Wasn't the fact that "the nazi ukranians with a jewish president are trying to ethnic clean the russians" the same excuse used by Putin to start the invasion?
suggesting that their president is jewish means they don't have a nazi problem in their military is just as ridiculous as suggesting that america doesn't have a racist cop problem because Obama was black. Imagine if we had elected Bernie Sanders (who is Jewish) in America. Does that mean all the nazis in our military and police would simply disappear? of course not. Nor would have electing Hillary Clinton brought an end to sexism. Nor would electing Pete Buttigieg have brought an end to LGBTphobia. There's a difference between the milestone of electing to high office a member of a marginalized group and the literal end of all discrimination against the marginalized group. The two should not be confused with each other under any circumstances.
the same excuse used by Putin to start the invasion?
Just because someone uses something as an excuse doesn't mean it isn't a real problem. America used terrorism, a real problem, as an excuse to invade 7 different countries. The irony being that many of those right wing jihadist terrorist groups the US was fighting were originally CIA-backed anti-soviet reactionaries.
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Putin's actual reason for the invasion was Ukraine threatening to join NATO. NATO membership means the US can stage nuclear weapons in your country, train your troops, etc. Putin didn't want US power that close to Moscow (the Russo-Ukrainian border is the closest international border to Moscow). This makes sense. After all, the so-called Cuban missile crisis back in the day actually started when America put nukes in Turkey, about 1200 miles from Moscow, so Moscow put missiles in Cuba, about 1200 miles from Washington. It was a tit-for-tat. After 3 decades of NATO expanding eastward into former Warsaw pact countries (usually under the rhetoric of "increasing security cooperation") Putin finally decided to invade Ukraine. However, yes, it was rhetorically convenient for him to point out the neo nazis in Ukraine.
NATO gave informal promises to Gorbachev to not expand eastward (Gorbachev was stupid to believe these promises and not get them in writing as formal, legally-binding promises)
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The Soviet Union tried to join NATO in 1954 but wasn't allowed
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST USE FACTS AND CITATIONS AND PRIMARY SOURCE EVIDENCE YOU TANKIES ALWAYS POST A WALL OF DOCUMENTED SOURCES THAT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS AND THEN WHEN WE REFUSE TO READ OR ENGAGE WITH THESE SOURCES IN ANY WAY AND INSTEAD SPEW IGNORANT REDUCTIVE BULLSHIT LIKE A PARROT LIVING IN THE LOBBY OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT YOU CALL US MEAN NAMES YOU TANKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIES
Lol Finland and the Baltics abstained from the "Nazis are bad, actually" vote because of course.
Also, could you throw a CW: on there for holocaust, corpses, and nazis please?
What I love about that article from The Independent is that, up until recently when they republished the Robert Frisk article, you could old find the piece in their archives and, conveniently, they redacted the image of Bin Laden to soften the blow as much as possible without outright censoring the article.
Jewish people can be nazi collaborators. Of which, Zelensky is all-but-explicitly one, given the kinds of people he materially supports and empowers. Source: I’m Jewish
Wasn't the oligarch that backed Zelensky's career also backing Nazi formations at the same time? I haven't looked in to this stuff in years because why bother, but I recall that being a thing.
One of Ukraine’s most popular TV channels 1+1, owned by oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky, has given Zelenskiy a powerful platform in recent months during his meteoric rise to the brink of the presidency.
On Saturday, a day before Zelenskiy won the first round of the presidential contest and set up a run-off with the incumbent Petro Poroshenko, 1+1 filled its schedule with back-to-back shows by the comedian and actor.
The fact that Zelenskiy is a major star on the channel has stoked worries among some investors and voters, and accusations from his political opponents, that he is in the pocket of Kolomoisky.
and this guy was also involved
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadim_Rabinovich
just reading a few paragraphs from this one, this kinda jumped out:
On 25 March 2014, Rabinovich registered with the Central Election Commission as a self-nominated candidate for the presidency of Ukraine. This was partly to counter the characterization of the new Ukrainian government as antisemitic. After registering, Rabinovich said: "I want to destroy the myth about an anti-semitic Ukraine which is spreading around the world. Probably I'm the most fortunate candidate. Today unification is needed, and I'm a unifying candidate. I have no maniacal thirst for power, I just want to help the country". In the election, he received 2.25% of the vote, with his best showing in Dnipropetrovsk and the Zaporizhzhia, Mykolaiv and Odesa oblasts. Rabinovich was elected to the Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine's parliament) the same year, placing fourth on the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc's electoral list.
