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Not adding a burning the Star of David emote, apologies, but that's the line I draw, being Jewish. I know that's not the intent stated, but it still is as such. I'm not trying to say that Israel's use of it is in any way legitimate, nor that I disagree that Israel is a genocidal apartheid state that deserves 1000 October 7ths for all the terror they wrought, but it just makes me viscerally uncomfortable to have an emote depicting that.
I'll add as many anti-Israel emotes as y'all and I can come up with except the one where we're toeing the line into, and I hate to use this phrase as a cracker but I don't know how else to describe it, generational trauma. I know the holocaust has been cynically weaponized by this freak fascist ethnostate to do unspeakable horror, but it's innately uncomfortable even as part of the anti-Zionist diaspora to make something like this. It fucking sucks, and I'm sorry, but that's why I scoured for any other representation of Israel that doesn't invoke Judaism as a whole.
This might be my suburbanite americracker brain showing, but it's really my only major line-in-the-sand. Sorry.
Your justification makes sense to me, good on ya, comrade
honestly I'm still surprised we even added
considering that there is still a burning star of david on it.It’s abstracted enough. Genuinely didn’t even notice till you pointed it out
I didn't really look at it, but I remember a few years ago when we were arguing about adding
that we shouldn't do a burning an IDF flag because of the star of david. I think, anyway. I don't remember what we were arguing on this website last week, let alone two years agothis is the Israeli army flag, there's a sort of abstract star-of-david-ish shape in the middle, kinda? not the same as the IDF flag, which is green and yellow
wait, then why is it called idf-cool if it's the israeli army and not the IDF?
Is there a flag with Golda or Bibi on it that we can use? We gotta find you some good alternatives, cause yeah using the star of david is not a good look
I just want to say that I also completely understand and agree with you. It may be too much and unnecessary to have a burning Star of David.
According to Gershom Scholem, the Star of David (magen David) has since only the 19th century been used as a representation of Jewish people as a whole but was used for specific and special religious rituals by Jewish people for far longer. It was probably only because of its use to generally symbolize Jewish people starting in the 19th century that it was picked up by the Zionist movement and now as we know it is sadly intertwined with it. I do find the co-option of the Star of David by Zionism to be reprehensible and, of course, Zionists will also use it in a hateful way which is disgusting, so I don't think Foucaults is wrong in pointing out that it has regrettably added a new chapter in its history, namely in being a hate symbol. But I don't think this discounts its history of meaning as being a deeply religious, ritualistic symbol for the Jewish people since at least the seventh century BCE according to Scholem. This is the tricky part of dealing with fascist/fundamentalist movements which co-opt religious or ethnic symbols and utilize them as a sign of their movement. We want to justifiably reject their movement but we also don't want to identify the symbol, or the people of the symbol, with their movement in the first place because that is exactly what they want—so it takes some care to attack the true enemy. In this case, I think a burning Star of David can be considered an anti-Semitic symbol much in the same way as an emoji of a burning menorah, or a burning Tetragrammaton or any of the Holy Names or even just the Yod. These are all deeply religiously Jewish symbols and should be understood as such. As Leftists we should not always let the Right use or take what they want and I think this is one of those cases when we should still support our Jewish comrades in rupturing Zionism from Judaism and the magen David, specifically.
Full disclosure, but I've ended up in the middle of a conflict of my school where a bunch of Jewish teachers are flipping the fuck out about expressions of Palestinian solidarity and someone literally stole a free Palestine sign out of the only Muslim teacher on staff's room. It's very upsetting how much of the discourse around an ongoing genocide by Israel has been about the importance of making sure that Jewish people in the West are not made even a little bit uncomfortable.
I understand your feelings about this, and I've wanted to respect them in the past, but Israel is killing people en masse and flying that flag over the ruins of their homes. It should be burned, end of story.
If someone else who has access to the emotes tab agrees that I have too much of a conflict-of-interest here and wants to personally make it and add it, then I’ll argue my case and grit my teeth, even though I feel uncomfortable about it and think it invites in some issues that I’d rather not have to second-guess about. I’m not going to do it myself. Sorry.
