this is my first comment here, just wanted to say that it's so nice to find a corner of the internet where i can be an openly vegan communist and vibe with similar ppl. I'm so tired of tiptoeing around "based" carnists that go full chud once you eat a veggie burger in front of them or ask them to not be speciesist. sorry for the mushy comment but ty yall 😭
Unfortunately we have those people here too. But yeah, the fact that like 30% of people here won't go full chud against vegans is an improvement
Carnists should be baited, and when they take the bait they should be [redacted]
Welcome, and sorry for the same kinds of comments made by supposed comrades in this thread
thanks <3 yeah it hurts to see ngl, really wish carnists would simply stop being hateful
Veganism is a "chronic disease"?? Or carnism? I hope you mean carnism is the disease.
the meme: "you're just lazy, right?"
the comments: "how dare you call me lazy, I actually enjoy hurting others""haha you're vegan!!!! I will eat twice as much meat!! haah" dude i just mentioned it cuz we're going to dinner and it's actually relevant...
I'm starting to think the problem for a lot of people is that they just flat out don't know how to cook vegetarian/vegan dishes.
I'm thinking a lot of them are imaging some kind of hypothetical "cooked to perfection" meat dish with lots of spices and sauce vs like...cold, uncooked beans straight out of the can.
I'm not vegan, but like...it isn't hard to prepare a nice tasting vegan meal, going vegan doesn't mean a person has to live a spartan culinary existence where food is for bland sustenance and nothing else.
This is my view on healthy eating in general. There needs to be some genuine attempt to educate people on cooking, and materials should be subsidized at worst. I was once arguing with a lib about the soda tax shit, and they kept saying how people should know how to eat healthier and grow produce and cook it, and I was trying so patiently to explain that raising prices from people in food deserts is not how you do that. Maybe start with regulating what companies can put IN food.
Absolutely, a huge amount of it is food culture. I remember seeing advice an reddit to do rule of thirds on your plate and I realized how limiting that is, and how much more difficult it'd be to make veggie meals. Unfortunately it's the only way many people recognize a meal, and the jump from a heap of chicken on your plate to a heap of beans is much larger than the jump from a lentil curry with chicken to a lentil curry without.
I cant really empathize with animals like how i can people. I hit possums with my car on the way to work all the time (once a month or so). Its unavoidable because they charge into the road and its too windy to move out of the way usually.
If i hit even one person id never live with the guilt and quit my job. Its unfair to expect 1 possum to equal 1 human. I understand you dont expect that. However, how many possums would i have to hit before it was enough for me to care much? It would have to be like when the cicadas come out - piles and piles of them for miles. I just value my husband having nice things more than the lives of those rodents, even though i like rodents a lot.
So the meat industry is basically a giant concentration camp of suffering, but im unsure if the suffering outweighs all the workers it employs, or evsn ths fact that they taste good.
At the same time, their suffering has value. Im excited for clone meat and i eat a lot of vegetables. It could easilly be that i cant empathize with them because of class consiousness similar to poor roman citizens not caring about the plight of slaves.
So, if veganism benefitted my class id be more enthusiastic in becoming a vegetarian instead of just using meat in moderation. It would have to be something about how me not eating meat or doing local activism for animals helps. I cant change society and me not buying meat wont actually help animals.
For example, my local activism was beneficial to people like me because it gave them a support network and community.
Liberals are always saying things like this. "We can't get rid of the death camps because people work there"
Ok we can get those people to do other jobs
Said this elsewhere before, communists will pull out every liberal excuse when being criticized from the left about veganism.
"They're mean" "Acktshually it's not as good for x as you think" "What about x group of people that this will impact" (who haven't even expressed opposition or concern about the issue) "You just care too much"
Same vibes as supposed progressives who are sharing pro-Israel PragerU vids after criticizing PragerU on other topics.
Ideally every comrade is vegan, but if for whatever reason you cannot be or are working towards it then at the absolute least you can support those who are and accept that it is the morally correct position instead of all this hoop jumping
“I dream of a world in which I would be executed as a reactionary.”
"wait, no"
Same vibes as supposed progressives who are sharing pro-Israel PragerU vids after criticizing PragerU on other topics.
