The Boogaloo Boys are Nazis and not to be trusted.
The thing about that though is boogaloo boys are very much the farce of the brown and black shirts of past fascism. Will they side with capital? Probably yes, but it's not because they're secretly full blown fascists, it's because they're idiots who are completely wrapped in capitalist realism.
These are fascisms useful idiots.
If you were downvoting people who said "Jimmy Dore is bad, he's not our friend" during the AOC/FTV stuff and calling us libs, it's time to eat your crow.
Is it just me, or does he seem less popular here now that the mods have largely cleaned the site of transphobes? Maybe it's just coincidence, but I wonder how much overlap exists there.
One of my comments about him in one of those threads was:
If Jimmy Dore were a poster on chapo dot chat, he would have been banned for transphobia long ago.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.He was a Tulsi stan at one point so it wouldn't be surprising if there was
really dpnz if u were sayin just that or if you were against force the vote. force the vote is good. jimmy dore is not. even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I was calling Jimmy a grifter who says whatever he thinks will make people angry and get him clicks. I'm not against FTV.
How is jimmy dore more a a grifter than MSNBC radlibs like Sam Seder? IMHO, all "left" and liberal youtubers are a joke.
I'm all for white people trying to deprogram racist whites.
Doesn't mean I have to partner with any of them. The energy and outrage being expended over this whole thing is embarrassing and is another example of how utterly futile and weak the twitter/youtube/podcast left is. Most of these stupidasses on both sides already forgot about the "organizing" and "pushing Biden left" garbage they were spewing just a month ago.
the thing is to me personally, there is a massive amount of population who don’t vote/stopped voting and become either disenfranchised in one way or another or apolitical and those are the people we should be focusing more of our energy on. Not people who make holocaust jokes or people who are or aligned with terfs and reactionaries. Fuck that. You spend WAYYY to much time “debating” with these people and vast vast majority of the time it’s fruitless. Why bother when you can work on more open minded people who aren’t filled with a ton of asinine beliefs?
There was a point in my life where I thought I could 'reform' or otherwise influence people like that but it has never been successful. Even if they concede one point they got dozens others that are just so far gone we're not even on the same realm of reasoning.
I’m all for white people trying to deprogram racist whites.
I'm not saying I disagree, but I find myself more and more agreeing with the thesis of Settlers; and I'm really starting to think the left in America should put zero extra effort into "deprogramming whites" and instead use that energy to radicalize communities of color.
he unified STREET GANGS of, like, actual upstanding criminals against their common oppressor. the libs really need to forget his name or follow his example.
A lot of weirdos think Fred Hampton was killed because he was the Klan Whisperer or something I beg of them read literally anything about Fred Hampton
I'm a white leftist. I love Fred Hampton.
Partnering with the Boogaloo Boys is not a Fred Hampton thing to do.
Jimmy Vore has been an absolute disaster for the left. It's always the smoothest tulsi gabbard stans (and the really weird non-leftist assange SUPER FANS) that get into my menchies whenever i make fun of this jaggoff comedian. They are all the same pretty much, also a lot of them seem to be boomers or gen-xers
Next time I post FTV shit I'll @ ping you to tell you not to look at that thread
Just as inconsequential for us as FTV (which is not M4A, which obviously would be massively consequential).
there is something to say about educating the poor people on the right who are merely victims of their own lack of education and propaganda. that said, if they've already cliqued into some kind of fucking group of racists, they're very much a lost cause, and dore should really be aware of fucking optics because this horrible take is fodder to use against people who backed him up in his forcethevote shit.
if dore can re-educate these fucking assholes, i'll eat my words, but hahahaha yeah fuckin right, good luck fucker.
have you heard most of jimmy dore? he's just unhinged and doesn't think things all the way through. he just opens his mouth.
i don't think he's an apologist, i think he's ignorant. he doesn't understand what the fuck he's saying. a class reductionist to the extreme. he just doesn't get it all the way.
A class reductionist that thinks that class politics = yelling loudly on the Youtubes.
youtube is just a media form. i don't fault cody from somemorenews for using youtube, and i don't fault people for getting pissed off and yelling.
i fault dore for being an asshat that hurts us. especially when he get certain points right, but then ruins his rep and therefore hurts the message he's conveying by being "obtuse."
