Lmao, since I can’t get downvoted, I want to point out that I was on the record saying jimmy dore and tulsi were ops back on the subreddit.
It’s funny because Mayo Pete was the CIA candidate but tulsi was the FBI candidate. As usual the CIA is leaps and bounds ahead of the FBI in terms of competence.
Now I’m going to go the the Whole Foods here in Langley VA to pick up some meat so I can grill.
Edit - specify why I’m going to Whole Foods. I’m not a fucking Pinkerton.
People on this very site got mad at me for saying this guy and anyone who pushed any Democrat other than Bernie in the primary are not trustworthy.
People who're mad about Dore's tone seem to have a completely different rule for themselves.
"Oh wow, you were rude to me after I was rude to you first, clearly there are different rules for the two of us."
I'm very sorry you were offended by someone making an argument you didn't agree with.
You must have me confused. I'm not one of the FTV people who lashed out any everyone who gave the most bare criticisms of tactic. I'm one of the people who thought it was a weak tactic divorced from any sort lf larger effective strategy. Nor am I one of the people who are blindly supporting a media grifter who is more interested in getting people on his show than passing M4A or getting Bernie elected.
And what candidate was the Klob? NSA (National Stapler Association)?
He has the same expression everytime lmao how did Tucker become a host he can't even form an expression outside of 'I need to poo'
Carlson, making his trademark “watching two dogs in full 69 at a distance” face, listened intently as Wolfe claimed that Wake Forest Dean of Students Adam Goldstein told him that Donald Trump’s election “somehow justified” the cracker-bearing students’ behavior.
https://splinternews.com/sick-liberals-photoshop-brave-patriots-face-onto-a-salt-1823425845
He looks like he crossed some old Romani woman and got cursed with permanent diarrhea cramps
If you're gonna make witchcraft jokes you might as well just use the g word
YES, i'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. In every picture he has this look on his face like "What am I doing here, how did I get here? Is this some kind of TV studio". He gives off such major Early Steve Brule energy. I don't think I've ever seen him on an actual television in real life, and I hope i never do because (among other reasons) in my head I imagine him getting all jumbled and forgetting if he's the host or the guest and trying to figure out basic aspects of the US far right political scene.
Steve Harvey makes the same stupid face and I hate him almost as much for it.
Honestly, more people on the left should go on Fox News.
Of course, they should not be attacking people on the left using the right's talking points.
To say the least, I did not have a high opinion of Jimmy Dore and I still do not.
theres a leftist named rutger Bregman who went on there and caused Carlson to have a meltdown after saying some classist things. it wasn't aired but the guy recorded the footage on his own end.
the only way leftists can get on is if they talk about elites in a 'right-populist' way(i.e the elite are bad, but capitalism is good)
come to think of it, dore is perfect as a lefty correspondent for fox news.
Yeah, do what you need to do on there, and they will cut the interview and not air it lol or if you're live you'll get like a minute.
There's a reason that Sam Seder is blacklisted from Fox and Jimmy Dore isn't.
I did have a high opinion of Jimmy Dore and I still do not.
wait what
The Dore-knobs claiming he is there to impart left wing ideas to a right wing audience are either coping hard or gifting like their leader.
Also, imagine being historically illiterate and not knowing that the fash consciously appropriate left wing talking points to their own ends.
incredibly suspicious that nobody on this site talks about Assange
His extradition was denied on 4 Jan. I wonder what could have pushed it out of the headlines...
I don't know if the youngs feel the happenings around Assange as much as people in their 30s and older do.
Clearly by your lack of posting every day about M4A, you don't care about it at all.
But you haven't posted about it in 22 days, very poor support from you.
The bourgeois establishment’s actions against Assange are going to doom the leftist project for years to come
how so?
People keep saying this, but Fred Hampton wasn't born in fuckin' Antarctica.
Yeah and we already live in the world in which they assassinated him. Assange should be pardoned, but his fate either way doesn't change our circumstances in regards of what they will do to the leftist project and future Lenins and Hamptons.
No, I agree his fate is immaterial in that regard. All I was attempting to point out is that it's clearly not impossible for a revolutionary figure like Lenin to come from the U.S., an opinion I see floated regularly.
It may be impossible for them to survive to accomplish much, but there's nothing keeping them from existing in the first place.
