Start wrecklessly chugging some Everclear, son. I was trying to remember who this guy is, and remembered I saw one like 6-10 minute video of his a while back. I thought he seemed drastically more accurate and sensible than the vast majority of shit I could imagine hearing. That's rare for me. Why is everyone in agreement here that there's something bad about him?
Remember, only saw one short video. Not enough to get me watching more, for that matter.
He's one of the only people who's reporting on the fact that Syrian nerve gas attacks were staged (like Robert Fisk, the best Middle-East correspondent of last decades also said btw ), he regelarly has video's against imperialism in Venezuela and has called the coup in Bolivia what it is: a coup. He's also constantly talking about ending the wars and the fact that Obama, who campaigned as a peace candidate, expanded our 2 wars to 7. What sort of imperialism is he in favor of? I'm curious what you got, because you sound like you're just making stuff up.
People who criticize him don't even know what he stands for because they don't listen to his show or watch clips. They don't like him so they don't think it's worth learning anything about him so they don't and just run off what they heard second hand from posts. One person on here one time said something about Dore not telling people to do real action (unionizing, etc). I don't listen to him either but I googled to see what his stances on labor was. Turns out he has a section on his site for joining unions or strikes and had an IWW leader on his show. I still don't listen to Dore but I at least don't assume I know everything about him.
People need to get rid of their poster-brains. I've seen this hate train act the same way for other people. They just get into a stance where they don't like someone because they read in a post one time about something bad and the person who made that post is doing the same thing. So you have a bunch of people playing telephone and getting worked up over it. It's just nuts to see the hate-wagon be so successful. I know Cornell West has gone on Dore's show because I have twitter. Same with Brie Gray Joy and others. For people here to say that they know Dore is a secret Nazi grifter, that means all these smart, experienced, leftists who go on his show somehow missed it. They're too stupid or ignorant to know who Dore is. If we're not implying that the people we like going on Dore are dumb, then that leaves them knowing his a secret Nazi grifter and going on his show must not be a deal-breaker. Either the platform is so valuable that it's worth working with a grifter Nazi or going on these platforms is a meaningless gesture. If either of those are true, then it applies to Dore going on Tucker's show.
What I'm getting at is that no matter how you feel about Dore, you can logic yourself to one conclusion, that it ultimately doesn't matter if he's a grifter. And the likelihood that he is a grifter in the sense that he's lying for money is pretty low. Plus it's way more profitable to grift libs and chuds over online leftists. You don't make millions by pretending to be mad at the US healthcare system. Trust the capitalists to chase what's profitable.
Force the Vote's power is in messaging. It's about confronting the corporate democrats to show that the left can offer people something bett--- aaand AOC wants to murder your family, the left members of congress hate M4A, they want to see it destroyed, they want to see you destroyed, they're evil, they're sellouts, they're gonna burn in hell, they're all the same as Pelosi, all the same,
aaand AOC wants to murder your family (...) they’re gonna burn in hell
That's a strawman.
they’re sellouts (...) they’re all the same as Pelosi
When Pelosi was new congress, [ she was in favor of single payer-healthcare](https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1341867268196560897, but over the years she backed away from it. Why did that happen? Did she become a more morally evil person who just likes to do evil things, or did she become rich, and did she, by being in the democratic party, started playing a tit-for-that game in which genuine left ideas will never win?
The second scenario is happening with AOC and the squad. And it's not all that surprising: all the pressure inside such institutions will lead you in that direction, and only people with very strong ideological convictions who are accountable to a socialist party will be able to withstand that. The current lefties inside congress are atomised individuals without strategic objectives and responsiveness to a socialist organisation. They will fall for the pressure of the democratic machine, and we're seeing that happening in front of our eyes.
This is a hard realisation, it was for me at least, but we have to realise it. To make a comparison: many people who were alive during the civil rights era still are in love with Jim Clyburn, despite the fact that he's no longer the icon he was back then, but just another corporate politician. I do not want us to become like that.
"The anti #forcethevote left claims to have a more sophisticated understanding of power, but #forcethevote understands that Pelosi's power comes from her fundraising prowess. Donors dictate behavior -- not polite behavior. The left will never win at an inside game." https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1345458416345632774
when I say 'power' or 'impotence', I dont mean to say it in terms of the factions within congress; I mean to say it in terms of working class consciousness. there is no solidarity to speak of. as the saying goes theres no such thing as a poor american, they're all just down on their luck millionaires.
gray's approach to supporting ftv was the only approach I could get behind. it was an attitude of, "well, we cant pick and choose our moments, and this might be our moment." but even then, what the fuck was the moment? forcing the vote and having it shut down by something like 300 to 35 in the lower house? if that's our 'moment' you should seriously take a second to consider how free politicians are to serve the interests of capital in the US.
and what fundraising prowess would we have hampered? theres an entire industry of privately held healthcare providers with supply chains that span the globe that would have put their money behind a no.
the ftv movement motivated me to actually start reading theory because it made me realize much of the people I considered to be on 'the left' are ideologically undisciplined folks who benefit from the american empire and just want m4a to increase their quality of life.
