Wars are bad. Bad wars are evil. But if you have to fight a war, forcing the entire society to participate means democratizing the costs of war. Politicians' kids, rich kids - no one is exempt. That means the elites have to think harder before getting into war, try to end it quickly, and take care of the troops (supply them properly, don't send them into meat-grinders) while it lasts.
Drafts can be unfair - giving exemptions to the rich/elites ala Vietnam and drafting minorities at greater rates, and that's bad. But they still spread the costs of war more broadly than professional armies, which employ sadists/militarists and the poor. A professional army will attack its own civilians more readily, too, as it has less in common with them.
But they still spread the costs of war more broadly than professional armies, which employ sadists/militarists and the poor.
Austria still has conscription (for men only, and you can do either 9 months of social work or 6 months of military service). Tbh I'm against it. But the one opinion that's made me hesitate was some guy on Reddit going, "Do you know what kind of person actually wants to join the army in Austria?! You want to have an army of only Nazis and sadists?!" I guess he has a point.
Austria still has conscription (for men only, and you can do either 9 months of social work or 6 months of military service). Tbh I’m against it.
AFAIK in Germany you don't get punished with a longer time for choosing the social work option, which can also be things like doing research as you have choice over what it is. IMO some sort of national service is a good thing - work experience, communal work, sense of solidarity. And of course you want it to be gender-equal.
Peacetime conscription in a country that probably won't fight a war within your lifetime is definitely annoying. But with the alternative service option I see it as an extension of compulsory education - in the wider Bildung sense, the formation of the citizen.
If you're part of a society - you must sweat and bleed for it. If you sweat and bleed for your society - you will demand more from it. The government shouldn't be some distant corporation that you have no relationship with - because if it doesn't need anything from you, it won't give anything back to you.
Yeah the gender imbalance is one of my main problems with it. I think it causes resentment that women aren't conscripted. OTOH I had female friends who were frustrated that they had to pay out of their own pocket to do a social volunteer year while their male friends got paid for the same work. (However Austria kinda lags behind in terms of workplace gender equality in general, so I have friends who argue that has to be fixed first.)
On the other hand, idk, I guess I'm just wary about everyone having to go through conscripted training. I feel like when the state is overall right wing, it's just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people. Maybe because I'm a little more familiar with the Russian and Israeli army conscription, where imo that's definitely the case. (All my male Austrian friends did the social work thing.) Ofc it's different if it's a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
Finally tbh it's kind of annoying for immigrants 😂 Like it's one thing if you and all your friends do six months of helping out in the old people's home before properly starting work/uni. It's another if you're finally eligible for Austrian citizenship at 28 and either have to quit your job and work for like 600EUR/month for 9 months or cross your fingers and hope that nothing changes so you can wait to get citizenship at 35.
Ofc it’s different if it’s a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
True! I guess the logical of democratizing war ultimately means dropping all exemptions (except mental/physical disability) - everyone must have an equal chance to serve. That doesn't mean everyone has to be drafted into soldering, but everyone must have a chance of being drafted by lottery, so that every demographic is represented. An added benefit is every citizen is a potential soldier - every community has veterans capable of resisting oppression by force.
If your country is actually in danger, then you vote that ~50% of all eligible draftees have to become soldiers next year (and 50% do social work). If war is not on the horizon, then it's only some 5% (and 95% do social work). Actually teaching everyone to fight would pose problems - it's like giving everyone a hammer.
when the state is overall right wing, it’s just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people.
No more than at school. And just as at school, when it's you and your peers going through it, you can see through their bullshit better. With a professional army, the young people who already fell for the propaganda are isolated in a bubble.
I think societies like Israel's have militarized cultures. Conscription is not the linchpin of propaganda, it's just one aspect of the system.
To be completely honest, I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there's a huge difference between a "hypothetical, ideal situation" and my current, specific one.
When I read through your proposals, I think even if we could quibble over the particularities, I agree with your ideas overall. I think there's a lot of merit to having everyone do a social work year in general, and I think the point about some kind of lottery system for the military is fair.
But when I think about what if Austria were to do this system tomorrow, I feel immediately revolted. I'm an immigrant from the Soviet region. I do really like Austria. The country is beautiful and I like the people and lifestyle, even if I thought it was the most boring place on earth as a teenager lol. If the conscription was extended to women I don't mind doing the social year. But I just don't wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives. When I visited the local concentration camp last, I searched the names for my grandpa's brother - he was MIA and hey you never know. If I won the 5% lottery I think I'd rather serve the jail time. It's illogical but there you go.
I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there’s a huge difference between a “hypothetical, ideal situation” and my current, specific one.
You're totally right! Hypothetically supporting having conscription in an ideal society is different from supporting it in a specific place and time.