The thing I was criticizing him on was his insistence that if force the vote was successful, centrist democrats would simply be FORCED to vote in M4A, that as long as AOC and friends withheld their vote, we would get M4A. Completely disregarding the historical precedent of how universal healthcare or any socdem policy has ever come about. What no theory does to a mf
Don't get me wrong I love yelling Youtubers :matt:
it'd be pretty funny to watch the fucking corporate overlords just be like 'sorry nancy, you're just going to have to finally quit and enjoy your hundreds of millions of dollars' tho. not even a fuckin ding in the armor.
"The Boogaloo" is an inherently fash concept. Buuuuut many people will be drawn into it because liberalism is failing them and they don't see other alternatives available.
Actually working with boogs is a stupid thing to do, but different people mean very different things when they say that.
Aligning with, or voicing any sort of support, critical or not, for the boog movement is a shit idea.
Jimmy Dore is dead to me. Fuck him.
But refusing to open up lines of communication with people who are sympathetic to the boog movement, is also a shit idea.
I'm talking about counter recruitment.
If people are getting drawn into it, it only hurts, maybe even dooms, us, if we refuse to even try to connect with boog sympathizers before they fall further down that rabbit hole.
Lots of people on the left nowadays equate interacting with people sympathetic to fascism as aligning with fascism.
And that's. not. the. same. thing.
Counter recruitment is tough, tricky, draining, not for everyone, and never near as effective as it should be.
But if the modern left, as a whole, never offers people an off ramp on the road to fascism, they'll never take it.And then we're fucked.
"It behoves us to overcome Fascism ideologically and politically. This imposes enormous tasks on us. We must realise that Fascism is a movement of the disappointed and of those whose existence is ruined. Therefore, we must endeavour either to win over or to neutralise those wide masses who are still in the Fascist camp. I wish to emphasise the importance of our realising that we must struggle ideologically for the possession of the soul of these masses. We must realise that they are not only trying to escape from their present tribulations, but that they are longing for a new philosophy. We must come out of the narrow limits of our present activity."
"We must take up the struggle more energetically not only for the souls of proletarians that have fallen to fascism but for those of small and medium bourgeois, small peasants, intellectuals—in a word, all the layers that are placed today, by their economic and social position, in increasingly sharp conflict with large-scale capitalism."
[...]
"If the new masses that we must attract do not come to us, we must find them and talk to them in their own language, one corresponding to how they see things, without giving up the slightest bit of our Communist outlook."The people playing dress up with Hawaiian shirts and thousands of dollars in kit---you know, the actual Boogaloo people who are it's public face, and not just people with idle leanings---are not being failed by liberalism.
This isn't a bit I'm doing, this is me saying that if we stay the course we're on, we're fucked.
The post I replied to with ppb is you taking my words in incredibly bad faith and nothing more.
I said there's a difference between support and counter recruitment.
Didn't even criticize your post because I didn't know what you meant by it.
So I sketched out two things they could mean.
One I agree with.
One I disagree with
I also outright said fuck Jimmy DoreYou did the whole "none of these people are reachable" bit, I disagreed, you PPB'ed me.
If I'm not understanding your point, please help me to.
What does supporting the boog mean to you?
Is reaching out to people who are sympathetic to the boog aesthetic, as unabashed socialists, supporting them?
Is buying a low end rifle, wish kit, and a Hawaiian shirt a sign that someone's unreachable?
Because that's what I took from your reply.
I genuinely don't know how to interpret it any other way.
They may appear “reactionary” to self-proclaimed leftists but are very much prone for conversion. If we don’t do that, the fascists will win over their support.
Nothing in this post is opposed to this. Not a word.
What I can say from my experience is that the vast majority of the working people are apolitical and have no coherent ideology.
This has been my experience as well. There's obviously a line to not cross. Anyone putting out 6MWE DOTR and/or 1488 vibes I stay far the fuck away from.
But most people tend to be a swirling mishmash of very different, and usually contradictory, viewpoints.
You did the whole “none of these people are reachable” bit
No, I didn't. Not even close.
Done wasting time with this bad faith shit.