On 14 February 2022, Rabinovich published a post on Facebook, stating that "the war has started" and blaming the West and Ukraine for it. Following the start of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, he left Ukraine and fled abroad.
Well, he ran on a platform that was much more conciliatory to Russia than his position in office, getting a lot of support from Donbas. Now he plays a Ukrainian nationalist that can hardly speak Ukrainian.
I think he was basically told in so many words that he could either get a lucrative deal playing wartime leader or he could get a bullet to the head courtesy of Azov, and he chose the former.
Now he's kind of stuck in this situation forever. He can't end the war with a treaty, because it would probably end in a negotiation to cede territory or for the Ukrainian military to leave Donbas and Luhansk alone. Zelenskyy would get shot in the head by some fanatical nationalist. He can't keep the war going forever, because it's such a mess that it's somehow put a stress on the world's supply of artillery shells.
He's just stuck in this eternal present, he's a human embodiment of the concept of a quagmire
lots of minority groups have members who join their oppressors, it's sad and disgusting but not really uncommon. like have they never heard of a black or gay or trans conservative or fascist?
In Zelensky's defense he ran on a peace platform promising to get some kind of peace negotiations going. It was very popular, though from what I understand the popularity was skewed somewhat towards the eastern half of the country with less support in the Banderite heartland of Galacia. When one he tried to put his promises in action and found out that the president doesn't actually control the country, and that the Nazi formations and their allies had no intention of allowing the war to be stopped.
i could see arguments for zelensky as a tragic figure, though the panama pandora paper reveals that he's deeply corrupt don't really do much for that interpretation imo. though i suppose depending on the timeline (i haven't bothered to check) he could have meant what he promised, realized a bunch of hardened neo-nazi fighters weren't going to take commands from a jewish man and then decided "might as well make some fat stacks at least"
regardless yeah i remember that video of some right-sector (i think? might have been azov or someone else, there are too many nazis to keep straight) fighters flatly telling him to fuck off to his face when he ordered them to stand down
This is not really something to be proud of. It's an admission of completely reactionary behaviour.
It's OK to observe reality. Inventing a false one to suit your ideology is what the nazis do, and they're much better at it than liberals are. They will win at it.
Part of the success of liberal propaganda is getting liberals to performatively tell each other how propagandised they are as if it is totally normal, and for them to praise each other for it.
It's the same mindset as when workers boast about how hard they have to work, as if it's a good thing. Pride in being over worked, and admonishing other workers for not having it as hard as they do. Literally a culture of shaming other workers for not exploiting themselves hard enough for the bourgeoisie owners. They say it to each other with pride, not realising how much they're fucking themselves over.
the advantage that fascists have over liberals is that fascists can openly make shit up and don't care if they have to change what they're saying, whereas liberals have to occasionally jump through hoops to justify cognitive dissonance. Liberals believe everything they say and think there's personal virtue in being naive. Fascists have a similar belief that feeling numb and misanthropic is a personal virtue, but that just helps them say more reactionary gibberish
I guess there are cynical liberals who just know how to parrot the language, but that seems more situational
I don't know. As an anarchist, I do rather agree. However, it extends to all who pursue and attain power over others. That desire and the anti-social behavior typically necessary, historically, to succeed makes me inherently suspicious of their motives, which have also been shown historically to frequently not be aligned with the interests of the working class.
And secondly, if an emergency broadcast went out worldwide, from the UN chambers, featuring Putin, Trump, Xi, and, I don't know, Guy Goma that was to the effect of:
"Citizens of the world. We are reaching you on this special emergency broadcast to inform you that the sky is blue. I repeat, the sky is blue. Goodnight."
I'm pretty sure that all of us would be rather confused and suspicious of the statement and feel a need to validate it. Even if for no other reason but it being a very weird statement to make.
