Its arguably a more politically savy or aware answer...but I will never give Trump credit for being "right".
When someone like Chomsky points out the human rights abuses or general non-innocence of the United States he does it as a way to frame criticism of the united states and as a way to highlight that we like to judge our enemies by their actions and ourselves by our stated intentions.
Trump, in this clip, does the inverse and uses the sins of the united states to do apologetics for Putin and in the process normalizes both.
Yeah. But from a centrist standpoint, it's shocking to even imagine that America is anything but innocent. So I'd say Trump is still more "technically correct" than Biden.
Sure...but to use a timely example this feels like pedantic nerds bitching online today over whether Whedon or Snyder's cut of Justice league is better. Better is relative. The most correct take is they both missed the mark by a huge margin and are complete dogshit for similar and different reasons.
Yeah this is just killer solidarity. I'm reminded of the end of his term when he pushed as many executions as possible. It's still jarring how open he is about it though
Who is giving credit to Trump? We are recognizing new rhetorical tools to convince people that America is bad. Trump is not an anomaly, he is America distilled, and the Dems have allowed his kind to spawn under a regime of economic austerity and imperialism. It is very hard for insulated liberals to pretend that things are okay in this country, and this is not because Trump agrees, i think he strongly disagrees, but reveals where we are really at and it is hard to ignore this.
The tweet is about giving trump credit, lol.
Your post highlights exactly my issue with trump's words. There is a subtle but important rhetorical distinction at play in what he says that shifts everything and is important to recognize.
Trump essentially turns what should be critiques and contradictions in US foreign policy on its head to basically say "So putin kills people. So what? We kill people all the the time and I don't know if you know this; we're fucking awesome!"
I agree and it is doubly blameworthy. This in turn could become recognized as indefensible. Maybe not, maybe I am too hopeful, but there is no facade of "well it's for the good of the world/somebody else." It is outright evil and I am hopeful that Americans can come to see that.
Above all else, Trump made liberals uncomfortable that maybe the status quo was bad. Biden lulled them back to sleep.
if he was just a crazy guy with no self-awareness.
I think it's a lot of this.
Trump did more to heighten the contradictions than anyone else in my lifetime
Trump = accelerationist (heightens contradictions)
Biden = decelerationist (harm reduction)
There's a genuine argument to be had about which is worse (i.e., Bernie was closer to winning in 2020 than he was in 2016 because people were getting tired of rich people like Trump fucking over the working class - Obama and co. had to actively interfere in the 2020 election to stop socialism from winning, while in 2016 they just had to sit back and let the media/complacency do its thing).
It's just base tribalism, tho. Trump's, like, "I need to spin this because I'm pretty sure I was told that Putin's on my team".
Same asshole cannot get his dick out fast enough to give the Boys In Blue a twenty-one stroke salute.
Both of their answers are shit. Trump's answer is simply "Everyone's doing it so it's fine".
Trump's answer is also honest. It is the actual justification for imperialism. Liberals are forced to say "when Americans do it, it's still wrong" and the Dems are revealed as hypocrites.
Conservatives: "Hell yeah America is evil and that is cool and good."
Leftists: "America is evil and it is evil so we must stop."
Liberals: waves hands, puff of smoke "Nothing bad is happening! Look the other way!"Trump’s answer is also honest.
It's cavalier. Tacitly endorsing the horror show of Realpolitik.
Biden pretends at America being above at all and leans into the idealistic Exceptionalism.
But neither seem to think what we do is actually wrong.
Of course what Trump is doing is extremely immoral and evil, but the confession that he and America truly don't care is the honest representation of the Great Satan. I would say he openly endorses things, not tacitly, and this presents America as an easier thing to blame and hold accountable than the liberal version of history full of diversions and justifications. Trump said "we're still in Syria to take the oil!" because a crumbling empire no longer even cares to disguise the truth and this can contribute to its collapse if libs learn that there is no acceptable version of neoliberal capitalism.
this can contribute to its collapse if libs learn that there is no acceptable version of neoliberal capitalism.
That's a pretty big "if". I mean, we've seen how libs reacted to this, by doubling down on vote blue no matter who. And now we're seeing them defend liberalism more aggressively than ever before, as every criticism of Biden's administration must come from a salty Trumper or a Russian bot plotting to sabotage the guy who gave them back the comfort of denying the reality of US politics. Yes, there's also been an uptick in leftist positions over the last years, but was that due to Trump saying the quiet part out loud or was that rather due to neoliberalism having wrecked America to the point where material conditions become a radicalization factor for more and more parts of the American populace? I'd say it's the latter. The former is too easily brushed aside with "we just have the wrong guy in power."
was that due to Trump saying the quiet part out loud or was that rather due to neoliberalism having wrecked America to the point where material conditions become a radicalization factor for more and more parts of the American populace?
