Wow, I'm glad those Tibetans have those enlightened Han to make sure they don't backslide into feudal depravity. Without them, they'd be back to living in Mud huts!
Not like me and my big brain that thinks Tibet will massively improve materially and socially by being thrown overnight into the hungry mouths of the big wolf called global capitalism.
I mean poverty is decreasing world wide so maybe it would be best for Tibet to go at it alone! I am sure I can find some great white male saviour Bill Gates tweet to support my thesis.
Not like me and my big brain that thinks Tibet will massively improve materially and socially by being thrown overnight into the hungry mouths of the big wolf called global capitalism.
Yes, those are definitely the only two options, the PRC certainly could not just set up a separate communist state with Tibetan leadership.
Big brain take: I trust China to setup overnight some separate independent socialist state but I don't trust China to actually govern the region like it has done for over 50 years now.
Please spend at least 2s thinking about the actual outcome here for the people involved in the struggle against imperialism.
2-China vows to support the socialist government at all costs.
3-Suddenly like nobody could ever see this coming a """"movement"""" starts crying for DEMOCRACY so now they ask big brother USA to help them because big bad China is literaly holding Tibet as a satellite state you know because the Tibetan people deserve DEMOCRACY or some shit.
Result: China gets balkanized but still has to support this territory for security and ideological reasons.
Sounds great to me we should ask the Tibetan people if they want independence right away...
Big brain take: I trust China to setup overnight some separate independent socialist state but I don’t trust China to actually govern the region like it has done for over 50 years now.
I don't trust it to do either, it's a bourgeois state and it'd set up a bourgeois state in this thought experiment. But it'd still be less of an imperialism.
Result: China gets balkanized but still has to support this territory for security and ideological reasons.
They don't have to do shit. They let Myanmar sink or swim, don't tell me they couldn't do the same for Tibet.
Conquering another country for "security reasons" is pure fucking imperialism, it's the same shitty reasoning used for the Japanese colonization of Korea and China. Not like it's even applicable here - it'd suicide to try an invade China through Tibet, the logistics are ridiculous.
What part of what i just wrote made you think I give a shit about western opinion polls either?
I don’t have one offhand that isolates Tibetan responses, but there’s a pretty good chance you can find one. At the very least, you should be able to extrapolate a range from looking at the places where responses were isolated and then using population proportions to set up a possible range for the local average.
Why would I do a bunch of work to derive a number that I think is completely worthless, like all opinion polls?
You’re literally just keeping yourself in a state of epistemic suspense so that you can continue to lick boots.
Pretty sure I'm the only one not licking boots here. Sorry I don't start chowing down as soon as I see that the boot is red.
I can buy that logic, but it would really only apply to western state propaganda - western businesses who are active in china (who would the ones taking the poll) would absolutely still be incentivized to side with the PRC.
Fair enough, this is basically the situation I was thinking of, and the contents makes it clear they'd want to fudge things, but have trouble with it.
Now, this poll isn’t particularly relevant to the question of Tibet (though perhaps it might cool your hatred of the PRC?)
I don't hate the PRC, certainly not more than any other bourgeois state. I just don't see the need to make excuses' for their imperialism because they have a socialist aesthetic. I also don't believe in the outlandish Uyghur genoicde claims, although the PRC are clearly run by Han chauvinists.
but I think it provides an analytical basis for getting some information on how things stand in Tibet.
Now that I really don't see. The contents of the pdf fit with my opinion that China is, despite authoritarian, a capitalist state that is in less decay than much of the west. This competency translates both into real material gains and popular support - but I don't see how that changes the situation in Tibet. There are absolutely historical examples, like Lombardy or Bohemia, in which an imperial power managed to govern competently and create a decent economy, but is still oppressive and did not have popular support.
This is not about Tibetans as a group somehow not having the capacity to self-govern.
Then why is Tibet's fedual past even brought up in the first place? Surely that was a consequence of the socio-political system of the previous regime, and once destroyed it becomes no longer relevant. The only justification for bringing it up would be trying to portray the Tibetan people as somehow inherently primitive, and that any new state would backslide into it - a common racist justification for imperialism.
This is about the historical incident that the ruling class of Tibet before China took it over was overtly depraved,
And you're still bringing it up NOW!
be much better than that when some US-backed reactionary is put in charge of a state.