Maybe try understanding the currents of material conditions informing ideology instead of solely reacting to the world around you being subsumed by ideology.
Let's pretend you're right: I have no idea how propaganda works... but Putin does! He has a history of creating fake news, bombing his own population and backstapping his political allies to gain more power.
So you'll understand I'm always a bit suspicious about anything he says.
So if Xi would ever mention that jumping into a bucket full of excrement is a bad idea, you'd consider covering yourself in piss and shit to own Mr. Pooh and the tankies? Sweet! I'd better make that phone call with Xi right now
Saying Zelensky can't possibly be supporting neo-Nazis because he is ethnically Jewish is exactly the same as saying Clarence Thomas can't possibly be supporting white supremacists because he is black. There is such a thing as a racial "pick me".
Yes, it was. I'm honestly shocked. No one seems to know what Russia's causus belli was.
Anyone of that video of the Banderites laughing about how Zelensky deflects all attention from the Nazi formations because Liberals can't hold the idea of a Jewish President in a country dominated by Nazi politics in their heads?
We are fascists for checks notes... not supporting ukrainian nazi militias in their struggle to purge ukraine of the ethnic russians.
Wasn't the fact that "the nazi ukranians with a jewish president are trying to ethnic clean the russians" the same excuse used by Putin to start the invasion?
CW: holocaust, corpses, nazis
suggesting that their president is jewish means they don't have a nazi problem in their military is just as ridiculous as suggesting that america doesn't have a racist cop problem because Obama was black. Imagine if we had elected Bernie Sanders (who is Jewish) in America. Does that mean all the nazis in our military and police would simply disappear? of course not. Nor would have electing Hillary Clinton brought an end to sexism. Nor would electing Pete Buttigieg have brought an end to LGBTphobia. There's a difference between the milestone of electing to high office a member of a marginalized group and the literal end of all discrimination against the marginalized group. The two should not be confused with each other under any circumstances.
Right Sektor antisemite Dmitro Korchynsky says he was disappointed in the Ukrainian people for electing a Jew as president, but points out that it is convenient that the president is Jewish, because it means that it is harder to accuse Ukraine of nazism
Look at this UN vote from 16th December 2021. Note that the ONLY TWO NATIONS IN THE WORLD that failed to denounce nazism,, or at least abstain from voting, were US and Ukraine
C14 leader Yevhan Karas points out that right wing ultranationalists were the leading vanguard of the Euromaidan movement, even if they weren't a majority of the members, and that they, unlike the leftists, were able to secure a lot of power after Euromaidan
Zelensky bans parties to his left, claiming they are Kremlin agents, while allowing groups like Svoboda, C14, Azov battalion, etc. to continue existing
Zelensky admits it is in US interests to use Ukraine
Part 1: A brief history of the OUN-B nazi-collaborationist faction from which current day neo nazis are descended (CW: images of pogroms and holocaust)
Part 2: A brief history of the OUN-B nazi-collaborationist faction from which current day neo nazis are descended (CW: images of pogroms and holocaust)
PDF of declassified CIA operation aerodynamic which leveraged ukrainian nazi collaborators against the soviet union after WW2
Biden before the war admitting the US would target nordstream 2 if Russia goes into Ukraine
EU official Borrell admitting that Europe is dependent on cheap Russian energy, America for security, and China for cheap goods, but that this balance of power is no longer possible, due to the new cold war between America on the one side and Russia/China on the other
Zelensky attempting to negotiate with Azov battalion, telling them to obey cease fire agreements (with the separatists in the Ukrainian civil war). They basically mock him and state their intention to disobey any cease fire agreement.
Just because someone uses something as an excuse doesn't mean it isn't a real problem. America used terrorism, a real problem, as an excuse to invade 7 different countries. The irony being that many of those right wing jihadist terrorist groups the US was fighting were originally CIA-backed anti-soviet reactionaries.
