see, i don't repeat "western" talking points. imperialism bad. militaries bad. foreign militaries are NO LESS BAD because of red flags. pooh bear bad for continuing to entrench capitalism in formerly socialist china, while slowly gutting the socialism, and you people just suck his dick because the capitalism there is still in the early phase where it still has something to prove, is still bribing the workers to let go of the means of fucking production, is still getting its filthy fucking tentacles around their fucking souls.
sometimes, the americans and english storm normandy to do some very necessary murder of fascists, even if it's for entirely the wrong reasons. sometimes, the CIA kills someone whose death actually makes the world a better place (just by the law of statistics it's gotta happen pretty often) even if they cause an entire regional of the world to become more skeptical of vaccines and foreign medical aid in general. sometimes, a general atomics reaper drone blows up a schoolbus that bad a future hitler on it (making two more future hitlers, because means are ends)
ive been pursued harassed by local police. I've been attacked by white nationalists. the CIA is basically the devil to me, not just in ideals, but part of my personal childhood fucking trauma. and part of their propaganda? is seeming like they're more competent than they are. is appearing to be everywhere. it's a fucking panopticon gambit, and you're falling for it. read some fucking theory. as competent as some of their monsters are (and some are!) they are not all powerful, and even their best are prone to failure. if there are plants in your organization, they're more likely assets than agents, and that says more about your supposed people than it does about them.
Jokes change context when uttered by people other than the original group, you cant just say "Its not racist for white westerners to say it because the joke originated with Chinese people, also its epic trolling so it doesnt even matter if its racist because I think its cool".
Like come on this is some "But they call each other the N word" shit.
Literally every critique against "AES" is dismissed as "western takes", if it isn't, then "you're not supposed to talk about it", etc., except if it's coming from MLs
I don't know how to tell you without sounding condescending that if your views on anarchists are coming from whatever you read by them on reddit than you have very shallow experiences with anarchism,
its not that ML's historically criticize anarchists, it's that they historically kill anarchists, or tell us we're disorganized children and to shut the fuck up and take charge of everything and let spain fall to fascism when an anarchist structure with soviet support would have done a much better job stopping that.
kill. like with murder. i feel like that's worse. if you can't find it in the history books, perhaps it's because you weren't looking?
and no, modern comunists are not the flawed fucked up assholes of old. but if we're talking about history, lets not white-wash anything. everybody sucked. everybody. every. single. fucking. person. if there were good guys, we wouldn't be here. so shut the fuck up and stop pretending your intellectual forebears are "pure" or some shit. work on the ideas. dissect the ideas. find a less awful way forward, and suck less IN THE WAYS YOU THINK MOST EFFECTIVE FOR DOING THAT, and don't pitch your 'enlightenedcentrism' shit to anarchists; we're like the worst people for that.
I literally said *there are no good guys in history. if there were; we wouldn't be here."
and uncritical support of a state going capitalist and turning away from socialism? yeah that's stupid. tankies who do that uncritically are not acting in their right minds. its a serious fucked up problem and I think ML's should fucking do better. we all know how capitalism goes, so why are you people sucking its dick so rabidly?
its not that a lot of anarchists are parroting americanisms, it's that a lot of americans are juuuuuuuust starting to be babby anarchists and start adopting/appropriating our stuff. its a messy time, and maybe it's what building sympathy looks like.
they were more strictly organized, lost the international forces when they decided they needed to fucking hierarchalize everything rather than letting them just operate as their own side thing (they could, at LEAST, have been useful idiots), killed morale, etc. "more organized" is not "better organized". im not saying either tactic would have necessarily won; i don't know enough about the military history of the conflict, and what I know of the political history of it always put it at long odds, but the soviets fucked up big and throw away buckets of assets in a specifically tankie sort of way.
wait, a big army of assorted leftists FIGHTING FASCISTS IN A PROXY WAR AGAINST HITLER AND MUSSOLINI didn't deserve... well that says a lot of what the soviets (in your mind) actually stand for, doesn't it?
and yeah, maybe if half your army is anarchists and volunteers who literally came across the ocean to join you, a strict soviet style structure isn't the smartest fucking move
fucking libs, as long as they're gonna keep fighting, deserve support against fascists.