I’m an immigrant from the Soviet region
Ich auch, aber wohne in der Staaten. Vielleicht verstehen wir einander deshalb )
But I just don’t wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives.
The problem here is of course not conscription in Austria, but rather, like with everything else in life, the dissolution of the Soviet Union! Or, more abstractly, anyone having to move to a place that they aren't willing to fight for. I'd see no problem fighting for (denazified) East Germany, for example.
My perception of boot camp and stuff was always that of a giant hazing ritual, which while I’m sure it’s necessary it just feels off.
Yeah, war sucks. But if society is gonna do war - then everyone must have a chance of being hazed. What should happen in a democratic/free society is that people hate being hazed enough that they vote for politicians who avoid conflict and resolve differences so eventually no one has to be hazed.
What happens now is only the poor (and bullies) get hazed. That's both unjust AND there's no negative feedback loop for the rest of society not to engage in war.
Note also how the mythologizing of "the troops" really picked up after the draft ended. When the military is a chore, and when a bunch of people who aren't interested in it have to serve anyways, it's harder to maintain a heavily-propagandized view of the institution.
I don't think that's a hard rule though, many right wing governments had conscription and maintained a fantasy view of the military, that's a tenement of fascism.
The mythologizing the troops was already widespread from ww1, ww2, and Korea. Like in the popular consciousness of American conservatives, the Vietnam War did not really disrupt it. Rather all the drafted protesting just become bad troops.
It would make wars much more unpopular and thus less likely. Terrorism/democracy/oil/lithium is enough to justify a line on the news once a month, but not your child driving over IEDs.
And if you're drafted - free revolutionary training plus a chance to radicalize a fraternal organization. Conscientious objection should of course also be an option.
The current shortage of volunteers does constrain the US military to some extent - but they're rapidly shifting toward using more tech and arming locals to counteract that. I think drafts have more benefits than costs.
people that wouldn’t make that connection for it basically just cause suffering for no reason
Yeah, sure, not every worker suffering under capitalism becomes a socialist either. But if everyone has to serve customers at some point, everyone will be a bit nicer to customer service workers, you know?
I would hope the draft wouldn’t be a problem or a necessity in a socialist country because most people in it would be aware that the collapse or takeover of it would be a very bad thing.
That's a thought contradictory to the one above - is everyone conscious of the condition of their society or not? In a utopia, we'd all know when to fight a war and when to boycott one. But I think even in a socialist society the average person would shirk responsibility if left to their own devices - or even if only a minority would shirk responsibility, you'd be creating inequality down the line if you allow that minority to escape paying the costs that everyone else is paying.
Drafts are good, actually.
Wars are bad. Bad wars are evil. But if you have to fight a war, forcing the entire society to participate means democratizing the costs of war. Politicians' kids, rich kids - no one is exempt. That means the elites have to think harder before getting into war, try to end it quickly, and take care of the troops (supply them properly, don't send them into meat-grinders) while it lasts.
Drafts can be unfair - giving exemptions to the rich/elites ala Vietnam and drafting minorities at greater rates, and that's bad. But they still spread the costs of war more broadly than professional armies, which employ sadists/militarists and the poor. A professional army will attack its own civilians more readily, too, as it has less in common with them.
Austria still has conscription (for men only, and you can do either 9 months of social work or 6 months of military service). Tbh I'm against it. But the one opinion that's made me hesitate was some guy on Reddit going, "Do you know what kind of person actually wants to join the army in Austria?! You want to have an army of only Nazis and sadists?!" I guess he has a point.
AFAIK in Germany you don't get punished with a longer time for choosing the social work option, which can also be things like doing research as you have choice over what it is. IMO some sort of national service is a good thing - work experience, communal work, sense of solidarity. And of course you want it to be gender-equal.
Peacetime conscription in a country that probably won't fight a war within your lifetime is definitely annoying. But with the alternative service option I see it as an extension of compulsory education - in the wider Bildung sense, the formation of the citizen.
If you're part of a society - you must sweat and bleed for it. If you sweat and bleed for your society - you will demand more from it. The government shouldn't be some distant corporation that you have no relationship with - because if it doesn't need anything from you, it won't give anything back to you.
Yeah the gender imbalance is one of my main problems with it. I think it causes resentment that women aren't conscripted. OTOH I had female friends who were frustrated that they had to pay out of their own pocket to do a social volunteer year while their male friends got paid for the same work. (However Austria kinda lags behind in terms of workplace gender equality in general, so I have friends who argue that has to be fixed first.)