I said conditions, not roads. Look at the decrease in poverty. Look at the increase in children actually being able to complete primary school. Look at just about any metric you want and you will find that it has improved.
So fucking what? Of course it should improve, they're not fucking feudal lords, of course it's going to be a massive step up. But Tibet in the the 1950s is not the counterfactual we're comparing it to, it's the theoretical independent communist tibetan state.
The insistence that without the guiding hand of the Imperialist, the region would inevitably fall into authoritarianism, anarchism or owned by the "bad" imperalist, is an absolute classic piece of Imperialist propaganda.
Can you point to anything to suggest that the state that has successfully overthrown dozens of nations and has a “Tibetan Government-in-Exile” just waiting to take over wouldn’t be able to do so?
Because the US is not omnipotent, and more often than not, it completely falls flat on it's face?
The US has completely failed to pacify a nation that borders Tibet, that is both much smaller and less mountainous. A country that borders China had a very long war for it's independence, in which the US was actively involved for 10 years, and during that war it also ended up having to fight china itself. Falling to western imperialism is not inevitable, and any attempt to pretend otherwise it really just an attempt to legitimize chinese imperialism.
And, again, equivocating between the US and China is absurd.
Fundamentally, I think this where we're at an impasse. I think they absolutely are equivocal, both fundamentally being bourgeois states seeking to increase their power through imperialism - the only difference being danger - China is less dangerous to most of the world than the US, but to the Uyghur and Tibet, absolutely not.
Then why is Tibet’s fedual past even brought up in the first place? Surely that was a consequence of the socio-political system of the previous regime, and once destroyed it becomes no longer relevant. The only justification for bringing it up would be trying to portray the Tibetan people as somehow inherently primitive, and that any new state would backslide into it - a common racist justification for imperialism.
Imperialism is when anyone is apart of a country that isn’t ran by people that look and speak exactly like them. True leftists only support ethno-states that the majority of the actual population don’t actually desire which coincidently aligns with the United States foreign policy objectives that have historically led to the deaths of millions and some of the most dramatic drops in standard of living in human history.
True leftism is when we conquer another nation because it paid tribute to the Emperor of the Qing, thus it is a completely natural part of the borders of our empire socialist state.
Explain to me how the Tibetan people in any remotely practical or material sense lost real sovereignty or freedom when serfdom, a system that 95% of them were subject to, was abolished and supplanted by the CPC integrating the Tibetan Communist Party and instituting a egalitarian system that allowed them comprehensive access to education, healthcare, participation in local elections and modern infrastructure for the first time In their history.
You’re, without hyperbole, whinging that a vanishingly small amount of the Tibetan elite no longer has their own lines on a map to rule as feudal fiefdom under the veneer of protesting supposed imperialist oppression that no one but western backed reactionaries substantiate.
Wow, I'm glad those Tibetans have those enlightened Han to make sure they don't backslide into feudal depravity. Without them, they'd be back to living in Mud huts!
Not like me and my big brain that thinks Tibet will massively improve materially and socially by being thrown overnight into the hungry mouths of the big wolf called global capitalism.
I mean poverty is decreasing world wide so maybe it would be best for Tibet to go at it alone! I am sure I can find some
great white male saviourBill Gates tweet to support my thesis.Yes, those are definitely the only two options, the PRC certainly could not just set up a separate communist state with Tibetan leadership.
Big brain take: I trust China to setup overnight some separate independent socialist state but I don't trust China to actually govern the region like it has done for over 50 years now.
Please spend at least 2s thinking about the actual outcome here for the people involved in the struggle against imperialism.
1-Tibet becomes socialist "independent" satellite.
2-China vows to support the socialist government at all costs.
3-Suddenly like nobody could ever see this coming a """"movement"""" starts crying for DEMOCRACY so now they ask big brother USA to help them because big bad China is literaly holding Tibet as a satellite state you know because the Tibetan people deserve DEMOCRACY or some shit.
Result: China gets balkanized but still has to support this territory for security and ideological reasons. Sounds great to me we should ask the Tibetan people if they want independence right away...
I don't trust it to do either, it's a bourgeois state and it'd set up a bourgeois state in this thought experiment. But it'd still be less of an imperialism.
They don't have to do shit. They let Myanmar sink or swim, don't tell me they couldn't do the same for Tibet.