Ideally every comrade is vegan, but if for whatever reason you cannot be or are working towards it then at the absolute least you can support those who are and accept that it is the morally correct position instead of all this hoop jumping
Sorry for the cliche response, but really. This.
accept that it is the morally correct position
Okay veganism is one thing but moral realism is where I draw the line.
Can you explain how the continued mistreatment and exploitation of animals is moral?
Would you make the same claim if this were instead some trans rights debate and I claimed supporting trans people is the morally correct position even if you are certainly Cis and do not know a single trans person?
It's not a 1:1 analogy for sure, but I think it captures a similar idea
I'm denying the existence of objective moral facts in a tongue-in-cheek fashion not calling into question any particular one.
Think of all the children in the American meat industry who will go unemployed
So the meat industry is basically a giant concentration camp of suffering, but im unsure if the suffering outweighs all the workers it employs, or evsn ths fact that they taste good.
it's okay that sentient beings suffer because you think they taste good. you must realise how genuinely fucked up that thought is, right? what gives you any right to decide your favourite treat is more important than a life? animals feel pain. they have wants that aren't purely instinctual. their right to autonomy is more important than your desire for treats or a paycheck for workers - paycheck that comes at a heavy price, mind you. a job that requires mass killing has negative psychological and sometimes even physical effects on people.
at the end of the day, we're leftists because we believe that pushing suffering on the innocent is wrong. pigs, cows, chickens have done nothing to deserve death. buying their corpses to eat is completely out of step with the values communists and anarchists claim to hold.
My leftism is about better human social organisation for every human's benefit and reduced suffering. Beyond the practicality of ensuring a sustainable planetary ecosystem, it has nothing to do with other animals.
"My leftism has nothing to do with empathy or recognizing the suffering of others, it has only to do with benefiting those that I deem enough "like me" to be worth my consideration! Leftism is all about making things better for me and my kind! No, that's not reactionary! I'm not a chud! I'm a leftist, really!"
Feel free to go and busy yourself making the world better for rocks or something? You draw your own line at making the world better for things that sufficiently 'like you', too. I deem humans sufficiently 'like me', and there are plenty practical reasons for encompassing all humans in a just world, too. You just deem animals also sufficiently 'like you', but I don't personally see sufficient reasoning to extend that far.
you really need to self crit and think about why you think beings only like you deserve safety and freedom from oppression. that really is so incompatible with everything we talk about here
"Oppression and subjugation of a living thing is fine so long as it can't speak to me and tell me it doesn't like it. Extra points if it's tasty!"
It has nothing to do with where I personally draw the line, asshole. It has everything to do with the scientifically established reality about who is capable of suffering. Rocks can't. Cows, pigs, etc. can. Just because your sphere of empathy is arbitrarily drawn to reinforce what's convenient for you doesn't mean that by necessity everyone else is so shallow, cruel, and morally inconsistent.
Animal agriculture is a disgustingly exploitive industry with awful environmental practices. Even if you only care about the human side of it you should want it to end.
if your empathy and concern for suffering ends at humans, i don't think you're a proper leftist and you should take your belief in autonomy and freedom from oppression to it's logical conclusion (animal liberation)
you are the one true leftist, further left than any AES, the soviet union, and everybody the CIA overthrew.
Would it be sectarianism if some people here supported slavery and other people pointed out that that makes them objectively garbage human beings?
In this scenario though, every major socialist movement in history, including major socialist states today, support slavery too.
I just draw my line at the necessity of autonomy and freedom from oppression at humans. Best I can understand, typical vegans just draw their line at animals. I don't see an objective logical path to animal liberation.
it's never surprising seeing you show your ass in a thread about veganism every chance you get
im unsure if the suffering outweighs all the workers it employs, or evsn ths fact that they taste good.
The workers employed in that industry very often end up with PTSD because of all the horrors they experience every day. Stopping the support for the animal holocaust is the best way to help those fellow workers possibly find a better job in the processing of plant based food, possibly saving their lives.