The people who already hate Dore are just shoring up their position. No need to take this thread seriously. They ignore it when he goes on other leftist platforms but as soon as he goes on Fox News that's it, it's proof he's a secret Nazi. They don't care about Dore until he does something that could be used to prove them right.
Which mainstream news audience is more likely to go left than Tucker's?
Oh, I forgot that Tucker Carlson's viewership is diverse and working class
Did anyone think that any of these people on either side weren't opportunists?
Dore went on to talk about censorship and brought up Assange. Dore convinced Tucker that Assange should be pardoned. All the Dore knobs are saying this is a victory because minds were changed and Tucker's audience saw it. Some are saying Trump could have seen this and could pardon Assange because of this. I think this all is bullshit. Tucker's audience will not go left. If anything it will just make Assange a part of the Q universe or something. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong, but this really won't change anything. Tucker will still spew his nazi talking points, the Fox Audience will still be right wing as hell, and Trump probably won't do shit.
I agree. Tucker is a very skilled propagandist. He excels at bringing on left of center people and framing their (correct) anti-democrat point of view in a way that serves his own fascist point of view. Nothing good will come from going on Tucker Carlson's show unless you are belligerent towards him at every opportunity.
If anything it will just make Assange a part of the Q universe or something.
That's a good thing. It means that on that issue, those people have the correct point of view.
I don't have a lot of faith in Dore scoring that goal when Greenwald couldn't.
Stop trying to make "Dore-knobs" a thing, it won't be a thing. It's like libs trying to come up with cute names for Trump.
I don't know why anyone is trying to defend it at all. There's no need for a defense because the criticisms are weak as fuck. Going on leftist platforms wouldn't change anything either. Because going on TV to say things doesn't change anything. If Fox News wants to give time to people who agree with us, then who cares? Tucker would be spewing his bullshit if Dore wasn't there. If Tucker shuts up for a few minutes while someone says we need to pardon Assange or that tech censorship is bad, then that's fine. Because those are correct stances regardless if Nazis temporarily agree with you on them. Even if Dore is lying about his positions on those two things, they're still correct. To be mad about this is just people wanting to be mad about something that's correct but the wrong people said it and agreed with it. That's some internet-brained shit tbh. Are we really going to be mad because Fox paid money to broadcast correct things?
Hey, if the fascists agree with us on a few points, maybe we can work with them on those things!
That's absolutely what I said. I said let's work with fascists and invite them to be leaders of the leftist party. I don't even know why I typed a paragraph when it fits into one sentence.
Not really a lot of purpose to talking about problems and agreeing on solutions if you're not planning on working together to enact those solutions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuc6C2_Txmw
Why would West bother talking to Tucker if they're not interested in working together? Hmmm. West has been on Dore's show as well. Not good. Very problematic.
You're deflecting, and implying an incredibly false equivalency between Jimmy Dore and Dr. Cornell West.
I'm not deflecting and I'm not comparing West to Dore. You keep insisting that any association with Fox News or Tucker means you're a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. I said that someone saying correct things on Fox News isn't bad. The only response you had to that was to suggest I said that we should work with Nazis. When I pushed sarcasm back, you said that the only reason to discuss problems with Nazis is if you want to work with them. So I post an example of someone who obviously has no interest in working with Nazis nor is a Nazi yet spends time talking about things with Tucker on Fox News. And since you don't have a real answer to that, you are now trying to throw out accusations of deflection (next you'll talk bout gaslighting, sea-lioning, strawmen, red herrings, whataboutism, etc) and once again not reading what I'm writing.
There's no use in agonizing that somewhere some chud might agree that twitter banning everyone but libs is bad. You're not helping chuds by believing it's bad. You're not making chuds in charge of leftism by believing it's bad. It's not fash adjacent to dislike silicon valley. It's not helping them to say it out loud on Fox News or anywhere else.
West is there disagreeing with Tucker and Dore is there specifically to agree with Tucker. The situations just aren't comparable.
Edit: Also, in both cases, Tucker allows the guest to be there because Tucker believes he has something to gain in terms of affecting what the audience believes and that he can leverage the guest's presence to accomplish that. West is there to be Tucker's foil, but I think West is smart enough to use that position to reach Tucker's audience. On the other hand, Dore is there agreeing with Tucker.
The situations just aren’t comparable
Also, in both cases...
