Not adding a burning the Star of David emote, apologies, but that's the line I draw, being Jewish. I know that's not the intent stated, but it still is as such. I'm not trying to say that Israel's use of it is in any way legitimate, nor that I disagree that Israel is a genocidal apartheid state that deserves 1000 October 7ths for all the terror they wrought, but it just makes me viscerally uncomfortable to have an emote depicting that.
I'll add as many anti-Israel emotes as y'all and I can come up with except the one where we're toeing the line into, and I hate to use this phrase as a cracker but I don't know how else to describe it, generational trauma. I know the holocaust has been cynically weaponized by this freak fascist ethnostate to do unspeakable horror, but it's innately uncomfortable even as part of the anti-Zionist diaspora to make something like this. It fucking sucks, and I'm sorry, but that's why I scoured for any other representation of Israel that doesn't invoke Judaism as a whole.
I didn't really look at it, but I remember a few years ago when we were arguing about adding that we shouldn't do a burning an IDF flag because of the star of david. I think, anyway. I don't remember what we were arguing on this website last week, let alone two years ago
this is the Israeli army flag, there's a sort of abstract star-of-david-ish shape in the middle, kinda? not the same as the IDF flag, which is green and yellow
Is there a flag with Golda or Bibi on it that we can use? We gotta find you some good alternatives, cause yeah using the star of david is not a good look
I just want to say that I also completely understand and agree with you. It may be too much and unnecessary to have a burning Star of David.
According to Gershom Scholem, the Star of David (magen David) has since only the 19th century been used as a representation of Jewish people as a whole but was used for specific and special religious rituals by Jewish people for far longer. It was probably only because of its use to generally symbolize Jewish people starting in the 19th century that it was picked up by the Zionist movement and now as we know it is sadly intertwined with it. I do find the co-option of the Star of David by Zionism to be reprehensible and, of course, Zionists will also use it in a hateful way which is disgusting, so I don't think Foucaults is wrong in pointing out that it has regrettably added a new chapter in its history, namely in being a hate symbol. But I don't think this discounts its history of meaning as being a deeply religious, ritualistic symbol for the Jewish people since at least the seventh century BCE according to Scholem. This is the tricky part of dealing with fascist/fundamentalist movements which co-opt religious or ethnic symbols and utilize them as a sign of their movement. We want to justifiably reject their movement but we also don't want to identify the symbol, or the people of the symbol, with their movement in the first place because that is exactly what they want—so it takes some care to attack the true enemy. In this case, I think a burning Star of David can be considered an anti-Semitic symbol much in the same way as an emoji of a burning menorah, or a burning Tetragrammaton or any of the Holy Names or even just the Yod. These are all deeply religiously Jewish symbols and should be understood as such. As Leftists we should not always let the Right use or take what they want and I think this is one of those cases when we should still support our Jewish comrades in rupturing Zionism from Judaism and the magen David, specifically.
Full disclosure, but I've ended up in the middle of a conflict of my school where a bunch of Jewish teachers are flipping the fuck out about expressions of Palestinian solidarity and someone literally stole a free Palestine sign out of the only Muslim teacher on staff's room. It's very upsetting how much of the discourse around an ongoing genocide by Israel has been about the importance of making sure that Jewish people in the West are not made even a little bit uncomfortable.
I understand your feelings about this, and I've wanted to respect them in the past, but Israel is killing people en masse and flying that flag over the ruins of their homes. It should be burned, end of story.
If someone else who has access to the emotes tab agrees that I have too much of a conflict-of-interest here and wants to personally make it and add it, then I’ll argue my case and grit my teeth, even though I feel uncomfortable about it and think it invites in some issues that I’d rather not have to second-guess about. I’m not going to do it myself. Sorry.
There’s no conflict of interest here, I also fully support not adding a burning star of david emote. It would be an unforced error to do so and we’ve had this policy in place since the site started while still being vocally anti-settler-colonialist.
you've twice now implied that you no longer care about the concerns of your jewish comrades, which i think is pretty bad in and of itself, but i really feel the need to point out that no amount of burning stars of david is going to improve the situation in palestine even a single iota. none of those people will ever see your fervent anti-israel posting. pushing so hard for an emote to be added to a niche communist website is a complete waste of energy that could be better spent doing anything else.
