- cross-posted to:
- sino
- cross-posted to:
- sino
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Firstly based zoomers.
Secondly, for a good time, compare the wikipedias for the blatantly illegal 996 system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
The actual law:
The State shall practise a working hour system wherein labourers shall work for no more than eight hours a day and no more than 44 hours a week on the average.
Btw the recently disappeared Jack Ma was a huge proponent of 996!
Now lets look at the wikipedia for crunch time, since it's effectively the same thing but isn't illegal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer#Crunch_time
It doesn't even have it's own page and the whole section is entirely like "it's Good, Actually", because the law says they can do it and they uhhh provide food.
Crunch time has been used in the industry but until 2004 was generally not discussed openly. A 2004 survey by the International Game Developers Association (IGDA) found only about 3% of respondents did not work any overtime, and of those that did, nearly half were not compensated for overtime.
Seems like a pretty widespread problem if 97% of surveyed devs were forced to do crunch. They need to take a cue from the zoomers.
Final edit:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longest-working-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html
Nearly one quarter of Japanese companies require employees to work more than 80 hours of overtime a month, according to a 2016 government survey. Those extra hours are often unpaid.
damn i wonder why China gets singled out for the ILLEGAL labor violations tho
If it is illegal, why doesn't the party swing the hammer and let it come down hard on these companies?
i mean, apparently they are if you believe reddit about what happened to jack ma ;)
One dude, and if he got got it was probably not for labor violations, right?
idk, why don't you research and it find out?
edit: downvoted for asking someone to do basic research? after i posted a ton of links up there? I didn't even mean this in a mean way, i just want more facts. bruh
damn, i can't either. guess we're in the same boat
why was this downvoted????? lol
i don't get it smdh i wasn't trying to be mean, i literally want to know if people have more sources
the whole thing about these China struggle sesshions is like, we barely have any info because of the distance/language barrier/propoganda machines. So any actual information on what is ACTUALLY going on is extremely valuable to me. I want to find the actual facts.
In this case it looks like we know the following:
996 is blantantly illegal. But workers, and zoomers esp are organazing against it. and Jack Ma, a huge proponent of 996 among other corruption, has disappeared. We do not, as far as i know, know if these Chinese government is actually doing anything about 996. I saw they can fine the companies in that wikipedia page, but that's not really a great source for real on the ground information.
Since the downvoter declined to do any research, i actually decided to look into it.
https://technode.com/2019/04/16/china-state-996-illegal/
China’s top government media outlets are adding their voices to the debate around the 12-hour work practice in the tech industry, harshly reminding entrepreneurs to “obey the rules” and “avoid chaos.”
So at least they're saying it's illegal in 2019. I still cant find any links to what sort of enforcement they are doing to prevent or curtail 996 though. I would genuinely like to know if anyone can find any sources about it.
Meanwhile, in Amerikkka,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccafannin/2019/05/05/why-chinas-996-work-culture-makes-sense-right-now/?sh=1f99901e7802
I looked for anything new on Ma and the 996 scheme but couldn't find anything on that.
Shenzhen seems to be taking some steps to contend with the 996 system or the general extreme workload:
From next year, employers must “strictly implement” paid leave, so that those “with a heavy mental and physical workload can avoid excessive burnout,” according to regulations approved in October and recently explained by the city’s work committee, the government-backed Shenzhen News reported on Tuesday.
Although there might be loopholes to that:
The document did not specify how many days of paid leave would be enforced under the rule which applies to “staff”, with the status of contractors less clear.
link for both quotesMeanwhile, in Amerikkka,
lol and of course they are stanning that system jfc
that basically says it all.wow, thanks for finding that! It seems like china still has a ways to go in enforcement, though at least they're taking steps. Hopefully with the nationalization of Alibaba and Ant group, those labor violations will simply cease once the goverment gets their hands on them. We'll have to wait and see, i guess.
Regardless, all power to the zoomer vanguard and workers who are unionizing against 996.:red-fist:
Building socialism takes time, but all the trends are in the right direction. Sorry it isn’t swift and pure enough for you, sitting in your computer chair in America.
Letting capitalist corporations squeeze their workers for the last drop, and that for years and years while the CPC watches on. Such great socialism.
I'm sorry, I'm really not against China or anything(if you want check my post history), but you don't need to defend everything that happens in China.
Wow have you ever read Lenin? The initial stages of socialism resemble state capitalism, since socialism emerges out of capitalism. Because they don’t leap to full communism, we must condemn!
The trends are in the right direction. Everything is going according to plan. Just chill the fuck out chauvinist. Have some patience and some solidarity.
It's not chauvinist to criticize material conditions.
What's the point of having a communist party if you are going to allow capitalist working conditions and exploitation? Just pull a USSR and collapse so capitalism can run it's natural course if that's really your take.