If you can say that both cases share a similarity then they're comparable. If Tucker having West on benefits Tucker in some way, then you have to admit that West being there helps Tucker. Which means you think West unwittingly helped a Nazi. If someone can be smart enough to also use Tucker for their own means then so can Dore.
https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/cornel-west-have-to-recognize-that-white-people-have-always-been-part-of-black-freedom-movement
Here's west telling white racists that white people have been part of the Civil Rights movement. A truth that racists are using to their own ends. And West is smart enough to know that. But he says it for them anyways. He also says he's not a fan of Biden on the channel that doesn't like Biden. So he's agreeing with them.
You just have to get over this lib hysteria about Fox News. It's not even the center of the political universe. You're going to have to face the complexity of the world rather than just categorize everything into good and bad based on media consumption or guilt by association. I'm done and withdrawing from the discussion.
If someone can be smart enough to also use Tucker for their own means then so can Dore.
Yeah he "can" be but I don't think he is.
Tucker's audience already want Assange pardoned. I know because I know people who watch Tucker and they all want Assange pardoned because the libs have spent the past four years claiming Assange is a secret Soviet sleeper agent.
I went to a gun show here in Texas a few years ago and someone there had a decal of that face on their truck. They think it's good.
So how is this different from libs knocking Sanders for doing Fox town hall?
Because Bernie Sanders went on push against right wing views and grow the movement, and Jimmy Dore went to reinforce right wing views and grow his audience.
You see, I have delusioned myself into thinking that Dore is a secret fascist; so I'm trying to cancel him for pulling a Shapiro and going on every show he can to spread his ideology.
Considering what he has said about Bill Maher's transphobia, that's unlikely
I'm saying that Maher is so self-absorbed he wouldn't host anyone remotely critical of him on his show. I remember him threatening to kick some Muslim guy out for criticizing him.
Wow, Dore didn't talk about Medicare for All on there? Clearly he doesn't believe in it. What a sellout.
next time I see him being mentioned in an unironically positive manner on this site, I'm lighting myself on fire.
Start wrecklessly chugging some Everclear, son. I was trying to remember who this guy is, and remembered I saw one like 6-10 minute video of his a while back. I thought he seemed drastically more accurate and sensible than the vast majority of shit I could imagine hearing. That's rare for me. Why is everyone in agreement here that there's something bad about him?
Remember, only saw one short video. Not enough to get me watching more, for that matter.
hes a fucking liberal who wants healthcare. hes funny when he makes fun of establishment politicians, but in the end hes a one issue voter.
if tulsi gives him his healthcare, hes down with 'sensible' imperialism and anti-trans rhetoric as long as he gets his.
bah god, at least sam seder flirts with marxists on occasion. dore is literally status quo + m4a.
hes down with ‘sensible’ imperialism
He's one of the only people who's reporting on the fact that Syrian nerve gas attacks were staged (like Robert Fisk, the best Middle-East correspondent of last decades also said btw ), he regelarly has video's against imperialism in Venezuela and has called the coup in Bolivia what it is: a coup. He's also constantly talking about ending the wars and the fact that Obama, who campaigned as a peace candidate, expanded our 2 wars to 7. What sort of imperialism is he in favor of? I'm curious what you got, because you sound like you're just making stuff up.
People who criticize him don't even know what he stands for because they don't listen to his show or watch clips. They don't like him so they don't think it's worth learning anything about him so they don't and just run off what they heard second hand from posts. One person on here one time said something about Dore not telling people to do real action (unionizing, etc). I don't listen to him either but I googled to see what his stances on labor was. Turns out he has a section on his site for joining unions or strikes and had an IWW leader on his show. I still don't listen to Dore but I at least don't assume I know everything about him.
People need to get rid of their poster-brains. I've seen this hate train act the same way for other people. They just get into a stance where they don't like someone because they read in a post one time about something bad and the person who made that post is doing the same thing. So you have a bunch of people playing telephone and getting worked up over it. It's just nuts to see the hate-wagon be so successful. I know Cornell West has gone on Dore's show because I have twitter. Same with Brie Gray Joy and others. For people here to say that they know Dore is a secret Nazi grifter, that means all these smart, experienced, leftists who go on his show somehow missed it. They're too stupid or ignorant to know who Dore is. If we're not implying that the people we like going on Dore are dumb, then that leaves them knowing his a secret Nazi grifter and going on his show must not be a deal-breaker. Either the platform is so valuable that it's worth working with a grifter Nazi or going on these platforms is a meaningless gesture. If either of those are true, then it applies to Dore going on Tucker's show.