And yes, the suffering of others absolutely outweighs 15 minutes of sensory entertainment, how is that even a question?
veganism benefitted my class id be more enthusiastic in becoming a vegetarian
My first point already explained why it benefits your class, but I will also add that a vegan diet is the single most impactful thing someone can do to reduce their carbon footprint. So, if your class will suffer from climte change (it will) then going vegan is a necessity.
And also this: Veggie-based diets could save 8 million lives by 2050 and cut global warming
My first point already explained why it benefits your class, but I will also add that a vegan diet is the single most impactful thing someone can do to reduce their carbon footprint. So, if your class will suffer from climte change (it will) then going vegan is a necessity.
the idea of the personal carbon footprint is propaganda created by BP to distract from real environmental issues, much like the idea of the litterbug was corporate propaganda created to distract from actually meaningful pollution by industry.
Yes, the personal carbon footprint is tiny compared to corporations, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to care about our individual impact. Getting people invested in the problem of the climate crisis is essential to get some regulations from our governments. We will get nothing if everyone just doesn't seem to care.
The collective is composed of individuals. It's evident that the collective will never form if every individual is too lazy to make tiny adjustments.
I disagree as collective action is not made up of individualist decisions. Its made up of individual ones. The individuals get together and decide to go on strike at the same time for example. They dont all just individualisticly decide to stop working until there is a domino effect.
Im saying that its a waste of time to be an individualist vegan. If it matters to you so much, join a radical animal rights group like elf or peta. They are doing collective action. Ive always felt like PETA wasnt that bad, tbh. They at least do something.
If you believe that animal slavery is at all morally similar to human slavery, then you might want to dedicate your life to becoming farm Spartacus. That isnt me mocking you, but an actual suggestion.
I know all about how frustrating it is to be the only who cares about something. So even though i dont care about animals like humans, i respect that you might.
Don't worry it won't be individualist when there are more of us vegans. We will ban animal ag when we have the power to do so.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
So the meat industry is basically a giant concentration camp of suffering, but im unsure if the suffering outweighs all the workers it employs, or evsn ths fact that they taste good.
Very good utilitarian way of thinking you're employing here, which can be used to justify everything else too
I know slaves are suffering, but their suffering doesn't outweigh the money they're bringing to the empire, or even the fact that the shirt made from the cotton they picked is nice.Thats what i was saying. It was the whole point. The question is if animals should be emoathized with in the same way historical slaves are.
I dont participate in online debate. Im more stating what i believe along with potential flaws in order to see if my mind can ever be changed. Its not really my job to convert people to how i think.
All you've done is admit that you think the suffering of others is fine and "worth it" for the tasty results, so long as those who are suffering are sufficiently different than you.
The question is if animals should be emoathized with in the same way historical slaves are.
That's a slimy phrasing the question in a way that immediately lets you off the hook for your choice to ignore and perpetuate suffering because it makes it seem like the question of non-human suffering hinges on non-humans being "the same as" human slaves. It's the old "well, obviously pigs and cows aren't quite as intellectually complex as humans therefore anything we do to them for the sake of humans enjoying treats is fine. What, do you think pigs and cows should be able to vote or learn to read?"
In other words, the answer to your question about whether we should empathize "in the same way" is no, not the "same way," but we absolutely should and must empathize with them as fellow sentient beings capable of emotions, joy, suffering, pleasure, pain just like humans, and recognize that the way we torture and murder billions of them every year for profit (and "taste") is one of the greatest crimes in the history of our species.
Your entire premise of who deserves your empathy is still based on how much someone is "like you" in whatever arbitrary ways that allow you to maintain the distinctions you've already made based on your comfort and convenience. And that part is the same as slave owners who would make similar arbitrary distinctions about how "different from themselves" their victims are.
Yes, sentient beings deserve your empathy. It's not at all a difficult conclusion to reach if you have any interest in being honest with yourself.
I dont really think i agree with that. What i said doesnt have much to do with what you think my motives are. Im sure it has something to do with someones tho, so its not a worthless comment.
Animal agriculture is horrible for the environment so arguably a vegan diet helps all classes.