A lot of people believed DSA was that, but it's now undeniable that they're not.
throwing your plate of chicken tendies at one of 5 non-ghoulish people in Congress
This is not a serious criticism, but a ridiculous analogy that in no way addresses the points I was making.
born out of impotence.
In a sense I actually agree with this, but because #forcethevote showed that the parliamentary left is impotent, as opposed to what many people believed.
the chicken tendies reference is a criticism based around a ridiculous meme. it makes humor out of the source of rage/anger which is generally impotent. as you said you dont disagree with that point.
the dsa is obligated to hold aoc accountable as their endorsement of her is a big part of why she's in office. but this issue wasn't a big controversy within the dsa, as the issue was purely a matter of tactics, not strategy.
when the dsa only has a right to hold 4 or so congresspeople to account, they cant do a whole lot in terms of tactics because they really cant achieve shit.
if a floor vote had been held, do you think m4a would have been passed? if you answer yes you are wrong. meaning, if you're right, this controversy was a matter of political theater; pure tactics. even its advocates saw it as such.
at the time this controversy was going on, there was a controversy over the 2k checks. keep in mind, most republican voters were outraged over McConnell's refusal to follow trump's recomendation of 2k checks. even then, the Senate agreed near unanimously to vote against holding a vote for 2k checks(around 88 to 12). this is to say, the republicans told their supporters to eat shit, while the democrats tried to deceive their supporters with a performative fight.
if you give a shit about reform through the electoral process, ask yourself why McConnell represents the 3rd most impoverished state in the country. then realize the only difference between him and the democratic establishment is performative woke shit.
tl;dr no hope in america. we're too dumb, glutonous and enriched by imperialism to want to disturb the current order. leftist infighting is also bad, especially when its over a theatrical production.
It is, because he's not saying AOC wants to kill you, that's ridiculous. I don't understand why you insist on defending this point, instead of adressing the analysis which I made? I hope that on this site we all still understand we're comrades who might not agree on everything, but at least argue in good faith.
Wow, Dore didn't talk about Medicare for All on there? Clearly he doesn't believe in it. What a sellout.
next time I see him being mentioned in an unironically positive manner on this site, I'm lighting myself on fire.
Start wrecklessly chugging some Everclear, son. I was trying to remember who this guy is, and remembered I saw one like 6-10 minute video of his a while back. I thought he seemed drastically more accurate and sensible than the vast majority of shit I could imagine hearing. That's rare for me. Why is everyone in agreement here that there's something bad about him?
Remember, only saw one short video. Not enough to get me watching more, for that matter.
hes a fucking liberal who wants healthcare. hes funny when he makes fun of establishment politicians, but in the end hes a one issue voter.
if tulsi gives him his healthcare, hes down with 'sensible' imperialism and anti-trans rhetoric as long as he gets his.
bah god, at least sam seder flirts with marxists on occasion. dore is literally status quo + m4a.
He's one of the only people who's reporting on the fact that Syrian nerve gas attacks were staged (like Robert Fisk, the best Middle-East correspondent of last decades also said btw ), he regelarly has video's against imperialism in Venezuela and has called the coup in Bolivia what it is: a coup. He's also constantly talking about ending the wars and the fact that Obama, who campaigned as a peace candidate, expanded our 2 wars to 7. What sort of imperialism is he in favor of? I'm curious what you got, because you sound like you're just making stuff up.
People who criticize him don't even know what he stands for because they don't listen to his show or watch clips. They don't like him so they don't think it's worth learning anything about him so they don't and just run off what they heard second hand from posts. One person on here one time said something about Dore not telling people to do real action (unionizing, etc). I don't listen to him either but I googled to see what his stances on labor was. Turns out he has a section on his site for joining unions or strikes and had an IWW leader on his show. I still don't listen to Dore but I at least don't assume I know everything about him.
People need to get rid of their poster-brains. I've seen this hate train act the same way for other people. They just get into a stance where they don't like someone because they read in a post one time about something bad and the person who made that post is doing the same thing. So you have a bunch of people playing telephone and getting worked up over it. It's just nuts to see the hate-wagon be so successful. I know Cornell West has gone on Dore's show because I have twitter. Same with Brie Gray Joy and others. For people here to say that they know Dore is a secret Nazi grifter, that means all these smart, experienced, leftists who go on his show somehow missed it. They're too stupid or ignorant to know who Dore is. If we're not implying that the people we like going on Dore are dumb, then that leaves them knowing his a secret Nazi grifter and going on his show must not be a deal-breaker. Either the platform is so valuable that it's worth working with a grifter Nazi or going on these platforms is a meaningless gesture. If either of those are true, then it applies to Dore going on Tucker's show.
What I'm getting at is that no matter how you feel about Dore, you can logic yourself to one conclusion, that it ultimately doesn't matter if he's a grifter. And the likelihood that he is a grifter in the sense that he's lying for money is pretty low. Plus it's way more profitable to grift libs and chuds over online leftists. You don't make millions by pretending to be mad at the US healthcare system. Trust the capitalists to chase what's profitable.