I think you're exaggerating how close it was to "religion", because if it really was that close the Anarchists would have killed the advisors, castrated them and shoved their genitals in their mouth like they did the clergy of Spain.
What about the point being to think about and analyze stuff because thats an invaluable skill for marxists to hone? No one ever said "just posting" china-criticisms, I'm pushing back against you saying NO criticisms. And no, I'm not talking genocide shit, I'm saying we should make more of a habit of actually analyzing what china is doing, right and wrong, for the purpose of learning and thinking about a present example of the system and what it's doing/ how it might change/ perspectives for the future
Again, analysis is one thing, and overt criticism is another.
No it's not. Analysis can and often does involve overt criticism, and it's clear dipshits like yourself twist in knots to shut down discussions rather than engage seriously in them, hence the obviosuly absurd conditional of talking about anarchists bad so therefore I can ignore any other attempt to engage in this shit.
oh my god she so is. like, wow does that woman know how to... bake a delicious wholesome cake for entirely platonic friendtime activity which was exactly how I always planned to end this sentence.
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"I'll only act how I think people should act if other people do it first" harumph
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If there was ever a place to discuss criticisms and do analysis of AES, ML or anarchist or otherwise, this site is it
Uncritical support (in a place like this where we're among comrades) of things you have criticisms of is baffling
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If that turned you away from anarchism, you never were one.
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see, i don't repeat "western" talking points. imperialism bad. militaries bad. foreign militaries are NO LESS BAD because of red flags. pooh bear bad for continuing to entrench capitalism in formerly socialist china, while slowly gutting the socialism, and you people just suck his dick because the capitalism there is still in the early phase where it still has something to prove, is still bribing the workers to let go of the means of fucking production, is still getting its filthy fucking tentacles around their fucking souls.
sometimes, the americans and english storm normandy to do some very necessary murder of fascists, even if it's for entirely the wrong reasons. sometimes, the CIA kills someone whose death actually makes the world a better place (just by the law of statistics it's gotta happen pretty often) even if they cause an entire regional of the world to become more skeptical of vaccines and foreign medical aid in general. sometimes, a general atomics reaper drone blows up a schoolbus that bad a future hitler on it (making two more future hitlers, because means are ends)
ive been pursued harassed by local police. I've been attacked by white nationalists. the CIA is basically the devil to me, not just in ideals, but part of my personal childhood fucking trauma. and part of their propaganda? is seeming like they're more competent than they are. is appearing to be everywhere. it's a fucking panopticon gambit, and you're falling for it. read some fucking theory. as competent as some of their monsters are (and some are!) they are not all powerful, and even their best are prone to failure. if there are plants in your organization, they're more likely assets than agents, and that says more about your supposed people than it does about them.
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Jokes change context when uttered by people other than the original group, you cant just say "Its not racist for white westerners to say it because the joke originated with Chinese people, also its epic trolling so it doesnt even matter if its racist because I think its cool".
Like come on this is some "But they call each other the N word" shit.
Literally every critique against "AES" is dismissed as "western takes", if it isn't, then "you're not supposed to talk about it", etc., except if it's coming from MLs
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Not every "critique" cites them and are written by them, you just choose to ignore everything else.
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You absolutely choose to ignore shit. We're still debating about why criticism of China or any AES shouldn't be allowed.
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I've read it until "more historically successful".
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For you. For me it isn't. That's why i stay out of these debates.
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I prefer a stateless, classless society.
putting ideals before material conditions is your brain on liberalism
Maybe material conditions are affected by ideals first of all, hmmmm,
:agony-acid: literally liberalism, please read theory
roflmao
Multiverse brain level take.