i'm not trying to be harsh but i genuinely think you need to reconsider the value of the demand you're making
Perhaps you missed the part where, in real life, I'm having to fight tooth and nail to allow students and teachers the right to express solidarity with Palestine, precisely because of Zionists I work with. Zionists who are explicitly using their identity as Jews to censor others' speech. This is not an abstract issue, it's a very real one where I'm having to stick my fucking neck out in a way that has real life consequences. Stick your condescension in a sack and take it elsewhere
If I'll say it IRL, I'll say it on the niche communist website, and you coming at me with the smarmy "it's a waste of energy" bullshit is not going to change that. Why are you wasting your time arguing with me on a niche communist website?
the work you're doing in real life matters and can improve people's lives in some way. what you're pushing for here doesn't, and only serves to make people who are already on our side uncomfortable. i'm not being smarmy or condescending, but you are kind of being an asshole.
e: i gave it some thought and a better way to phrase this would have been to say that you are prioritizing your feelings (and only that) over those of the jewish people on this site in a way that would ordinarily be considered "talking over" the group in question, something we basically never allow.
chalk it up to irreconcilable differences i suppose, because i really can't see it any other way than "disregarding the concerns of their Jewish comrades."
someone literally stole a free Palestine sign out of the only Muslim teacher on staff's room
I'm sorry to hear that, being a Muslim in the west is a struggle that is often invisible to people, because there was never a civil rights movement in the west based around Islam. There are no Oscar-winning movies about Muslims winning a Supreme Court case, or getting a constitutional amendment passed.
But on the "burning star of David" issue, I would ask you to reconsider. Many Jews around the world are not zionists, and in fact many oppose zionism and especially the genocide Israel is currently carrying out in Gaza. Burning the star of David comes across, at first glance, the same as burning a cross on the lawn of a black person. It will draw in the wrong crowd, no matter the intention.
Also, I would never support having an emote displaying the prophet Muhammad. Why? Because there are 2 billion Muslims in the world and most of them are wonderful people. Are there a handful of reactionary, theocratic governments led by Muslim clerics, who have ruthlessly crushed socialist movements? Yes. Erdoğan is an asshole, and his attempt to destroy secularism and socialism in Turkey is despicable. But just because Erdoğan is using Islam for evil, as part of his right-wing ideology, that does not mean Islam itself is evil. It does not mean we should post cartoons of Muhammad everywhere, to spite Erdoğan. Being "precious" about posting pictures of Muhammad is, in truth, a sign of respect to Muslim comrades, not a tacit approval of right-wing Islamic theocracies. It's a complex issue, but I trust WhyEssEff's judgement.
I don't think Malcom X was only fighting for the rights of Muslim black people in America. He is remembered by both Muslim and Christian and atheist Americas as a figure of the black civil rights movement, to the point that I would guess over 50% of Americans don't even know he was Muslim.
I'm hoping that you can be dissuaded from this absurd badgering about having a little cartoon with the star of david burning. Literally just put in a request for a proxy and it'll be fine.
ended up designing my own based on the stern gang's symbol
other hexbear jews lmk if I'm having a brainfart (if so I'll backtrack to blank white with blue bars) but I don't think this specific symbol is very linked to anything but zionism
We would, yes. I'm an anti-Zionist, of course. In no way do I support Israel. There's just a line for me in regards to adding a pictographic representation of burning the Star of David that I'm viscerally uncomfortable crossing. If another person who can access the emotes tab decides to go over my head because this is that much of a conflict-of-interest, then I'll plead my case and then grit my teeth about it, I guess. As the self-appointed emote czar, though, I'm not personally going to add it.
I've added other anti-Zionist emotes here: off the top of my head.
I've always appreciated that this is a line you draw. I've seen the "Why don't we have Israel-cool?" "We thought a burning Star of David might make Nazis feel welcome" "Yeah fair fuck them" exchange a bunch of times, I think it strengthens the site's culture.
What if the Star of David on the flag was replaced with something like a blue letter I in the center, something which makes it clear it's Zionist Israel being represented instead of Judaism as a whole?
Yeah, I was wondering if the star was removed so it was just white with blue bands, but your idea is probably better. If we are going to correctly say the flag deserves no respect, then that must also mean that we can modify it to suit our desires for messaging.
Not adding a burning the Star of David emote, apologies, but that's the line I draw, being Jewish. I know that's not the intent stated, but it still is as such. I'm not trying to say that Israel's use of it is in any way legitimate, nor that I disagree that Israel is a genocidal apartheid state that deserves 1000 October 7ths for all the terror they wrought, but it just makes me viscerally uncomfortable to have an emote depicting that.
I'll add as many anti-Israel emotes as y'all and I can come up with except the one where we're toeing the line into, and I hate to use this phrase as a cracker but I don't know how else to describe it, generational trauma. I know the holocaust has been cynically weaponized by this freak fascist ethnostate to do unspeakable horror, but it's innately uncomfortable even as part of the anti-Zionist diaspora to make something like this. It fucking sucks, and I'm sorry, but that's why I scoured for any other representation of Israel that doesn't invoke Judaism as a whole.
