https://lemmy.world/post/6313843
The liberal brainwashing is complete, they're as rabid as neo-cons.
More Reddit than Reddit themselves.
Also u/ilovethebomb is a notorious Ukraine shill, I've seen them every time this war comes up. They're not the one-off mindless innocent lib, they purposely go on Lemmygrad to be angry and get owned.
Is it Reddit all the way down?
Always been.
*removed externally hosted image*
More Reddit than Reddit themselves.
You can remove the Redditor from Reddit, but you can't remove Reddit from the Redditor.
More Reddit than Reddit
To the tune of White Zombie's More Human than Human
Crazy. TIL
No! You fucking did not just learn that! You just saw someone on an anonymous internet forum assert it. That does not count as learning it! Jesus fucking christ!
No because even machines back propagate and integrate new data with what they’ve learned before
They want to believe it, so the source is irrelevant. This is how most Liberal learning goes.
Man. These fuckers out here trashing Code Pink. Respect to that group, they've been active since the Iraq war invasion and libs have gone from loving them to hating them.
Death to America
Those same libs probably initially hated them at the beginning of the Iraq war too. Liberals were fully on board with the war and with calling anybody who didn't support it un-American.
Maybe? I don't really remember. I want to say that there was a lot of support for Cindy Sheenan when she camped outside Bush 's Texas ranch but I'm not sure how long that support lasted either
As long as Bush was in office. There were plenty of libs whose opposition to the war hinges entirely on Dubya, once he was out they bandwagoned on the Libyan war.
To be fair to them, Code Pink is AFAIK pretty rad and they're doing good work.
When you think about it, the CPC is probably the greatest anti war org on the planet. It it reacted to America's repeated provocations with anything less than complete calm and restraint, we'd probably all be dead.
if you think about it anyone who criticises war is a traitor.
I agree with this, but think being a traitor to AmeriKKKa is good
I think anyone who opposes the US should be executed. Also gommulism 1984
Isn't it funny how these peaceniks only come out against war when the tide turns in Ukraine's favor
What?
I know the U.S. is breaking international law to give them seized Iranian weapons and ammunition, but every single source basically agrees they're bleeding out for inches
I know propaganda is a hell of a drug, but still!
Completely botching a counter offensive because NATO tactics and weapons suck ass is the tide turning in Ukraine's favour apparently.
Well to be fair there is also Ukrainian corruption and the simple fact that Russia is just the bigger power
there is no tactic that could make Ukraine capable of winning this war they already lost at the strategic level before it even started
They needed NATO to get directly involved (NO FLY ZONES!!! ARTICLE 5!!) or they needed NATO economic pressure to heavily damage Russia. Neither happened, so they are shit out of luck and just drawing out an inevitable defeat
That is already a self own, it explicitly admits we were right all along, that Russia was winning for the past 18 months which is something they denied throughout.
Lol peacenik used unironically, this war is really turning some people into the dad from Night of the Living Dead
Peace? Traitors! Kill them! More war! More death! Die! Die! Die! More blood for the blood god!
The war ends when [thing that's never going to happen] happens.
Why can't they acknowledge that they just don't want the war to end? That they just want to punish Russia by bogging them down in a 20 year war like Afghanistan, no matter the cost to the Ukrainian people.
I think a lot of people have a completely non-material, vibes based, idealistic view of warfare. It's not about soldiers and missiles and satellites and industry, it's just good guys and bad guys and the good guys should win because they're the good guys.
soldiers and missiles and satellites and industry
many of them actually go bonkers for that shit. The war being the main headline generator gives them an excuse to indulge in their obsessive jingoism and military fetish because it's topical and they get to show off how smart they are by regurgitating specs they memorized from Lockheed Martin brochures.
You cant just come in here with a username like "kerry4ever". We have communal trauma! (sorry joke you probably wont get lol)
Because they can just blame Russia for everything and pretend they have a moral highground. Checkmate chinese propoganda bot.
We have to keep beating the dead corpse of the USSR because it helps us ignore our home in the corpse of capitalism
And after the area controlled by Russia is officially sanded l annexed to the Russian Federation, what are they going to do?
Claim victory because a hundred trillion billion million Russians died. Reality is no obstacle to liberal delusions.
What does the average hexbear user think should happen in Ukraine? Should Russia keep the land that they have gotten?
It doesn’t matter whose “land” it is, the killing has to stop. If that can be accomplished by moving some imaginary lines on a map, it should be done immediately.
Sounds good but we know it doesn't work that way, yet. How much aggression and land grabbing should Russia be allowed?
- This is not a simple land grab.
- How many Ukranians are you, from the comfort of home, willing to sacrifice to support whatever principle you believe is at issue here? If a million more die in this war, will it still be worth it? Two million?
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It's never simple but it is a land grab. De facto - Russia didn't have it before they sent in the troops.
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I'm not willing to sacrifice any. I don't like imperialism whether by NATO or Russia. I don't like how Ukraine was run before the invasion. I don't like that my country, USA, is funding wars around the world but this situation isn't as simple as US bad, Russia good. Russia is the obvious aggressor here again Ukraine though.
How much Russian aggression is the right amount?