Why can't they be part of the same process? Bush needed to "save the Iraqi people from Saddam," and it was a total lie and now, no one believes that so easily so Trump just says "because we kick ass" or whatever. This is part of the same progression, the slow fall of empire; we cannot spend money on our infrastructure or healthcare because we spend hundreds of billions on the military. Both our material conditions and Trump's stupidity are related to the corporate state. I confess to being an optimist about whether people will recognize this or not, but I think people will be pressured to take an antiwar stance and of course this means losing our hegemonic status.
I would say he openly endorses things, not tacitly, and this presents America as an easier thing to blame and hold accountable
I disagree on this point, as what he's implying is "everybody does it", thereby absolving both them and us. Putin's allowed to be an authoritarian shit. We're allowed to be authoritarian shits. Authoritarianism Is Good, Aktuly.
This doesn't present America as easier to blame. It allows Americans (particularly his chud base) to feel vindicated when the America team is caught doing unconscionable things. We can do it because it's just how everyone is expected to behave.
Trump said “we’re still in Syria to take the oil!” because a crumbling empire no longer even cares to disguise the truth
Trump said it because that's what his base wants to hear. It's an echo of the liberal "No Blood For Oil" protest against the Iraq War, and a tacit endorsement of bombing brown people that he thinks Americans actually like and want to hear.
The US's need to kill Syrians goes far beyond just the need to control oil. It is, increasingly, about controlling flow of trade and travel through the Middle East. Dumbing it down to "We're taking their shit and they can't stop us" isn't the sign of crumbling empire. It's the sign of a fascist leader whose supporters gleefully endorse the cruelty of the regime.
The Cruelty Is The Point, as the saying goes.
You keep blaming trump as if I disagree with that. You are also taking the pov of his base while I am taking the pov of liberals. The conservatives will sink lower and lower, the libs have to decide to take responsibility and move left. We need no details of our aggression in Syria to understand how liberals might see America after Trump. Can they really believe that Trump's Hobbesian justification of murder is much different from Biden's, who has not made any indication to change our occupation in Syria that began when he was vice president? Or lift Trump's sanctions on Iran? My thesis is that The Cruelty Is The Point is also what humanitarian imperialism is. There is no significant distinction between R and D imperialism, and Trump's undressing of this rhetoric might make liberals confront this.
You keep blaming trump as if I disagree with that.
I think you're reading his statement as a confession, rather than a dismissal. Like he's forcing liberals to realize America does bad things, when he's not doing that at all (because they all think he's a cynical liar). Instead he's mollifying conservatives who think these giant state police bureaucracies are Big Government Overreach by insisting we need them to compete with all the other Big Government Foreign Countries.
This undermines the Ron Paul / Pat Buchanan conservative branch that insist all this foreign interventionism is bad. It doesn't scratch a liberal, who dismisses everything Trump says as a Russian PsyOp to Destroy America anyway.
Can they really believe that Trump’s Hobbesian justification of murder is much different from Biden’s, who has not made any indication to change our occupation in Syria that began when he was vice president?
Absolutely! Because Trump is Bad and Biden is Good.
Or lift Trump’s sanctions on Iran?
Double absolutely! Because Iran is Bad and Biden is Good.
There is no significant distinction between R and D imperialism
There's plenty of rhetorical distinction. Biden will insist he's helping foreigners while Trump will revel in hurting them. And people will argue over whether helping or hurting foreigners is the right policy while the Deep State keeps on keeping on.
You might be right. I am an optimist. But recall Iraq, when Bush had to pretend he was liberating Iraqis. Now, they don't even try. It is too easy to read this as a worsening situation - what about it would be worse? Arguably, the same military outcome would happen regardless of how they talked about it, so wouldn't we prefer this obscene honesty about who we are? Would we rather be kept in the dark, have nothing change and no one learn? Trump advertised himself as an "isolationist;" a lie but imo an improvement from the jihadist neocons. They might have realized that dying for an oil company is bad. I am hoping for a similar improvement from liberals, to realize that Trump did not spring from Zeus' forehead, he was bred in a neoliberal laboratory that the Dems have a responsibility in creating.
Liberals hated Trump for saying the quiet part out loud.
Exactly this. He just stated some obvious liberal shit every once in a while and people think he is based. Great well, we confirmed Trump breathes I guess as far as I'm concerned
sure putin's a killer. but like so is every world leader....like by definition