There’s no conflict of interest here, I also fully support not adding a burning star of david emote. It would be an unforced error to do so and we’ve had this policy in place since the site started while still being vocally anti-settler-colonialist.
you've twice now implied that you no longer care about the concerns of your jewish comrades, which i think is pretty bad in and of itself, but i really feel the need to point out that no amount of burning stars of david is going to improve the situation in palestine even a single iota. none of those people will ever see your fervent anti-israel posting. pushing so hard for an emote to be added to a niche communist website is a complete waste of energy that could be better spent doing anything else.
i'm not trying to be harsh but i genuinely think you need to reconsider the value of the demand you're making
Perhaps you missed the part where, in real life, I'm having to fight tooth and nail to allow students and teachers the right to express solidarity with Palestine, precisely because of Zionists I work with. Zionists who are explicitly using their identity as Jews to censor others' speech. This is not an abstract issue, it's a very real one where I'm having to stick my fucking neck out in a way that has real life consequences. Stick your condescension in a sack and take it elsewhere
If I'll say it IRL, I'll say it on the niche communist website, and you coming at me with the smarmy "it's a waste of energy" bullshit is not going to change that. Why are you wasting your time arguing with me on a niche communist website?
the work you're doing in real life matters and can improve people's lives in some way. what you're pushing for here doesn't, and only serves to make people who are already on our side uncomfortable. i'm not being smarmy or condescending, but you are kind of being an asshole.
e: i gave it some thought and a better way to phrase this would have been to say that you are prioritizing your feelings (and only that) over those of the jewish people on this site in a way that would ordinarily be considered "talking over" the group in question, something we basically never allow.
I [...] was content to defer to our Jewish comrades' opinions on the matter. I don't feel that way anymore.
I understand your feelings about this, and I've wanted to respect them in the past
how would you take these statements?
chalk it up to irreconcilable differences i suppose, because i really can't see it any other way than "disregarding the concerns of their Jewish comrades."
someone literally stole a free Palestine sign out of the only Muslim teacher on staff's room
I'm sorry to hear that, being a Muslim in the west is a struggle that is often invisible to people, because there was never a civil rights movement in the west based around Islam. There are no Oscar-winning movies about Muslims winning a Supreme Court case, or getting a constitutional amendment passed.
But on the "burning star of David" issue, I would ask you to reconsider. Many Jews around the world are not zionists, and in fact many oppose zionism and especially the genocide Israel is currently carrying out in Gaza. Burning the star of David comes across, at first glance, the same as burning a cross on the lawn of a black person. It will draw in the wrong crowd, no matter the intention.
Also, I would never support having an emote displaying the prophet Muhammad. Why? Because there are 2 billion Muslims in the world and most of them are wonderful people. Are there a handful of reactionary, theocratic governments led by Muslim clerics, who have ruthlessly crushed socialist movements? Yes. Erdoğan is an asshole, and his attempt to destroy secularism and socialism in Turkey is despicable. But just because Erdoğan is using Islam for evil, as part of his right-wing ideology, that does not mean Islam itself is evil. It does not mean we should post cartoons of Muhammad everywhere, to spite Erdoğan. Being "precious" about posting pictures of Muhammad is, in truth, a sign of respect to Muslim comrades, not a tacit approval of right-wing Islamic theocracies. It's a complex issue, but I trust WhyEssEff's judgement.
there was never a civil rights movement in the west based around Islam.
Malcolm X: am i a joke to you???
I don't think Malcom X was only fighting for the rights of Muslim black people in America. He is remembered by both Muslim and Christian and atheist Americas as a figure of the black civil rights movement, to the point that I would guess over 50% of Americans don't even know he was Muslim.
Dude, just settle for a flag modified to not have the star, it's not that difficult.
What are you talking about? We don't even have that, lol
We don't but I think our kind and patient emote Czar would be happy to add that
Okay? I should settle for a hypothetical thing that might possibly exist at some point? I'll get right on that
You are being obtuse, talking to you is like a prison. You can request it and it'll probably be added within the day.
ended up designing my own based on the stern gang's symbol
other hexbear jews lmk if I'm having a brainfart (if so I'll backtrack to blank white with blue bars) but I don't think this specific symbol is very linked to anything but zionism
So there are some specific offices as well we can use. The presidential flag though that is a Menorah so that might be a bit iffy. The flag of Tel Aviv , or Likud's flag
Wouldn't the Jewish people be better off without a genocidal ethnostate claiming to speak for them?