What I'm getting at is that no matter how you feel about Dore, you can logic yourself to one conclusion, that it ultimately doesn't matter if he's a grifter. And the likelihood that he is a grifter in the sense that he's lying for money is pretty low. Plus it's way more profitable to grift libs and chuds over online leftists. You don't make millions by pretending to be mad at the US healthcare system. Trust the capitalists to chase what's profitable.
hes a fucking liberal who wants healthcare.
Well what are you?
next time I see him being mentioned in an unironically positive manner on this site, I’m lighting myself on fire.
He was right about #forcethevote.
Force the Vote's power is in messaging. It's about confronting the corporate democrats to show that the left can offer people something bett--- aaand AOC wants to murder your family, the left members of congress hate M4A, they want to see it destroyed, they want to see you destroyed, they're evil, they're sellouts, they're gonna burn in hell, they're all the same as Pelosi, all the same,
aaand AOC wants to murder your family (...) they’re gonna burn in hell
That's a strawman.
they’re sellouts (...) they’re all the same as Pelosi
When Pelosi was new congress, [ she was in favor of single payer-healthcare](https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1341867268196560897, but over the years she backed away from it. Why did that happen? Did she become a more morally evil person who just likes to do evil things, or did she become rich, and did she, by being in the democratic party, started playing a tit-for-that game in which genuine left ideas will never win? The second scenario is happening with AOC and the squad. And it's not all that surprising: all the pressure inside such institutions will lead you in that direction, and only people with very strong ideological convictions who are accountable to a socialist party will be able to withstand that. The current lefties inside congress are atomised individuals without strategic objectives and responsiveness to a socialist organisation. They will fall for the pressure of the democratic machine, and we're seeing that happening in front of our eyes.
This is a hard realisation, it was for me at least, but we have to realise it. To make a comparison: many people who were alive during the civil rights era still are in love with Jim Clyburn, despite the fact that he's no longer the icon he was back then, but just another corporate politician. I do not want us to become like that.
and only people with very strong ideological convictions who are accountable to a socialist party will be able to withstand that
where is that socialist party and whats dore done to help build it? and what exactly is dore's ideology?
its 2021 and theres not been one openly marxist politician at the federal level in us history. we dont even have a socialist base lol.
no, throwing your plate of chicken tendies at one of 5 non-ghoulish people in Congress does not help the cause in any way.
FTV was a temper tantrum born out of impotence.
FTV was a temper tantrum born out of impotence.
"The anti #forcethevote left claims to have a more sophisticated understanding of power, but #forcethevote understands that Pelosi's power comes from her fundraising prowess. Donors dictate behavior -- not polite behavior. The left will never win at an inside game." https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1345458416345632774
when I say 'power' or 'impotence', I dont mean to say it in terms of the factions within congress; I mean to say it in terms of working class consciousness. there is no solidarity to speak of. as the saying goes theres no such thing as a poor american, they're all just down on their luck millionaires.
gray's approach to supporting ftv was the only approach I could get behind. it was an attitude of, "well, we cant pick and choose our moments, and this might be our moment." but even then, what the fuck was the moment? forcing the vote and having it shut down by something like 300 to 35 in the lower house? if that's our 'moment' you should seriously take a second to consider how free politicians are to serve the interests of capital in the US.
and what fundraising prowess would we have hampered? theres an entire industry of privately held healthcare providers with supply chains that span the globe that would have put their money behind a no.
the ftv movement motivated me to actually start reading theory because it made me realize much of the people I considered to be on 'the left' are ideologically undisciplined folks who benefit from the american empire and just want m4a to increase their quality of life.
where is that socialist party
A lot of people believed DSA was that, but it's now undeniable that they're not.
throwing your plate of chicken tendies at one of 5 non-ghoulish people in Congress
This is not a serious criticism, but a ridiculous analogy that in no way addresses the points I was making.
born out of impotence.