Anyway, for me the material argument that dominates a lot of this is that china is still developing.
We see they passed the US by some metrics and the constant fear mongering in the US and I feel like I forget that sometimes. If something like poor conditions for otherwise well off tech workers takes time to address because there are still worse problems sucking up attention that makes sense. Workers fighting back also makes sense.
Conditions are improving year over year. What’s the point of being a communist if you demand instant perfection and ignore the real results in front of your face?
I'm not, making improvements is good.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't examine and question.
Learn so much more about China on here from discussion and reading. it's good as long as we don't let it devolve into "China bad".
When people start making implications that the Chinese capitalists are in control and that the communist party is doing nothing about it, that’s when it is devolving into China Bad and breaching solidarity
Conditions are improving year over year in America. Like, literally go look up any statistics. Does that make it good? Does that mean you can't criticize America without being a chauvinist?
You are literally just using neoliberal platitudes like "expanding health care access" and it's just as bullshit. There are no downsides to better worker protections except the loss of profits to capitalists. You're talking about being a good materialist elsewhere, but for SOME REASON ignoring a basic economic motivation for the actual conditions. Hmmm......
Wages, conditions and actual hours worked by employed individuals are worsening in America. As is poverty. Literally the exact opposite trends as China
Wait, so you agree that wages and conditions are improving in America, but you're arguing elsewhere it's the opposite? What? Also, poverty has been decreasing yearly (likely temporarily) in America. So no.
They are not. Wages and conditions are stagnant or worsening in America. Sorry I’ll edit it to clarify that
K cool so you're going to double down and ignore the fact that you are lying about poverty rates I guess.
Also, just so you know, I can literally pick from any inarguably capitalist country in place of America, and my point would still stand. Any country where these metrics are improving. You would undoubtedly say that there is reason to criticize them, and it wouldn't make sense to try to shut down discussion. But for some reason you think differently here.
But the fact remains that a lot of workers are subjected to poor working conditions and the only explanation, as a materialist, is that it serves the ruling class. You can not argue that lol
When did Chapo become synonymous with tone policed respectability? I’ll have whatever tone I like
Just come to the dirtbag side already it’s more fun. I feel like this place has a stick up it’s ass and is way too uptight
And you can't have better worker protections in a state capitalist system, where the state can dictate what flies or doesn't fly?
Come on.
Worker protections, wages and conditions are all skyrocketing. Again, you need to take a materialist look at the before and after and the big picture trends
Solidarity with whom the Chinese capitalist exploiting their employees?
With the communist revolution of China. Please be a chauvinist on Reddit, you will find many friends there to jerk off about China bad.
Are you even serious anymore, can't question anything China does or you're a chauvinist?
Okay, buddy.
There’s a difference between criticizing specific aspects of the Chinese revolution and throwing the entire thing under the bus. Your rhetoric is literally just parroting western talking points, so yes that’s chauvinism
There’s a difference between criticizing specific aspects of the Chinese revolution and throwing the entire thing under the bus.
There is, but it's pretty clear that he only criticized specific aspects of the Chinese revolution, namely watching as tech workers get drained out recklessly.
And I pointed out that hours, wages, and conditions have all been vastly improving year over year and this just wasn’t pure enough and thus the capitalists are in charge and the revolution is dead - despite capitalist nations seeing opposite trends since the neoliberal turn
What are you on about? We are specifically talking about the 996 system which has been in place for a long time and not much seems to have changed for the better, right?
And criticizing the seemingly slow walk the CPC took on this is chauvinism and "throwing the entire thing under the bus"? Seriously?
I’m sorry they are walking “too slow” for the pace you demand. However the metrics on hours worked, wages and conditions are all steadily improving year over year - cutting against the trend in the liberal west.
Refusing to even acknowledge this is where you are blind
I am not refusing to acknowledge that. Where did I deny general advances China has made in these metrics? Please show me.
You literally just kept talking about how bad the Chinese government is for allowing exploitation at all, and ignored my repeated points that they are steadily improving it and cracking down on corruption
Not at all, but this specific scheme of exploitation that has been known for some time now.
But let's just please drop this now.
Anyways, I just hope for the Chinese workers suffering under this specific practice that they will at some point get a bit fairer treatment, that is all.
I guess we should be able to agree on that, right?Yes, we agree. Our contention is that I believe the dictatorship of the proletariat in China is working on that fairer treatment already and will continue to do so.
this is what i tell people who ask my why i haven't joined an org.
This touches on something that I seldom see brought up on chapo.chat’s ceaseless China wank: it many cases, it sucks to be a worker in China, well beyond the ways in which it sucks here in the US.
It’s not just that they work hard, they work way beyond the optimal times for peak productivity, so I don’t even see how it can be justified as toil in the name of building socialism, especially when people like Jack Ma (🦀🦀🦀) get to be billionaires off of that labor.