Russia did have parts of Ukraine, and those parts were then couped in 2014. But of course, history goes further than 2014 - both countries have wrestled for it for over a hundred years. I don't know my medieval history, but I do know that Ukraine was mostly under the rule of Russian royalty from the 1700s onwards.
I would say the turning point, and when medieval history becomes contemporary was when the Russian Revolution took control of Russia from the Tsars. The White Army (Tsarists, enslavers of peasantry) then retreated to Ukraine and collaborated with other Empires of the day to attempt to reinstall themselves as rulers of Russia.
They continued to attack the Russian revolution, so war was waged against them in Ukraine to get rid of them. Other peasant groups fought against them too. The first World War complicates things, but The White Army's remaining forces eventually lost. There's more wrestling for the land between Anarchists and Communists and European capitalist forces. The Makhnovist Anarchists eventually were defeated or subsumed by Bolsheviks, and Ukraine joined Russia as a republic.
The next change of leadership comes with Nazi Occupation.
Nazis waged war against Russia from Ukraine and has collaborators. The Nazis eventually lose, and the USSR takes control of the region again to de nazify it. In this time after the war, the CIA arms Nazis and spreads right wing propaganda in the region through operations such as Bloodstone and Red Sox.
Time goes by, and the Soviet Union collapses. Ukraine becomes fully autonomous for the first time in about 200 years. The west continues to use Ukraine as a bulwark against now capitalist Russia, in an attempt to make sure Russia doesn't become a global power again and disrupt their hegemony. From here on out it's capitalist warfare between Russia and Ukraine/The West. Russia tries to stake it's claim in certain Ukrainian lands where there is a Russian ethnic majority and independence movement. Then there's crisis in 2004, and then eventual derussification policies lead up to the 2014 western backed coup against the Russian majority regions by way of installing a puppet leader.
So who really has a right to it? I don't take either side, but I do think that the Russian regions will be more prosperous if they are taken back by Russia. Ukraine post war will be a total wasteland of western 'development' - there will be no social safety net and it will be full of Nazis.
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You either drank the NATO kool aid, or you're not engaging in good faith. The situation is what it is, Westerners are kicking back in their armchairs and sending thousands of Ukrainians to die over farmhouses in Bakhmut; it doesn't matter if there could be some noble justification that maybe, just maybe, the next human wave Ukraine sends will get Russia to back off. If you don't want to "allow" Russian aggression, how about you don't engage in a decade of expansionist brinkmanship?
The expansion of NATO by means of economic diplomacy is not at the same level of human misery as what Russia is doing militarily. Yes, yes, capitalism is exploitative, I'm not denying that, I just don't think that Russia should get a free pass to invade.
How do you reconcile Putin's previously expressed desire to possibly join NATO? https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-putin-says-discussed-joining-nato-with-clinton/28526757.html
I don't disagree, Russia has no right to continue (or to have started) the war either. But what I think about Russia doesn't matter, what matters is we are workers in countries that are bankrolling Ukraine in the war and we can have meaningful political impact on the war by dismissing false consciousness. I can't do anything to get Putin to stop the war. But if enough workers in NATO aligned countries make it clear they won't stand for the ransacking of Ukraine, the war machine won't be able to keep moving without its gears.
Anyway, I think Putin was pretty naive to want to join NATO lol. It's a big club, and Russia ain't in it (by design).
You're insinuating that I asked a loaded question but that's BS. Russia attempted and failed to take Kyiv. That's more than just trying to secure ethnically Russian lands. That is blatant aggression.
And when was the last time that NATO invaded Russia?
Putin floated the idea of joining NATO but didn't like the requirements. Russia imperialism is well known and obvious.
I don't get this defending of Russia by leftists. Both NATO and Russia are bad in this case.
Apparently you're not aware of NATO's long history of working to emisserate and rob people in Russia and the rest of the former USSR, so I'm curious to know why you think they're bad. Actually, I'm not curious. From the bottom of my heart, I don't care.
So far they've taken the land they claimed they wanted before the war and have now dug in and are just defending the land theyve taken so how about that much.
How much aggression and brinksmanship should Natoma be allowed since we're doing hypotheticals?
But you're ignoring that Russia tried to take Kyiv and failed. This is not a hypothetical but pretty clearly more than just securing ethnically Russian lands and were instead trying to take all of Ukraine for the perceived threat of NATO. NATO hasn't militarily moved on Russian and had actually opening up economically (yes, through capitalism and exploitation but we can't expect a scorpion to not sting).
How much brinkmanship should be allowed by NATO? As long as they aren't directly invading other countries I'm willing to give them more leeway than Russian. Both suck.
Yea when you're doing an offensive you target command centers farther into the country doesn't mean they're trying to take the city.
Ukraine has struck Russian cities during their "counteroffensive" does that mean they're actually just using this a stepping stone to invade Russia.
How much brinkmanship should be allowed by NATO? As long as they aren't directly invading other countries I'm willing to give them more leeway than Russian. Both suck
Ok if your position is "as long as there aren't literally nato boots on the ground nothing they do is out of line" im going to completely disregard ypur opinion because tou just admitted your a hypocrite. So by your rules america was wrong to get upset about the ussr wanting to put nukes on cuba? Because apparently thats a-ok since there werent literally russian boots on americas mainland.