(Vegetarian here that only eats honey and eggs from a local farm but still feels bad about it) Western animal agriculture is bad, no doubt. I am totally convinced that a society which has animals as a part of a whole healthy environment in like a permaculture+animals sharing the space society can eat animal products and possibly even the animal in cases where it's healthiest for the entirety of the society including animals (think here of removing a male lion to allow a healthier population in total, but for goats that have been milked but live normal and free/safe lives). This would likely be temporary before becoming unnecessary if we reach a point past scarcity of proteins/foods. Max Ajl talks about this often (though he can be a bit chuddy about it, he's trying to protect pastoralists with it I think)
That seems really vague to me. A lot of things are bad for the environment.
I could see how it would be bad for the world, so the magical make the world vegan button would be pressed. I simpky see no reason to become vegan, or personally participate in any activism that helps animals.
How is it vague? Animal agriculture is one of many things that are bad for the environment. Reducing these bad things is good for the environment. A good environment is good for people, including you, your community, your class, and everyone else.
Individuals are only going to have a microeffect but it's still an effect for good overall.
I dont think the microeffect is worth it and im philosophically against individualist solutions
I dont think the microeffect is worth it and im philosophically against individualist solutions
I take it a step further and think everyone should do as much harm to the environment as they can, individually.
Lol when u change the oil on your ford f150 pour out half thr oil on the ground. Remove the cat converter and drive without a muffler.
I live in a very rural area with way too many becauss the local law makes hunting them illegal to punish rednecks because thats what progressive politicians waste their time on here - murals and attempts to ban hunting anything but deer. Nothing that actually helps people.
Possums are generally a benefit to the environment.
If you have a lot of them that just means they have a lot of food. You probably don't want to get rid of them
Possums are marsupials, the only marsupial native to North America, actually. Just a fun fact.
"Wow thats cool :) I'll keep that in mind as I uncaringly run them over at least once a month"
you guys know there's a such thing as humane and carbon-negative pork right?
Idea for a bit: a vegan Objectivist who lets the trolley hit the pig because he wasn't going to eat the pig anyway.
Honestly this thread is better then most, but I suspect Hexbear has a higher concentration of Vegans and people who support veganism. There's been plenty of "Lol VEgAn BAd" post on the regular meme and shitposting lemmies, and they're getting more popular with the influx of chuds from Reddit.
Yea it's definitely better here than most places. I guess I just hold leftists to higher standards.
Same. Deeply grateful for the pushback on it, though.
Hexbear reverts to liberalism when it doesn't have regular struggle sessions.
We're gonna see Joe Biden harm reduction posts in about 6 months lol.
Are they blocked from my instance or am I too late? I can't seem to find any comment but support for pig life
Looking at it from your side it says there's only 67 comments but on our side there's 169, it's probably because on hexbear when a comment gets removed by the mods it just deletes that comment but on mainstream Lemmy (like dbzero uses) every comment after the deleted comment is also deleted with it so because you're not on hexbear almost two thirds of the comments are hidden for you
Oh dang, would it require going through hexbear properly to see them or is it possible for an instance to change that behavior?
If you want to see all the comments, you have to go through Hexbear, but you can just click the fediverse button under any post made by a user from our instance to do that easily
As a centrist, for a compromise I will only pull the lever half way.
this will cause the trolley to explode, contaminating the nearby hummus fields
Wait, doesn’t that mean the only valid option is to pull it halfway then?
We don't have enough edgy carnists comments in here so idk guess I would murder the pig or whatever, not like it has any feelings, and my momentary enjoyment of its taste is worth more than its life. I am a good leftist btw.
Uhh my turn for edgy carnist comment
...
Have you noticed how carnist kinda sounds like Carnotaurus and Carnotaurus are rad as hell?
Gets hit by a meteor and dies 65 millions of years ago
But, that does not mean that veganism is an invalid movement. Far from it. It simply means that the onus to become vegan is because it empowers a social movement that can end this horrific industry, rather than because of a individualistic consumer choice.
