Defend China. How is it currently socialist?
Some things to respond to (the gatcha questions):
The rapid expansion of capital, foreign and local, and the reemergence of capital accumulation as a production goal in the end of the 20th century
The existence of megacorporations, especially private megacorporations such as tencent and foxconn
the state of labor rights in the aforementioned megacorporations, and the state of labor rights in the industrial sector as a whole
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they're amplified by American media)
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism's supremacy on the internet)
The social credit system
idk i guess talk about the Uyghurs if you want, but I don't really want that to become the entire discussion, as it has a tendency to be, so if you talk about that, don't make it the entirety of your defense or attack
and let's try to keep this relatively civil? Like, a random post and argument between some leftists on the internet isn't actually going to like, collapse china's rising economic and political power into nothing. We can't actually do shit about china, good or not, so try not to make this a flame war?
Nobody is claiming they are currently socialist. SWCC is not Socialism. China is not claiming to be socialist and MLs do not claim it is socialist. It is SWCC. HOWEVER, we do claim it remains adherent to the socialist path, SWCC is an adaptation of socialism to the current global material conditions. The conditions in the world changed when the neoliberals came up with neoliberalism and globalism as methods of combatting revolution which they started in the Thatcher/Reagan years, they have since then distributed the modes of production globally so that countries are forced to participate in a global system of trade in order to function, this was their answer to try and prevent another USSR ever happening again. Prior to globalisation countries could trade with 4-5 neighbours and get almost everything they needed because all countries kept a significant manufacturing base. Post-globalisation countries must participate with hundreds of others or your growth is crippled. This is what enables the weaponisation of sanctions to cripple socialist countries. SWCC is an adaptation to this, accepting the simple fact that you can not grow without participating under these conditions. HOWEVER, it is not capitalist and Eric Li explains why in the best and shortest way in this clip: https://mobile.twitter.com/Garou_Hidalgo/status/1259288982787162113
Protecting the party. It's still just as damaging to the socialist path if unrest occurs from the left infighting as it would be from the right. Ultras were not looked upon kindly by Mao or Lenin either though.
Is imprisoning billionaires and taking all their shit if they don't walk in lock-step with the socialist path strong enough repression for you? This man attacked the 4 cardinal principles of the party, those are:
The Chinese showed incredible foresight in understanding the future direction of internet media. They recognised that online media companies would one day be more powerful the traditional bourgeois media (newspapers/news/tv) and stopped them from operating in their country. All of the major online tech companies are American. All of them would be weaponised to push liberalism within China if they operated there. Instead, China has the same products, but Chinese, not America, thus keeping them from being weaponised by the external forces that want to see China fall.
This is just a debt system like your credit score. It is literally only used for debt/loans. It's honestly used for LESS things than your credit score is. All discussion on this topic is incredibly distorted.
Every single Uighur allegation debunked.
The fact that a single billionaire has ever been jailed in China makes it closer to socialism than anything in the West, and even if you disagree with every iota of what China is, you cannot deny that is fucking metal as shit.
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If you investigate the convictions and reasons behind them, it reveals a false equivalency. They have a "kill pigs list" for billionaires.
More general sources 1 2 3 4 5 (a slideshow!)
Some specific examples: Ding Yuxin
Wu Ying - not executed, but sentenced to death and resentenced
Wang Zhenhua (Punishment shoulda been greater) - doing what he is convicted of in the US would meant it gets swept under the rug - Epstein, Trump 👀👀
oop, and as I say that, Zhao Zhiyong
Liu Han
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The ramp-up in punishment of these elites is more or less a part of Xi's anti-corruption drive, which, if I'm correct, was in response to the corruption and rot that had been normalised in the CPC partly due to economic liberalisation and the ossification of the bureaucracy. I think characterising the punishment of these elites as being to preserve the status quo of "Chinese capitalism", given the nature of Xi's background and goals, is incorrect.
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Who? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility; I'm just struggling to think of an example. The whole "no one went to jail for causing the 2008 recession" bit comes to mind.
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Bernie Madoff is a good example of this too, now that you mention it. Your point also makes me want to dig into the charges filed against the billionaires China imprisons.
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My friend, have you actually looked at the timeline for the reduction of poverty in China? The country has only very VERY recently gotten it to levels of acceptability that the developed world has enjoyed for 40 years and the country maintains it as its key priority for the next 5 years also. Complete and total elimination of poverty comes before lifting the population to the kind of comfortable middle-class bourgeois lifestyle you enjoy.
I'm honestly a bit surprised that a leftist criticism would be "why aren't they making a middle class fast enough?" instead of "why aren't they eliminating poverty and homelessness immediately?". I can only really assume you don't ask the latter because you know that's their current priority. Development is not a switch, it is a process. This does not happen instantly, it happens with year on year progress. They are well on the way to completely and total elimination of poverty.
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Is there a better, more proven alternative? If not, any attempt to move society left would be considered "a project which is untested."
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If there's not a better alternative, yeah, this sucks, but it might be making the best of a bad situation. Sometimes there are no good options -- look at the upcoming election.
For me, this is where the concept of critical support comes in. You don't have to support everything China does, or even most of what it does, but you can push back against racism and U.S. propaganda, and acknowledge where they do things right. No one is suggesting we just copy/paste China's government onto the U.S., anyway -- any sort of leftist project in the U.S. is going to be a mix of ideas from other countries plus whatever ideas we come up with on our own.
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Not really, there are capitalists in China with a lot of economic power, but they don’t constitute a “strong capitalist class”. Look at who constitutes the membership of CCP committee, especially as you go higher up. The capitalist class, to the extent that it even exists as a class in China, has no political power and is under the thumb of the Communist Party.
Imagine what would happen if the Chinese government suddenly decided to become a proper communist state with democratic worker ownership, full equality, etc. China would destabilize and its economy would probably plummet since it wouldn't be able to do all the nasty things that capitalism does. The US would then exploit that weakness and possibly overthrow the CCP and replace it with a right wing dictatorship.
Alternatively, China can bide time building up its economy which will eventually surpass the US (and who knows, maybe the US will collapse on its own). Once China is significantly "stronger" than the US, they can theoretically convert to a proper socialist state without interference.
Does this situation suck? Yeah, very much. I feel like it's the smart thing to do, though.
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I agree that the CCP is probably not socialist through-and-through, and that is certainly concerning. On the other hand, the fact that the party maintains dominance over capital and throws billionaires in jail is encouraging. All it would take is a strong China and a capable socialist hardliner to lead it to form a proper socialist state.
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What the fuck is "CCP"?
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