Seems like americas foreign policy would disagree with you there based on thebfactvwr almost started a wprld war over it.
Mostly pro-Russian areas go to Russia and the war ends? Yeah sounds fine to me. I would say it doesn't make all that much a difference which capitalist oligarchy they're living under, but Ukraine is probably going to be fucked over economically by the West (while trying to recover from the war) for long after the war is over, so being part of Russia is probably better for the people. Ukraine has already started privatizing assets they don't even control. Also the Nazis probably won't take too kindly to the people who accepted Russian rule in order to live their lives like normal ("collaborators"), so throwing them into the hands of those Nazis might not be great.
I don't know what Russia is willing to accept at this point, but best case for Ukraine is giving up Crimea, getting the rest of the land back, and giving autonomy to the Donbass. Which yeah that might be alright too, except for the concerns I gave above. There would definitely need to be some guarantee for the safety of the people in those regions, especially the DPR and LPR. I doubt Russia would accept that anyway. They would have at the beginning of the war, but probably not now.
should doesn't really factor into it they're going to keep it because they have it and no one can make them give it back
Russia should actually take more. Odessa and all of the Donbas. Ukraine should be landlocked, regime changed and kept perpetually de-militarized. If they try to ever join NATO again they should be destroyed again and another half their land taken. Repeat until they learn their lesson and stop trying to join NATO.
Self determination be damned. Be reliant on what other capitalist countries determine is the best course?
That is a horrible leftist take.
This is textbook virtue signalling. Competing with one another about who can most aggressively agree with the consensus position. There's no effort to understand anything here, just farting and sniffing.
Seems to be the norm now, this is all I see outside of hexbear and a few other pockets.
It’s the inevitable result of reddit-style design, imo, particularly with regard to having downvotes. Downvotes discourage people from making controversial comments, because even if you’re correct and lots of people agree with you, your comments can still be buried or limited in visibility if enough people dislike them. The downvote button isn’t supposed to be the disagree button, but in real terms that’s what it is.
If comments that people agree with get more visibility, and things people disagree with get less visibility, then the natural result is going to be that people learn to make comments that everyone agrees with. A recipe for banality.
Hexbear has no downvotes so it functions more like twitter. You can’t just hit the dislike button and move on, so if you want to express dislike or disagreement, you have to comment and amplify, which reddit people hate. They think it’s brigading or trolling because, despite their ostensible love of debate, they don’t actually want to discuss anything.
Using the words "authoritarian regime" sets off either state department bot alarm bells or fallen-for-propaganda alarm bells.
Even if a country is that, in my head that's a term that journalists use for "the bad countries" and I could never say it sincerely.
Every country has an authoritarian regime, it came free with your nation state.
No see its not authoritarian if you have two parties that differ only on a handful of wedge issues that you can choose between.
Anytime the government does anything it needs authority. Any society aside from the perfect anarchist utopia is “authoritarian”.
Throwing a tantrum over “authoritarianism” in the abstract is completely meaningless. It’s exactly the same as crying that the government did “something”. Yeah of course the government is authoritarian, that’s how governments work. Clearly liberals have no issues with some form of government existing, so there’s literally zero substance at all to work with here. It’s a nebulous word that’s devolved to mean nothing. It’s like a screwdriver: you can use it to assemble furniture or you can stab someone to death with it. I don’t see anyone publishing articles about “screwdriverism”.
The only time critiques of “authoritarianism” are meaningful is when they come from anarchists. Anything else is disingenuous.
I think we said no 'yakub' stuff? I missed that struggle session, but its being reported so I'ma just do my modly duty here comrade. Apologies.
I'm gonna keep Yakub posting. I apparently am not invited to the hall monitor meetings where rules are discussed and not announced to the site, but you cannot stop me from spreading the truth about Yakubian magicks
Your average Chinese person could probably give less of a shit about the USA that foaming feral burgers do about China who live in their brain 24/7 and are responsible for literally everything bad in the world.
The liberal has the same brainwormed obsession with China and Russia, as conservatives and fascists do with trans people.
Sometimes I bang my GI Joe and my Skeletor figurines together and pretend it's the Russo-Ukrainian War. I'll lay there for hours on my mom's floor saying "pew pew pew" while the Ukrainian GI Joe drops drone grenades on the RuZZian Skeletor. I'll dismember him bit by bit as I laugh in my head. Many times I've written the Ukrainian Army and suggested new tactics based on my recreations of the drone videos. Once I said they should drop acid bombs and they replied "thank".
Could have stopped the rabies outbreak if we'd heeded the advise of the DPRK. Now all the liberals are hiding their Biden bites and insisting it is the tankies who are rabid for, uh...
it says here "wanting to withdraw the tanks"
ah yes, but, you see, what you don't see here is that we're actually the Adults In The Room and we're doing Adulting, a higher-order concept that your ignoramus brain could never understand, tankie
Ukraine will fight to the last man and woman, I promise you that from my air-conditioned wine cave!
hey, that’s pretty good