In a sense I actually agree with this, but because #forcethevote showed that the parliamentary left is impotent, as opposed to what many people believed.
the chicken tendies reference is a criticism based around a ridiculous meme. it makes humor out of the source of rage/anger which is generally impotent. as you said you dont disagree with that point.
the dsa is obligated to hold aoc accountable as their endorsement of her is a big part of why she's in office. but this issue wasn't a big controversy within the dsa, as the issue was purely a matter of tactics, not strategy.
when the dsa only has a right to hold 4 or so congresspeople to account, they cant do a whole lot in terms of tactics because they really cant achieve shit.
if a floor vote had been held, do you think m4a would have been passed? if you answer yes you are wrong. meaning, if you're right, this controversy was a matter of political theater; pure tactics. even its advocates saw it as such.
at the time this controversy was going on, there was a controversy over the 2k checks. keep in mind, most republican voters were outraged over McConnell's refusal to follow trump's recomendation of 2k checks. even then, the Senate agreed near unanimously to vote against holding a vote for 2k checks(around 88 to 12). this is to say, the republicans told their supporters to eat shit, while the democrats tried to deceive their supporters with a performative fight.
if you give a shit about reform through the electoral process, ask yourself why McConnell represents the 3rd most impoverished state in the country. then realize the only difference between him and the democratic establishment is performative woke shit.
tl;dr no hope in america. we're too dumb, glutonous and enriched by imperialism to want to disturb the current order. leftist infighting is also bad, especially when its over a theatrical production.
It would be a strawman of most FTV supporters, whom I respect. It's not a strawman of Jimmy Dore.
It is, because he's not saying AOC wants to kill you, that's ridiculous. I don't understand why you insist on defending this point, instead of adressing the analysis which I made? I hope that on this site we all still understand we're comrades who might not agree on everything, but at least argue in good faith.
Jimmy Dore literally said on his show that AOC is trying to prevent Medicare for all from passing. If you really want I can get the clip somehow
How else are you supposed to convert chuds?
Majority report is lib to left
Dore is chud to left pipeline.
the problem with chud-to-left pipeline is that too often, you end up turning chuds to chuds-who-want-m4a-but-still-hate-immigrants.
You tell those chuds they have a choice, cooperate with leftists to get leftist policies passed or get nothing at all while immigrants still come anyway.
Right. Because leftists decide the terms in this country. Not chuds.
Well chuds don't decide the terms either, in terms of social and economic policies. It would be more accurate to say they have been losing, considering that immigration is still a thing, more and more drugs are being legalized, same-sex marriage legalization etc. In terms of economic policies, working class chuds keep pushing for policies that hurt them(until very recently with the rise of right-populism). But with the failure of right-populism, they're not even getting that.
I think this is something that leftists have to realize, chuds are losing as badly as we are. It is only the capitalist class that is winning.
Lmao. Tell that the when a chud doesn’t get away with murdering black people on a daily basis or are basically treated with kid gloves after mass shootings.
I'm talking about the average chud. The average chud, who is still a human being, is fundamentally as powerless as you are.
while i agree both leftists and chuds are powerless when compared to the capitalist class, the chuds (white, cis, male) have more power especially over others.
the problem with chud-to-left pipeline is that too often, you end up turning chuds to chuds-who-want-m4a-but-still-hate-immigrants.
a) Isn't that better than the situation before?
b) A materialist understanding of class consciousness entails that people learn the mosst by doing. That implies that the best way to convince someone that immigrants aren't their enemy isn't by debating him, but by organising struggle for healthcare (for example) where he experiences that non-white people are on his side.
Rogan is just a spinning pipeline that'll throw you in a random direction
As I said above, it would be great for more people on the left to go on Fox News, and other right-wing media.
However, if they are going to just be yucking it up with people like Tucker Carlson, while attacking liberals or even actual leftists, using chud talking points, I fail to see how that helps anybody move to the left.
imo only extraordinary humans create pipelines to the left. if not for Michael Brooks I'd still be a chud.
on the other hand, dumbfucks like rogan can create pipelines to the right. because right is the general ideology of the western world, it doesnt take much of a push.
dore is just a dumbfuck who experienced the inhumanity of the american healthcare system. if not for him declaring bankruptcy as a result of bad health, he'd probs be a trump supporter. hes got no ideological integrity to speak of.
Really? How is it that his comment section is awash in unrepentant chuds. Where is the conversion?
I always look for this "a washed in" . But only ever see a bit of chuddery. But you do you.