Conquering another country for "security reasons" is pure fucking imperialism, it's the same shitty reasoning used for the Japanese colonization of Korea and China. Not like it's even applicable here - it'd suicide to try an invade China through Tibet, the logistics are ridiculous.
I don't trust it to do either
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I too am glad that Tibet has been colonized by China instead of the United States. What a massive improvement.
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Are you seriously fucking tell me to look at opinion polls?
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Oh I'm sorry, you're right, those opinion polls are correct because they were produced by the red bourgeoisie and not the blue bourgeoisie.
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What part of what i just wrote made you think I give a shit about western opinion polls either?
Why would I do a bunch of work to derive a number that I think is completely worthless, like all opinion polls?
Pretty sure I'm the only one not licking boots here. Sorry I don't start chowing down as soon as I see that the boot is red.
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I can buy that logic, but it would really only apply to western state propaganda - western businesses who are active in china (who would the ones taking the poll) would absolutely still be incentivized to side with the PRC.
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Fair enough, this is basically the situation I was thinking of, and the contents makes it clear they'd want to fudge things, but have trouble with it.
I don't hate the PRC, certainly not more than any other bourgeois state. I just don't see the need to make excuses' for their imperialism because they have a socialist aesthetic. I also don't believe in the outlandish Uyghur genoicde claims, although the PRC are clearly run by Han chauvinists.
Now that I really don't see. The contents of the pdf fit with my opinion that China is, despite authoritarian, a capitalist state that is in less decay than much of the west. This competency translates both into real material gains and popular support - but I don't see how that changes the situation in Tibet. There are absolutely historical examples, like Lombardy or Bohemia, in which an imperial power managed to govern competently and create a decent economy, but is still oppressive and did not have popular support.
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Unironically
Imperialism is imperialism, let it come from whom it may.
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Then why is Tibet's fedual past even brought up in the first place? Surely that was a consequence of the socio-political system of the previous regime, and once destroyed it becomes no longer relevant. The only justification for bringing it up would be trying to portray the Tibetan people as somehow inherently primitive, and that any new state would backslide into it - a common racist justification for imperialism.
And you're still bringing it up NOW!
Then don't put a US-backed reactionary in charge.
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It's certainly a risk. But we're comparing a possible imperalism to one that is actively ongoing.
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Oh I see, colonialism is just fine when you build infrastructure.
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So fucking what? Of course it should improve, they're not fucking feudal lords, of course it's going to be a massive step up. But Tibet in the the 1950s is not the counterfactual we're comparing it to, it's the theoretical independent communist tibetan state.
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The insistence that without the guiding hand of the Imperialist, the region would inevitably fall into authoritarianism, anarchism or owned by the "bad" imperalist, is an absolute classic piece of Imperialist propaganda.
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Because the US is not omnipotent, and more often than not, it completely falls flat on it's face?
The US has completely failed to pacify a nation that borders Tibet, that is both much smaller and less mountainous. A country that borders China had a very long war for it's independence, in which the US was actively involved for 10 years, and during that war it also ended up having to fight china itself. Falling to western imperialism is not inevitable, and any attempt to pretend otherwise it really just an attempt to legitimize chinese imperialism.
Fundamentally, I think this where we're at an impasse. I think they absolutely are equivocal, both fundamentally being bourgeois states seeking to increase their power through imperialism - the only difference being danger - China is less dangerous to most of the world than the US, but to the Uyghur and Tibet, absolutely not.
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Imperialism is when anyone is apart of a country that isn’t ran by people that look and speak exactly like them. True leftists only support ethno-states that the majority of the actual population don’t actually desire which coincidently aligns with the United States foreign policy objectives that have historically led to the deaths of millions and some of the most dramatic drops in standard of living in human history.
:very-smart:
True leftism is when we conquer another nation because it paid tribute to the Emperor of the Qing, thus it is a completely natural part of the borders of our
empiresocialist state.Explain to me how the Tibetan people in any remotely practical or material sense lost real sovereignty or freedom when serfdom, a system that 95% of them were subject to, was abolished and supplanted by the CPC integrating the Tibetan Communist Party and instituting a egalitarian system that allowed them comprehensive access to education, healthcare, participation in local elections and modern infrastructure for the first time In their history.
You’re, without hyperbole, whinging that a vanishingly small amount of the Tibetan elite no longer has their own lines on a map to rule as feudal fiefdom under the veneer of protesting supposed imperialist oppression that no one but western backed reactionaries substantiate.
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