Well what are you?
He was right about #forcethevote.
Force the Vote's power is in messaging. It's about confronting the corporate democrats to show that the left can offer people something bett--- aaand AOC wants to murder your family, the left members of congress hate M4A, they want to see it destroyed, they want to see you destroyed, they're evil, they're sellouts, they're gonna burn in hell, they're all the same as Pelosi, all the same,
That's a strawman.
When Pelosi was new congress, [ she was in favor of single payer-healthcare](https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1341867268196560897, but over the years she backed away from it. Why did that happen? Did she become a more morally evil person who just likes to do evil things, or did she become rich, and did she, by being in the democratic party, started playing a tit-for-that game in which genuine left ideas will never win? The second scenario is happening with AOC and the squad. And it's not all that surprising: all the pressure inside such institutions will lead you in that direction, and only people with very strong ideological convictions who are accountable to a socialist party will be able to withstand that. The current lefties inside congress are atomised individuals without strategic objectives and responsiveness to a socialist organisation. They will fall for the pressure of the democratic machine, and we're seeing that happening in front of our eyes.
This is a hard realisation, it was for me at least, but we have to realise it. To make a comparison: many people who were alive during the civil rights era still are in love with Jim Clyburn, despite the fact that he's no longer the icon he was back then, but just another corporate politician. I do not want us to become like that.
where is that socialist party and whats dore done to help build it? and what exactly is dore's ideology?
its 2021 and theres not been one openly marxist politician at the federal level in us history. we dont even have a socialist base lol.
no, throwing your plate of chicken tendies at one of 5 non-ghoulish people in Congress does not help the cause in any way.
FTV was a temper tantrum born out of impotence.
"The anti #forcethevote left claims to have a more sophisticated understanding of power, but #forcethevote understands that Pelosi's power comes from her fundraising prowess. Donors dictate behavior -- not polite behavior. The left will never win at an inside game." https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1345458416345632774
when I say 'power' or 'impotence', I dont mean to say it in terms of the factions within congress; I mean to say it in terms of working class consciousness. there is no solidarity to speak of. as the saying goes theres no such thing as a poor american, they're all just down on their luck millionaires.
gray's approach to supporting ftv was the only approach I could get behind. it was an attitude of, "well, we cant pick and choose our moments, and this might be our moment." but even then, what the fuck was the moment? forcing the vote and having it shut down by something like 300 to 35 in the lower house? if that's our 'moment' you should seriously take a second to consider how free politicians are to serve the interests of capital in the US.
and what fundraising prowess would we have hampered? theres an entire industry of privately held healthcare providers with supply chains that span the globe that would have put their money behind a no.
the ftv movement motivated me to actually start reading theory because it made me realize much of the people I considered to be on 'the left' are ideologically undisciplined folks who benefit from the american empire and just want m4a to increase their quality of life.
A lot of people believed DSA was that, but it's now undeniable that they're not.
This is not a serious criticism, but a ridiculous analogy that in no way addresses the points I was making.
In a sense I actually agree with this, but because #forcethevote showed that the parliamentary left is impotent, as opposed to what many people believed.
the chicken tendies reference is a criticism based around a ridiculous meme. it makes humor out of the source of rage/anger which is generally impotent. as you said you dont disagree with that point.
the dsa is obligated to hold aoc accountable as their endorsement of her is a big part of why she's in office. but this issue wasn't a big controversy within the dsa, as the issue was purely a matter of tactics, not strategy.
when the dsa only has a right to hold 4 or so congresspeople to account, they cant do a whole lot in terms of tactics because they really cant achieve shit.
if a floor vote had been held, do you think m4a would have been passed? if you answer yes you are wrong. meaning, if you're right, this controversy was a matter of political theater; pure tactics. even its advocates saw it as such.
at the time this controversy was going on, there was a controversy over the 2k checks. keep in mind, most republican voters were outraged over McConnell's refusal to follow trump's recomendation of 2k checks. even then, the Senate agreed near unanimously to vote against holding a vote for 2k checks(around 88 to 12). this is to say, the republicans told their supporters to eat shit, while the democrats tried to deceive their supporters with a performative fight.
if you give a shit about reform through the electoral process, ask yourself why McConnell represents the 3rd most impoverished state in the country. then realize the only difference between him and the democratic establishment is performative woke shit.
tl;dr no hope in america. we're too dumb, glutonous and enriched by imperialism to want to disturb the current order. leftist infighting is also bad, especially when its over a theatrical production.
It would be a strawman of most FTV supporters, whom I respect. It's not a strawman of Jimmy Dore.
It is, because he's not saying AOC wants to kill you, that's ridiculous. I don't understand why you insist on defending this point, instead of adressing the analysis which I made? I hope that on this site we all still understand we're comrades who might not agree on everything, but at least argue in good faith.
Jimmy Dore literally said on his show that AOC is trying to prevent Medicare for all from passing. If you really want I can get the clip somehow
Really makes U think
Red-flaggy all over the place