This is why I have a hard time morally judging my friends and family for not being vegan, but are vegan myself. Veganism is a political position, and I treat it similarly to the people I care about being . I should correct them when I can, but they are not individually terrible people for having the wrong political opinions (and, to a degree, behavior).
so much this!! it’s odd so many leftists don’t seem to understand it
For this reason the only way we're going to get out of this mess is a technological solution (or society collapses to the point that we forget about animal husbandry)
But many vegans here have had very antisocialist views about how we must simply eat beans and need not improve food technology (re lab grown and plant meats, helping people with certain digestive disabilities) to increase adoption of veganism.
veganism is very interesting, because i thought it was more of a diet but now I see its got a political complexity akin to an actual ideology. Many different facets of the ideas. Not all are good. I can't wait until a day when we are free to experiment with and implement these ideas.
The worst fucking take is when vegans compare minority groups to animals. You can make an argument for veganism without sounding like a fucking fascist. I want to see admins start banning this fucked up behavior that apparently gets a pass.
Thats exactly what i mean. Its literally my only critique of the vegan arguments made, but no apparently animal husbandry is the same as genocide of trans people and the Atlantic slave trade. Saying otherwise makes you a reactionary, a bad faith arguer, and actually probably a wrecker.
It is literally so easy to argue veganism, why do you have to go with the ones that are heavily discriminatory against people you say you want to protect. Just drop it, its not helping anyone at all, if anything it hurts the credibility of the whole thing.
I mostly agree but think its strange to dismiss the individual part of it. Although a social movement is the goal being worked towards, I feel its a bit harmful to state the goal as 'global vegan movement' instead of 'stop exploiting animals' because that difference provides wiggle room to do harmful things if you don't expect it to affect the odds of the movement succeeding, which gets yourself thinking in unhelpful utilitarian terms. Easier to get intersectional-understanding benefits of connecting veganism to other issues, and be a better voice for that movement, when you're an abolitionist vegan who doesn't care if what you're doing might not be worthwhile according to an arbitrary metric.
The movement is of course the vitally necessary action to end the industry, but I'm also sick of carnist leftist friends excusing individual carnist actions because of it 'not really changing things', which I think is driving my thoughts here.
I think I just couldn't tell if you were suggesting 'buying or not buying harmful products doesn't make a difference' to mean supporting carnist stuff is fine, cause it felt like an odd inclusion but I getcha now.
But yeah I was, in response, arguing the importance of still considering consumption habits in your veganism, which comes from my mechanistic worldview thinking that everything has an affect on something, so what should instead be the limiting factor for these decisions is stuff like privilege (instead of util priorities), which ends up at the same stance as you (I think). Anxiety over my political alienation making me min-max my veganism lol.
Time for the mods to hose us all down with tofu removedant again.
But if the train runs over those tasty tasty beans... how do you eat them?
The train is a unique culinary tool. It's just an innovative way to make track-crushed refries. You eat them the the same way you'd eat any refried beans.
I mean, I could imagine a Popeye-like scenario where I stand to the side, the train rolls over the can and it explodes in an arc into my mouth
can someone please explain why vegans are allowed to engage in sectarian gatekeeping? Anarchists and MLs are rightly prevented from fighting about who is and isn't a real leftist, that should extend to vegan users not saying we're not real leftists for eating meat or using animal products.
Because the difference between anarchists and communists is one of strategy while the difference between vegans and bloodmouths is wanting to cause suffering for selfish reasons. It's not sectarian.
And no. If you're not following your ethics to the ultimate conclusion and still have a strain of "I deserve the exploits of others suffering" in you, then you're not actually a leftist.
oh so Cuba, Viet Nam, China, the USSR, the DPRK, the Paris commune... all are or were vegan? funny how that bit gets left out of the history books
Instead of grappling with the actual ethics of the thing we're supposed to defer to these ethically flawless fully realized utopian projects? Next will you say it's okay to be homophobic and a leftist because the communist projects of the 20th century can't be criticized?
The core of leftist beliefs that exploitation be abolished. Vegans are right.
anti-natalism is legitimately just the worst ideology out there. Just real shit-ass logic all the way down, and never sprung from coherent thoughts about consent or happiness.
can you explain why? my understanding is that you shouldn't have kids if you can't guarantee them a good life essentially.
Folks used the same argument here early on during trans struggle sessions and we correctly adopted the position that to be leftist your need to be pro-trans.