The 996 work schedule is illegal and not condoned by the party. They are working on cracking down on it
Even if they do, there is just so much power with corporations that not that much is being done.
So, are you saying the capitalists controlling these corporations are basically more powerful than the party in present-day China?
I don't know if more, but they certainly have strategic power and the party can't do anything it wants immediately. Maybe they even do have more power than the party, after all economic power is political power.
It is a sad state of affairs.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
In my imaginary ideal the party would give them a month to rectify these policies and would also force them to pay reparations to workers who have been subjected to this practice.
If they don't abide GTFO
If they aren't wouldn't that mean the Party is willingly letting them do this? Wouldn't that be worse?
it sucks to be a worker in China, well beyond the ways in which it sucks here in the US.
Hey, even China offers state-mandated minimum time off from work, 11 public holidays, on top of whatever the employer gives. No such legally mandated guarantee in the US. Right-to-work is also a massive anti-labor practice, and it's quite common for people to work way, way more than 40 hour per week. As awful as labor practices are in China, at least work is easy to come by if you quit or are fired.
America also has higher average work weeks than China. Americans average over 50 hours a week, which is the 2nd highest in the world, below Japan.
Since things have been steadily improving for all of my life for China, and steadily worsening for the west, I'd like to say they are on the right track. Western socialism is so individualistic, you think mostly about one worker at a time, but that doesn't win you anything. As a collective things are getting better, as a collective things are getting done. Nothing is gained without sacrifice. At least with China that sacrifice has made things better for all instead of just a few capitalists. They still have capitalists, like Ma, but that kind of thing has it's uses too.
Perfect socialism/ communism only exists on paper.
Can anyone translate "boss makes a dollar while I make a dime, that's why I shit on company time" into Chinese for me
In general, Generation Z abhors the so-called 996 work rhythm – shifts that last from 9am to 9pm, six days a week – widely expected of employees by Chinese tech giants.
Sounds like a great system. wtf
Regarding the response from bosses, the blogger Massage Bear wrote: “Even if my boss scolds me [for ‘touching fish’], calls me rubbish or blames me for being not responsible, I will just smile and will never get angry. I will never take the initiative to resign. If he fires me, I will receive compensation of ‘N+1’.”
China’s Labour Law stipulates that if a company fires an employee without substantive reasons, it should pay them compensation, which is usually the employee’s monthly salary times the number (N) of years they have worked for the company plus one.So, how substantive of a reason do they need?
China’s Labour Law stipulates that if a company fires an employee without substantive reasons, it should pay them compensation, which is usually the employee’s monthly salary times the number (N) of years they have worked for the company plus one.
Holy shit this is literally better than some of the best unemployment/pension systems in the US.
Which is why I asked the question of what constitutes a substantive reason, because at least in the west it seems corporations aren't having issues coming up with stuff to get someone canned.
Like for example the often used tool of restructuring that just most unfortunately eliminated a few jobs.
Obviously I couldn't say if this translates to China, but I can't imagine their corporations being much different in that respect.If their confidence is anything to go by, that blogger at least seemed to believe they'd receive it even if they were fired for slacking off.
Unlikely, but I'd be willing to believe that it is for at least some, which would be an improvement on a lot of places.
Boomers are bad in China too. Who woulda thunk it....
Also, love too have 996 work culture with minimal protections in “socialist” China
My point is it's absurd to expect a government to follow their policy just because they say they will
I feel so connected to my fellow humans on the other side of the Earth
A Shanghai-based white-collar worker using the alias Massage Bear shot to fame on Weibo in 2020 by promoting the “touching fish” philosophy. One of her posts which went viral read: “How hard you work depends on how much money you receive and never be serious about your work.”
the bear aesthetic is universal
Bears. Bread. Trains.
Although I do wonder if Trains are an American thing and if foreign comrades appreciate what they have.
i remember reading a chinese train enthusiast forum and it had like 1million members on it just for posting about chinese trains and train rumors so tbh its a thing for sure in china
the most principled marxist since Maos in the lead and the most class conscious generation since Maos time in the masses :sicko-yes:
I feel like this is any job under capitalism. Any leftist will feel like shit at any job because there is so much important work to be done but the capitalist system forbids or disincentivizes it and instead we just waste time on worthless spreadsheets because we have to fucking eat. I wish we had 5-year plans with ambitious goals and something like the CCC but for literally everything. Anything I would consider progress will probably never happen in the US and I'm pretty much trapped here forever because lol borders.
Crazy thought
This is the point and the CCP will encourage these people to turn to political interests in response to their problems.
The CCP is building an interest in politics by intentionally allowing its own people to be mistreated and exploited? That is certainly an interesting theory you have.