This might be my suburbanite americracker brain showing, but it's really my only major line-in-the-sand. Sorry.
Backing you up on this one.
Your justification makes sense to me, good on ya, comrade
Uncritical support.
Nah this is a good call
honestly I'm still surprised we even added
considering that there is still a burning star of david on it.
It’s abstracted enough. Genuinely didn’t even notice till you pointed it out
I didn't really look at it, but I remember a few years ago when we were arguing about adding
that we shouldn't do a burning an IDF flag because of the star of david. I think, anyway. I don't remember what we were arguing on this website last week, let alone two years ago
this is the Israeli army flag, there's a sort of abstract star-of-david-ish shape in the middle, kinda? not the same as the IDF flag, which is green and yellow
wait, then why is it called idf-cool if it's the israeli army and not the IDF?
Israeli army is a branch within the IDF, so it's same difference. it's just snappier
Is there a flag with Golda or Bibi on it that we can use? We gotta find you some good alternatives, cause yeah using the star of david is not a good look
I just want to say that I also completely understand and agree with you. It may be too much and unnecessary to have a burning Star of David.
According to Gershom Scholem, the Star of David (magen David) has since only the 19th century been used as a representation of Jewish people as a whole but was used for specific and special religious rituals by Jewish people for far longer. It was probably only because of its use to generally symbolize Jewish people starting in the 19th century that it was picked up by the Zionist movement and now as we know it is sadly intertwined with it. I do find the co-option of the Star of David by Zionism to be reprehensible and, of course, Zionists will also use it in a hateful way which is disgusting, so I don't think Foucaults is wrong in pointing out that it has regrettably added a new chapter in its history, namely in being a hate symbol. But I don't think this discounts its history of meaning as being a deeply religious, ritualistic symbol for the Jewish people since at least the seventh century BCE according to Scholem. This is the tricky part of dealing with fascist/fundamentalist movements which co-opt religious or ethnic symbols and utilize them as a sign of their movement. We want to justifiably reject their movement but we also don't want to identify the symbol, or the people of the symbol, with their movement in the first place because that is exactly what they want—so it takes some care to attack the true enemy. In this case, I think a burning Star of David can be considered an anti-Semitic symbol much in the same way as an emoji of a burning menorah, or a burning Tetragrammaton or any of the Holy Names or even just the Yod. These are all deeply religiously Jewish symbols and should be understood as such. As Leftists we should not always let the Right use or take what they want and I think this is one of those cases when we should still support our Jewish comrades in rupturing Zionism from Judaism and the magen David, specifically.
Full disclosure, but I've ended up in the middle of a conflict of my school where a bunch of Jewish teachers are flipping the fuck out about expressions of Palestinian solidarity and someone literally stole a free Palestine sign out of the only Muslim teacher on staff's room. It's very upsetting how much of the discourse around an ongoing genocide by Israel has been about the importance of making sure that Jewish people in the West are not made even a little bit uncomfortable.
I understand your feelings about this, and I've wanted to respect them in the past, but Israel is killing people en masse and flying that flag over the ruins of their homes. It should be burned, end of story.
If someone else who has access to the emotes tab agrees that I have too much of a conflict-of-interest here and wants to personally make it and add it, then I’ll argue my case and grit my teeth, even though I feel uncomfortable about it and think it invites in some issues that I’d rather not have to second-guess about. I’m not going to do it myself. Sorry.
There’s no conflict of interest here, I also fully support not adding a burning star of david emote. It would be an unforced error to do so and we’ve had this policy in place since the site started while still being vocally anti-settler-colonialist.
you've twice now implied that you no longer care about the concerns of your jewish comrades, which i think is pretty bad in and of itself, but i really feel the need to point out that no amount of burning stars of david is going to improve the situation in palestine even a single iota. none of those people will ever see your fervent anti-israel posting. pushing so hard for an emote to be added to a niche communist website is a complete waste of energy that could be better spent doing anything else.
i'm not trying to be harsh but i genuinely think you need to reconsider the value of the demand you're making
Perhaps you missed the part where, in real life, I'm having to fight tooth and nail to allow students and teachers the right to express solidarity with Palestine, precisely because of Zionists I work with. Zionists who are explicitly using their identity as Jews to censor others' speech. This is not an abstract issue, it's a very real one where I'm having to stick my fucking neck out in a way that has real life consequences. Stick your condescension in a sack and take it elsewhere
If I'll say it IRL, I'll say it on the niche communist website, and you coming at me with the smarmy "it's a waste of energy" bullshit is not going to change that. Why are you wasting your time arguing with me on a niche communist website?
the work you're doing in real life matters and can improve people's lives in some way. what you're pushing for here doesn't, and only serves to make people who are already on our side uncomfortable. i'm not being smarmy or condescending, but you are kind of being an asshole.
e: i gave it some thought and a better way to phrase this would have been to say that you are prioritizing your feelings (and only that) over those of the jewish people on this site in a way that would ordinarily be considered "talking over" the group in question, something we basically never allow.