On the other hand, idk, I guess I'm just wary about everyone having to go through conscripted training. I feel like when the state is overall right wing, it's just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people. Maybe because I'm a little more familiar with the Russian and Israeli army conscription, where imo that's definitely the case. (All my male Austrian friends did the social work thing.) Ofc it's different if it's a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
Finally tbh it's kind of annoying for immigrants 😂 Like it's one thing if you and all your friends do six months of helping out in the old people's home before properly starting work/uni. It's another if you're finally eligible for Austrian citizenship at 28 and either have to quit your job and work for like 600EUR/month for 9 months or cross your fingers and hope that nothing changes so you can wait to get citizenship at 35.
True! I guess the logical of democratizing war ultimately means dropping all exemptions (except mental/physical disability) - everyone must have an equal chance to serve. That doesn't mean everyone has to be drafted into soldering, but everyone must have a chance of being drafted by lottery, so that every demographic is represented. An added benefit is every citizen is a potential soldier - every community has veterans capable of resisting oppression by force.
If your country is actually in danger, then you vote that ~50% of all eligible draftees have to become soldiers next year (and 50% do social work). If war is not on the horizon, then it's only some 5% (and 95% do social work). Actually teaching everyone to fight would pose problems - it's like giving everyone a hammer.
No more than at school. And just as at school, when it's you and your peers going through it, you can see through their bullshit better. With a professional army, the young people who already fell for the propaganda are isolated in a bubble.
I think societies like Israel's have militarized cultures. Conscription is not the linchpin of propaganda, it's just one aspect of the system.
To be completely honest, I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there's a huge difference between a "hypothetical, ideal situation" and my current, specific one.
When I read through your proposals, I think even if we could quibble over the particularities, I agree with your ideas overall. I think there's a lot of merit to having everyone do a social work year in general, and I think the point about some kind of lottery system for the military is fair.
But when I think about what if Austria were to do this system tomorrow, I feel immediately revolted. I'm an immigrant from the Soviet region. I do really like Austria. The country is beautiful and I like the people and lifestyle, even if I thought it was the most boring place on earth as a teenager lol. If the conscription was extended to women I don't mind doing the social year. But I just don't wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives. When I visited the local concentration camp last, I searched the names for my grandpa's brother - he was MIA and hey you never know. If I won the 5% lottery I think I'd rather serve the jail time. It's illogical but there you go.
You're totally right! Hypothetically supporting having conscription in an ideal society is different from supporting it in a specific place and time.
Ich auch, aber wohne in der Staaten. Vielleicht verstehen wir einander deshalb )
The problem here is of course not conscription in Austria, but rather, like with everything else in life, the dissolution of the Soviet Union! Or, more abstractly, anyone having to move to a place that they aren't willing to fight for. I'd see no problem fighting for (denazified) East Germany, for example.
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Starship Troopers are a professional military! You have to volunteer to join - and if you don't you're a soy beta.
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"Service guarantees citizenship" - you only get to vote if you have served in the military.
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Yeah, war sucks. But if society is gonna do war - then everyone must have a chance of being hazed. What should happen in a democratic/free society is that people hate being hazed enough that they vote for politicians who avoid conflict and resolve differences so eventually no one has to be hazed.
What happens now is only the poor (and bullies) get hazed. That's both unjust AND there's no negative feedback loop for the rest of society not to engage in war.
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Note also how the mythologizing of "the troops" really picked up after the draft ended. When the military is a chore, and when a bunch of people who aren't interested in it have to serve anyways, it's harder to maintain a heavily-propagandized view of the institution.
I don't think that's a hard rule though, many right wing governments had conscription and maintained a fantasy view of the military, that's a tenement of fascism.
The mythologizing the troops was already widespread from ww1, ww2, and Korea. Like in the popular consciousness of American conservatives, the Vietnam War did not really disrupt it. Rather all the drafted protesting just become bad troops.
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It would make wars much more unpopular and thus less likely. Terrorism/democracy/oil/lithium is enough to justify a line on the news once a month, but not your child driving over IEDs.
And if you're drafted - free revolutionary training plus a chance to radicalize a fraternal organization. Conscientious objection should of course also be an option.
The current shortage of volunteers does constrain the US military to some extent - but they're rapidly shifting toward using more tech and arming locals to counteract that. I think drafts have more benefits than costs.
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Yeah, sure, not every worker suffering under capitalism becomes a socialist either. But if everyone has to serve customers at some point, everyone will be a bit nicer to customer service workers, you know?
That's a thought contradictory to the one above - is everyone conscious of the condition of their society or not? In a utopia, we'd all know when to fight a war and when to boycott one. But I think even in a socialist society the average person would shirk responsibility if left to their own devices - or even if only a minority would shirk responsibility, you'd be creating inequality down the line if you allow that minority to escape paying the costs that everyone else is paying.
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you're not wrong about any of that, but I still think drafts are bad, because they're in service to standing militaries. which I don't love.