We would, yes. I'm an anti-Zionist, of course. In no way do I support Israel. There's just a line for me in regards to adding a pictographic representation of burning the Star of David that I'm viscerally uncomfortable crossing. If another person who can access the emotes tab decides to go over my head because this is that much of a conflict-of-interest, then I'll plead my case and then grit my teeth about it, I guess. As the self-appointed emote czar, though, I'm not personally going to add it.
I've added other anti-Zionist emotes here:
off the top of my head.Thank you for being so patient in discussing this matter. I think you're in the right about the star.
As a fellow anti-zionist Jew, I feel similarly. Thank you for your patience.
I've always appreciated that this is a line you draw. I've seen the "Why don't we have Israel-cool?" "We thought a burning Star of David might make Nazis feel welcome" "Yeah fair fuck them" exchange a bunch of times, I think it strengthens the site's culture.
What if the Star of David on the flag was replaced with something like a blue letter I in the center, something which makes it clear it's Zionist Israel being represented instead of Judaism as a whole?
Yeah, I was wondering if the star was removed so it was just white with blue bands, but your idea is probably better. If we are going to correctly say the flag deserves no respect, then that must also mean that we can modify it to suit our desires for messaging.
Agreed. Someone in the thread posted an emoji of just an off-center flame with no flag, called :isntrael-cool: and that was pretty funny
Rethink having a burning star of David as a site emoji. You're not missing anything, you can express all anti Israel and antizionist sentiment you want, and detail it with
and if you'd like. You're not missing anything and you understand just fine why this site doesn't need an emoji like that.You're not missing anything and you understand just fine why this site doesn't need an emoji like that.
Thanks for just assuming I'm posting in bad faith. Love to be patronized
I'm not saying you're an antisemite, I'm saying the reason is pretty obvious, no? I'm ESL, I have a hard time conveying tone in English text.
Fair enough. I understand the reason just fine. I was here when it was originally discussed, and was content to defer to our Jewish comrades' opinions on the matter.
I don't feel that way anymore.
Palestinians are the only kind of people who cannot even express that they are oppressed without having to worry about the feelings of their fucking oppressors. The left and other allies of the oppressed would look ridiculous if this kind of tone policing was done against indigenous people anywhere else.
I don't want us to bring in a burning star of david symbol, but it is absurd.without having to worry about the feelings of their fucking oppressors
TBF oppressors are always complaining about their feelings, but it usually doesn't work because oppressors usually can't cynically exploit their grandparents trauma.
every time I want to post a burning Israeli flag I donate to Palestine Children's Relief Fund instead
We have had Jewish comrades here and in other posts in the past say it makes them uncomfortable. That should be the last word, full stop. That is in no way equivalent to random Zionists saying “Free Palestine” makes them feel unsafe. I am not Jewish but if I was that comparison would piss me off. If the big TC69 struggle sessions taught us anything, it’s that we always default to our comrades here when they say something isn’t cool and we always show grace.
Burning Israel flag is likely to draw the wrong kinds of people and give chuds more fuel to criticize us in bad faith. I don't think it's worth it.
Unrelated, but does "Kill Arabs" give off "Blacks rule" vibes to anyone else?
Unrelated, but does "Kill Arabs" give off "Blacks rule" vibes to anyone else?
Given the sheer number of videos I've seen of Israelis yelling Death To Arabs, no, it doesn't
Oh, I absolutely believe that Zionists believe this. Just commenting on the shittiness of the slogan and the crude graffiti vibes.
If I believed that I would write "death to" rather than "kill." Makes a better slogan, but since when were fascists smart?
I'm
on this, but frankly the mods would clearly 
before they got out of hand. As socialists we're all clearly able to distinguish Judaism from Israel (despite the depressing number of Jewish institutions backing this continual genocide 
)The mods work hard enough as it is. I totally understand if they don't want to create extra work for very marginal benefit.