Putin's actual reason for the invasion was Ukraine threatening to join NATO. NATO membership means the US can stage nuclear weapons in your country, train your troops, etc. Putin didn't want US power that close to Moscow (the Russo-Ukrainian border is the closest international border to Moscow). This makes sense. After all, the so-called Cuban missile crisis back in the day actually started when America put nukes in Turkey, about 1200 miles from Moscow, so Moscow put missiles in Cuba, about 1200 miles from Washington. It was a tit-for-tat. After 3 decades of NATO expanding eastward into former Warsaw pact countries (usually under the rhetoric of "increasing security cooperation") Putin finally decided to invade Ukraine. However, yes, it was rhetorically convenient for him to point out the neo nazis in Ukraine.
NATO gave informal promises to Gorbachev to not expand eastward (Gorbachev was stupid to believe these promises and not get them in writing as formal, legally-binding promises)
The Soviet Union tried to join NATO in 1954 but wasn't allowed
Meanwhile NATO kept expanding
and including "former" nazis in its ranks
Saved. I am in awe Comrade. Thank you for this.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST USE FACTS AND CITATIONS AND PRIMARY SOURCE EVIDENCE YOU TANKIES ALWAYS POST A WALL OF DOCUMENTED SOURCES THAT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS AND THEN WHEN WE REFUSE TO READ OR ENGAGE WITH THESE SOURCES IN ANY WAY AND INSTEAD SPEW IGNORANT REDUCTIVE BULLSHIT LIKE A PARROT LIVING IN THE LOBBY OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT YOU CALL US MEAN NAMES YOU TANKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIES
Lol Finland and the Baltics abstained from the "Nazis are bad, actually" vote because of course.
Also, could you throw a CW: on there for holocaust, corpses, and nazis please?
yeah absolutely, my bad
Now I see the power of posting. Saved
What I love about that article from The Independent is that, up until recently when they republished the Robert Frisk article, you could old find the piece in their archives and, conveniently, they redacted the image of Bin Laden to soften the blow as much as possible without outright censoring the article.
too bad for them it's all over web archive and everyone has scans of the newspaper
Have you thought about turning this comment into a post on c/effort?
ok, I'll do it
I'm humbled by your well documented reply. I can't argue with that. Yours is probably the only one comment I've learnt something of.
I'm happy you read it, and had something to say in response. Thanks!
Jewish people can be nazi collaborators. Of which, Zelensky is all-but-explicitly one, given the kinds of people he materially supports and empowers. Source: I’m Jewish
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Wasn't the oligarch that backed Zelensky's career also backing Nazi formations at the same time? I haven't looked in to this stuff in years because why bother, but I recall that being a thing.
this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi
and this guy was also involved
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadim_Rabinovich
just reading a few paragraphs from this one, this kinda jumped out:
Yes but... why?
Well, he ran on a platform that was much more conciliatory to Russia than his position in office, getting a lot of support from Donbas. Now he plays a Ukrainian nationalist that can hardly speak Ukrainian.
I think he was basically told in so many words that he could either get a lucrative deal playing wartime leader or he could get a bullet to the head courtesy of Azov, and he chose the former.
Now he's kind of stuck in this situation forever. He can't end the war with a treaty, because it would probably end in a negotiation to cede territory or for the Ukrainian military to leave Donbas and Luhansk alone. Zelenskyy would get shot in the head by some fanatical nationalist. He can't keep the war going forever, because it's such a mess that it's somehow put a stress on the world's supply of artillery shells.
He's just stuck in this eternal present, he's a human embodiment of the concept of a quagmire
Yeah if Zelensky signed peace giving up territory there's roughly a 100% chance Nazis would spin that into a 'stab in the back' type story
Why what
I think they're asking why a Jewish person would support Nazis
lots of minority groups have members who join their oppressors, it's sad and disgusting but not really uncommon. like have they never heard of a black or gay or trans conservative or fascist?
In Zelensky's defense he ran on a peace platform promising to get some kind of peace negotiations going. It was very popular, though from what I understand the popularity was skewed somewhat towards the eastern half of the country with less support in the Banderite heartland of Galacia. When one he tried to put his promises in action and found out that the president doesn't actually control the country, and that the Nazi formations and their allies had no intention of allowing the war to be stopped.
i could see arguments for zelensky as a tragic figure, though the
panamapandora paper reveals that he's deeply corrupt don't really do much for that interpretation imo. though i suppose depending on the timeline (i haven't bothered to check) he could have meant what he promised, realized a bunch of hardened neo-nazi fighters weren't going to take commands from a jewish man and then decided "might as well make some fat stacks at least"regardless yeah i remember that video of some right-sector (i think? might have been azov or someone else, there are too many nazis to keep straight) fighters flatly telling him to fuck off to his face when he ordered them to stand down
If Putin said "the sky is blue" would the sky suddenly turn green?