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how would you take these statements?
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I'm sorry to hear that, being a Muslim in the west is a struggle that is often invisible to people, because there was never a civil rights movement in the west based around Islam. There are no Oscar-winning movies about Muslims winning a Supreme Court case, or getting a constitutional amendment passed.
But on the "burning star of David" issue, I would ask you to reconsider. Many Jews around the world are not zionists, and in fact many oppose zionism and especially the genocide Israel is currently carrying out in Gaza. Burning the star of David comes across, at first glance, the same as burning a cross on the lawn of a black person. It will draw in the wrong crowd, no matter the intention.
Also, I would never support having an emote displaying the prophet Muhammad. Why? Because there are 2 billion Muslims in the world and most of them are wonderful people. Are there a handful of reactionary, theocratic governments led by Muslim clerics, who have ruthlessly crushed socialist movements? Yes. Erdoğan is an asshole, and his attempt to destroy secularism and socialism in Turkey is despicable. But just because Erdoğan is using Islam for evil, as part of his right-wing ideology, that does not mean Islam itself is evil. It does not mean we should post cartoons of Muhammad everywhere, to spite Erdoğan. Being "precious" about posting pictures of Muhammad is, in truth, a sign of respect to Muslim comrades, not a tacit approval of right-wing Islamic theocracies. It's a complex issue, but I trust WhyEssEff's judgement.
Malcolm X: am i a joke to you???
I don't think Malcom X was only fighting for the rights of Muslim black people in America. He is remembered by both Muslim and Christian and atheist Americas as a figure of the black civil rights movement, to the point that I would guess over 50% of Americans don't even know he was Muslim.
Dude, just settle for a flag modified to not have the star, it's not that difficult.
What are you talking about? We don't even have that, lol
We don't but I think our kind and patient emote Czar would be happy to add that
Okay? I should settle for a hypothetical thing that might possibly exist at some point? I'll get right on that
You are being obtuse, talking to you is like a prison. You can request it and it'll probably be added within the day.
You are welcome to stop talking at any time
I'm hoping that you can be dissuaded from this absurd badgering about having a little cartoon with the star of david burning. Literally just put in a request for a proxy and it'll be fine.
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ended up designing my own based on the stern gang's symbol
other hexbear jews lmk if I'm having a brainfart (if so I'll backtrack to blank white with blue bars) but I don't think this specific symbol is very linked to anything but zionism
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So there are some specific offices as well we can use. The presidential flag though that is a Menorah so that might be a bit iffy. The flag of Tel Aviv , or Likud's flag
Wouldn't the Jewish people be better off without a genocidal ethnostate claiming to speak for them?
We would, yes. I'm an anti-Zionist, of course. In no way do I support Israel. There's just a line for me in regards to adding a pictographic representation of burning the Star of David that I'm viscerally uncomfortable crossing. If another person who can access the emotes tab decides to go over my head because this is that much of a conflict-of-interest, then I'll plead my case and then grit my teeth about it, I guess. As the self-appointed emote czar, though, I'm not personally going to add it.
I've added other anti-Zionist emotes here:
off the top of my head.
Thank you for being so patient in discussing this matter. I think you're in the right about the star.
As a fellow anti-zionist Jew, I feel similarly. Thank you for your patience.
I fully support your decision, comrade.
I've always appreciated that this is a line you draw. I've seen the "Why don't we have Israel-cool?" "We thought a burning Star of David might make Nazis feel welcome" "Yeah fair fuck them" exchange a bunch of times, I think it strengthens the site's culture.
What if the Star of David on the flag was replaced with something like a blue letter I in the center, something which makes it clear it's Zionist Israel being represented instead of Judaism as a whole?
Yeah, I was wondering if the star was removed so it was just white with blue bands, but your idea is probably better. If we are going to correctly say the flag deserves no respect, then that must also mean that we can modify it to suit our desires for messaging.
Agreed. Someone in the thread posted an emoji of just an off-center flame with no flag, called :isntrael-cool: and that was pretty funny
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