Also we are obviously talking about current conditions.
Vegans aren't a marginalized group of people, they aren't being genocided by Evangelical fascists, full fucking stop
Trans people deserve to be considered a protected class here, vegans don't
This is a poor analogy. Vegans are not the exploited party they are simply the ones who match their morals with actions.
Also yeah I'll echo that you don't seem to understand the very basics of what's being discussed here so maybe you should ask yourself why you have such a strong reaction. If I were so ignorant, I would be asking questions or going to self-teach.
Veganism is not about vegans being a marginalized group.
Do you have any thoughts as to why the pushback has the exact same patterns?
Vegans are arguing about the oppression of animals, not themselves. Animals are being genocided, and in the most extreme way seen in history.
yeah 100%, im going to stay on the news mega from now on what the fuck are these arguments
"genocide as the mass slaughter of any life"
This is both not what genocide is and it also trivializes actual genocides. You're right to call this view anthropocentric, but I'm not going to say that animal life is a 1:1 equivalency with human life. Industrial farming is fucked up I agree, and should be ended. I also agree that veganism is a good thing, better than eating meat. But overall it is not the same thing, not at all.
'm not going to say that animal life is a 1:1 equivalency with human life.
Even if cows are worth 0.0001% of a human, animal agriculture is by far the worst genocide and indeed the worst crime ever committed on Earth.
I think we can be pro-vegan in the exact same way, encouraging and fostering vegan thought and talking points even if we don't think they fit into our lives. We're not that, but I've honestly thought a lot more about my relationship to meat and the ramifications of my diet due to vegan posters than I ever did before, like how trans posters made me think about my relationship with gender. There's obviously a difference in that veganism has the ultimate goal of making everyone vegan, not all trans people want gender abolition, but if we can all think a little more vegan than we did yesterday I think that's a good thing. More people are likely to become vegan if there's an environment open to its discussion than if there isn't. I'm genuinely thinking about it a bit rn, might have to do some research.
Can vegans please stop comparing minority groups to animals? Holy fuck stop being transphobic
Can carnists please stop engaging in bad-faith arguments? Holy fuck stop being speciesist
Vegans see animals as someones not somethings. Maybe take out the speciesist lenses that make solidarity look like transphobia.
This thread is bringing me back to some of the fun arguments of the bad times.
As a principled Posadist, I support more people existing in the past and less people existing in the future.
wait this person is both an antinatalist & a carnist???? that… what the fuck?
Weird how often the loudest anti-vegans also turn out to be anti-human too.
oh this dude is the anti-natalist weirdo
this is what i get for having 3 seconds of sympathy for this guy oml
can someone explain why rentoids are allowed to engage in sectarian gatekeeping? Anarchists and MLs are rightly prevented from fighting about who is and isn't a real leftist, that should extend to rentoid users not saying we're not real leftists for owning an apartment building we inherited from our grandparents.
I would post ppb at a carnist apologists like you but because
I think it's a form of animal crueltyBecause the rules specifically have a carve out for them.
Do you also need someone to explain to you why Patsoc's don't fall under the nonsectarian rule too? What about Va*shites? They're real leftists, according to themselves, so not letting them run rampant here is just blatant sectarianism, you're so right! The non-sectarianism rule should also extend to the Pro-Palestine gatekeeper users, always arrogantly telling Zionists that they're not real leftists just because they support a racist apartheid state conducting genocide. This all makes perfect sense.
No because even if you're a communist who organizes, reads, and helps your fellow human, you are a reactionary akin to a liberal conservative if you eat that turkey thanksgiving dinner
This but unironically. Carnism is reactionary liberal ideology which is incompatible with leftism and your cognitive dissonance will become too great to bear eventually
You going to call Fidel a reactionary? Veganism is good and something to strive for, but it's not the ultimate marker of leftist purity.
Carnist Catch 22, if it hits the beans then they'll be destroyed and you'll have to eat the pig to survive.
Muh multi tracking pork and bean treats hue hue hue
Sounds like we need another Dominion viewing.
tho
never stop bait posting
it’s true, that’s all she does! she’s a bait farmer!