If Putin (or Trump, or Xi) one day jumps on the news saying the sky is blue, I'd totally look up with prejudice.
This is not really something to be proud of. It's an admission of completely reactionary behaviour.
It's OK to observe reality. Inventing a false one to suit your ideology is what the nazis do, and they're much better at it than liberals are. They will win at it.
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Part of the success of liberal propaganda is getting liberals to performatively tell each other how propagandised they are as if it is totally normal, and for them to praise each other for it.
It's the same mindset as when workers boast about how hard they have to work, as if it's a good thing. Pride in being over worked, and admonishing other workers for not having it as hard as they do. Literally a culture of shaming other workers for not exploiting themselves hard enough for the bourgeoisie owners. They say it to each other with pride, not realising how much they're fucking themselves over.
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I can't leave my shit alone in like the first 2-3 minutes afterwards I am compelled to do an edit really frequently.
Editing this one just for the sake of it.
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the advantage that fascists have over liberals is that fascists can openly make shit up and don't care if they have to change what they're saying, whereas liberals have to occasionally jump through hoops to justify cognitive dissonance. Liberals believe everything they say and think there's personal virtue in being naive. Fascists have a similar belief that feeling numb and misanthropic is a personal virtue, but that just helps them say more reactionary gibberish
I guess there are cynical liberals who just know how to parrot the language, but that seems more situational
I feel like I'm walking over people's graves with these images sometimes, but who would you even ask about what is respectful and what is too far?
I don't know. As an anarchist, I do rather agree. However, it extends to all who pursue and attain power over others. That desire and the anti-social behavior typically necessary, historically, to succeed makes me inherently suspicious of their motives, which have also been shown historically to frequently not be aligned with the interests of the working class.
And secondly, if an emergency broadcast went out worldwide, from the UN chambers, featuring Putin, Trump, Xi, and, I don't know, Guy Goma that was to the effect of:
"Citizens of the world. We are reaching you on this special emergency broadcast to inform you that the sky is blue. I repeat, the sky is blue. Goodnight."
I'm pretty sure that all of us would be rather confused and suspicious of the statement and feel a need to validate it. Even if for no other reason but it being a very weird statement to make.
Least deranged liberal
Excising large parts of your frontal lobe to own the tankies
wtf lol
lol you do realize you're not supposed to say that unironically, usually people say that as a joke
Am I not allowed to reply to a joke with another joke?
lmao "bro I was just pretending to be a dumbass bro, I swear to god bro"
Uh huh sure bud
Maybe try understanding the currents of material conditions informing ideology instead of solely reacting to the world around you being subsumed by ideology.
You have no idea how propaganda actually works
Let's pretend you're right: I have no idea how propaganda works... but Putin does! He has a history of creating fake news, bombing his own population and backstapping his political allies to gain more power.
So you'll understand I'm always a bit suspicious about anything he says.
So if Xi would ever mention that jumping into a bucket full of excrement is a bad idea, you'd consider covering yourself in piss and shit to own Mr. Pooh and the tankies? Sweet! I'd better make that phone call with Xi right now
Fucking beautiful
This is a bit account right?
I don't know what does that mean.
Saying Zelensky can't possibly be supporting neo-Nazis because he is ethnically Jewish is exactly the same as saying Clarence Thomas can't possibly be supporting white supremacists because he is black. There is such a thing as a racial "pick me".
Yes, it was. I'm honestly shocked. No one seems to know what Russia's causus belli was.
Anyone of that video of the Banderites laughing about how Zelensky deflects all attention from the Nazi formations because Liberals can't hold the idea of a Jewish President in a country dominated by Nazi politics in their heads?
Oh yeah I remember that vid. They were so fucking proud of themselves.
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