True, I'm not sure what benefit it'd provide at all. It'd be fine to just have an Israel-cool flag with just the star of David replaced by text that says
Israel
I understand the anger, and that if such an emote existed you would use it as intended, but an emote of basically a Jewish symbol burning is just trouble waiting to happen.
It was likely an at least partly cynical move on Israel's part to do so with their flag, and that sucks, but it is what it is.
We already have rules against bigotry that are vigorously enforced. It's ridiculous to see an ongoing genocide happening and say oh no we can't have a picture of a burning flag because some people might think it's problematic.
Invoking a genocide so you can post an emoji on a shit posting forum is WAY too online dude
As Ive said elsewhere in the thread, I'm currently dealing with Zionists at my place of work trying to shut down all expressions of Palestinian solidarity, so not all of us have the luxury of dismissing this issue so flippantly, "dude"
All these Jewish comrades/other comrades in the thread saying why they aren't cool with this idea, citing their real world experience as why, and you think WE are the ones not taking YOUR experience into account?
Are you picturing everyone else here but you just living in those star wars tanks when they aren't posting?
Had deleted the comment, but since you clearly already saw it, I'll restore it.
I'm saying YOU are the one being dismissive, since YOUR critique is essentially "you care about this too much."
homie if you insist on taking your feelings about the bullshit you're going thru at your job and funneling it into this emoji thing, and you think anyone here disagreeing about the emoji is the same as shitting on your real life situation, I don't really know where to go from here
I hope you dont take this the wrong way, i say it with peace and love -- you gotta take a step back and see this for what it is. something I learned thru my years of doing political actions and work is that using your time outside of those fights to vibe is so much more effective than using it to shadowbox people on your side. Not every aspect of your life has to be a battleground
I'm conflicted
On the one hand you do make some good points but there is something else to consider
If the Star of David has crossed the threshold from religious symbol to hate symbol then would having an emoji of it, even burning, be in good taste to their victims? We don't have a :confederacy-cool: or a :nazi-germany-cool: flag emoji either and I think there's a reason for that
The use of the Star of David by zionists has always been disgusting, I honestly don't know what it will mean in the future but I really hope it hasn't been tarnished forever by zionism
Ngl I’d appreciate a :confederacy-cool:. Technically it doesn’t exist anymore but I see people flying that fucking flag every god damn day
We don't have a :confederacy-cool: or a :nazi-germany-cool:
I think it's because neither of those states exists anymore, whereas Israel very much does
Having a swastika emoji, at all, would immediately be decontexualized and used as proof we are secretly fascists.
Same goes for a burning star of David.
Burning Confederacy, maybe fine, mostly because the movement around that flag is a complete joke
I respectfully submit that as someone that lives in the American south, the confederacy has never stopped existing
we are not having a burning star of david especially now.
It is extremely important to keep anti-semites from coopting anti-zionism as that is what Zionism wants them to do. It delegitimises anti-zionism to have imagry that is frankly anti-semitic
I'm not a Jewish person, but the imagery that immediately and involuntarily springs into my mind when I see a burning Star of David is that of people and industrial ovens. Personally, I couldn't just decouple a symbol like that in my head from the more notorious of Nazi atrocities any more than if I were to try not to think of fascism when I see a swastika. I thought this was a common if not universal association, and that's why we never had the emoji in the first place but I guess not.
Obviously, Israel as a state should burn and no one should have to hold back from showing their disgust and rage at it, at the fascist settler colonizers that make it up, and anyone who supports it/them. But expressing that rage by specifically using the most well-known symbol for Judaism on fire would, in a small way, be going along with the Zionist agenda to associate Judaism with Zionism.
@WhyEssEff@hexbear.net I'm totally with you on this, and I'm grateful you draw a hard line at not implementing that emoji. I hope the other mods and admins do too.
We do. Not depicting the star of david burning is an extremely obvious standard for us.
Hard agree with OP. “Precious” is a good word to describe it. It’s a symbol of genocide at this point.
Verging on a struggle session about the historical precedent for and entitlement to a particular emote would be one of the funniests bits this site did, if the background context weren't an ongoing genocide.
