treatment already and will continue to do so.
this is what i tell people who ask my why i haven't joined an org.