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I don't know how to tell you without sounding condescending that if your views on anarchists are coming from whatever you read by them on reddit than you have very shallow experiences with anarchism,
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wow, MLs are very oppressed on chapo
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damn you pulled out the reddit tier memes for this one
its not that ML's historically criticize anarchists, it's that they historically kill anarchists, or tell us we're disorganized children and to shut the fuck up and take charge of everything and let spain fall to fascism when an anarchist structure with soviet support would have done a much better job stopping that.
kill. like with murder. i feel like that's worse. if you can't find it in the history books, perhaps it's because you weren't looking?
and no, modern comunists are not the flawed fucked up assholes of old. but if we're talking about history, lets not white-wash anything. everybody sucked. everybody. every. single. fucking. person. if there were good guys, we wouldn't be here. so shut the fuck up and stop pretending your intellectual forebears are "pure" or some shit. work on the ideas. dissect the ideas. find a less awful way forward, and suck less IN THE WAYS YOU THINK MOST EFFECTIVE FOR DOING THAT, and don't pitch your 'enlightenedcentrism' shit to anarchists; we're like the worst people for that.
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I literally said *there are no good guys in history. if there were; we wouldn't be here."
and uncritical support of a state going capitalist and turning away from socialism? yeah that's stupid. tankies who do that uncritically are not acting in their right minds. its a serious fucked up problem and I think ML's should fucking do better. we all know how capitalism goes, so why are you people sucking its dick so rabidly?
its not that a lot of anarchists are parroting americanisms, it's that a lot of americans are juuuuuuuust starting to be babby anarchists and start adopting/appropriating our stuff. its a messy time, and maybe it's what building sympathy looks like.
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they were more strictly organized, lost the international forces when they decided they needed to fucking hierarchalize everything rather than letting them just operate as their own side thing (they could, at LEAST, have been useful idiots), killed morale, etc. "more organized" is not "better organized". im not saying either tactic would have necessarily won; i don't know enough about the military history of the conflict, and what I know of the political history of it always put it at long odds, but the soviets fucked up big and throw away buckets of assets in a specifically tankie sort of way.
wait, a big army of assorted leftists FIGHTING FASCISTS IN A PROXY WAR AGAINST HITLER AND MUSSOLINI didn't deserve... well that says a lot of what the soviets (in your mind) actually stand for, doesn't it?
and yeah, maybe if half your army is anarchists and volunteers who literally came across the ocean to join you, a strict soviet style structure isn't the smartest fucking move
fucking libs, as long as they're gonna keep fighting, deserve support against fascists.
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I think you're exaggerating how close it was to "religion", because if it really was that close the Anarchists would have killed the advisors, castrated them and shoved their genitals in their mouth like they did the clergy of Spain.
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"oh, youre against systematically massacring anarchists? well what about that one time anarchists tried to kill a ML?"
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What about the point being to think about and analyze stuff because thats an invaluable skill for marxists to hone? No one ever said "just posting" china-criticisms, I'm pushing back against you saying NO criticisms. And no, I'm not talking genocide shit, I'm saying we should make more of a habit of actually analyzing what china is doing, right and wrong, for the purpose of learning and thinking about a present example of the system and what it's doing/ how it might change/ perspectives for the future
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No it's not. Analysis can and often does involve overt criticism, and it's clear dipshits like yourself twist in knots to shut down discussions rather than engage seriously in them, hence the obviosuly absurd conditional of talking about anarchists bad so therefore I can ignore any other attempt to engage in this shit.
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i will continue to criticize homophobic and racist states that self identify as socialist yeah, sorry
Actually, uncritical support for nothing, ever
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Sorry, it's "ruthless criticism of all that exists" not "ruthless criticism of all that exists except for your mum"
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It was Karl Marx and they fucked
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Also it's a very good concept that you should take to heart
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I mean, she's a bit promiscuous? but that's just sharing her gift. and she is gifted.
oh my god she so is. like, wow does that woman know how to... bake a delicious wholesome cake for entirely platonic friendtime activity which was exactly how I always planned to end this sentence.
CNT's forced labor camps and Makhno's army were both authoritarian nightmares.