No, I didn’t. Not even close.
You did state that if people have the money for the getup, they can't be failed by liberalism.
Maybe that's not the same, but I strongly object nonetheless
I have a few firearms.
I have some cheap yet functional and practical tactical gear.
And I even have a couple Hawaiian shirts: they were gifts.I'd never ever put the third together with the first two, but I have literally everything needed to make a boog outfit in my home, right now
I've personally been failed by liberalism and live well below the poverty line.
I just saved, cut expenses, eating more cheaply, and used my tax returns and stimulus money on the first two things.Many gun stores have layaway plans.
Plenty of people have televisions, computers, videogame systems, and phones, that are more expensive than a decent low end AR-15.
If that's not the "winning argument" I think it is, I really would like to know why.
I'll even pinky promise not to reply to it.
Because I still genuinely don't see how someone who can afford a boog outfit can't also be failed by liberalism.
There are certain boog spokespeople who are emerging, and they're almost certainly lost causes.
That I do agree on.Some of them are also sporting SCARs with Trijicons and shit like that. I tend to see those kinds identifying as and representing "Boogaloo boys" publicly moreso than the budget store kit. And this post isn't about random sympathizers sitting at home, it's about the guys traveling across the country to marches who are repping the brand, so to speak.
Breaking my rule to state that I do agree with that. The people who are emerging as the spokespeople are most likely not reachable.
Not every single person sympathetic to the boog movement has "thousands of dollars worth of kit."
You're taking a certain subsection then turning them into a monolith, as if they represent everyone attracted to it
The boog isn't a central org.
Anyone can go to their thrift store, buy some gaudy shirts, buy a shitty Hi-Point Carbine, Kel-Tec, or midrange M&P sport, buy the rest of their kit through Wish, then go out in public with that combination, and they're now "it's public face."Many of the kitted out boogs I've seen have a low end rifle and shitty china gear. I could buy an entire boog getup, rifle included, with the contents of my tax return.
If you're buying a Boogaloo cosplay kit then you're well past being merely "adjacent" or "sympathetic." And you're also likely not being failed by liberalism; that said kit costs hundreds rather than thousands isn't the winning argument that you think it is.
So, backtracking if I'm allowed to, because I misread what you said then got mad about what I misread.
I'll own up to that.
That's totally 100% my bad.I'm a fucking dolt, when it comes to reading comprehension sometimes.
What makes having the money for boog kit different than having the money for SRA kit?
Because oftentimes the only difference is the Hawaiian shirt
The kitted out SRA member is a comrade sure, but they had to spend the same amount of money that somehow disqualifies the boog, when the only physical difference in kit is the Hawaiian shirt, which have always been a thrift store staple.
No worries.
I never said don't try to convert people. But you'll probably have a better success rate if you don't begin with the guys wearing American flag bandanas.
Counter recruitment isn't the same as conversion/radicalization, fwiw.
If I wasn't clear about that, I apologize.
The Zetkin quote did mention both tactics. If not one, then the other, so that could have contributed to the misunderstanding.
It's reaching out those most vulnerable to being radicalized by reactionaries and attempting to stop them from being so, by laying bare what the ideology they're sliding into is, all at once.
And those are the people wearing american flag bandanas, unfortunately.
ETA: If a proto-chud stays a proto-chud, but they're now unwilling to put themselves in fight the for reactionary causes, that's still a win.
Also, yes, you you totally gotta make sure you aren't being played, a'la Daryl Davis.
The people he reaches out to are outright unabashed racists and far beyond that line of engagement.
But people wearing Hawaiian shirts or flag bandanas aren't. Or at least aren't merely by nature of them wearing Hawaiian shirts or flag bandanas.
A lot of people here defended Jimmy Dore during the "force the vote" debate.
Jimmy Dore is now interviewing Boogs.
not that i've seen we're just screaming into the void about how insane of an idea it is. like just historically is this not exactly what happened with the SPD?
There are multiple people in this thread concern trolling about how we can't write off everyone who is compelled by Boogaloos as a fascist and are people who can be reached out to.
I don't know why working with the fash keeps coming back when so many people here hate the social democrats for doing the same thing lol.
