In this time, when it is clear that Biden will not get in without the Left, and the mentality is "anyone but trump" it is the perfect time to rally behind a revolutionary third party. A Greens/DSA/BernieBro alliance could seriously hold the election hostage. If this is not the time, when the fuck will it ever be? obviously this is not enough, but you can "hold them accountable" way more than you could hold joe fuckin biden and the democrats

  • Ren [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    deleted by creator

    • Ren [he/him]
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      • okay [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        The fact that anyone ever downvotes my posts really shows how bad capitalism is

    • GVAGUY3 [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      Literally every single DSA person, except one I know is voting third party. American left does need to mature into an non-electoral movement, but we need time, and sadly this isn't the moment. Maybe 2024, but not now. We just prepare for the worst option.

  • zopet [any]
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    4 years ago

    because for all the good things about bernie that made him worth supporting almost the entire top of his movement was staffed by bougie careerist who immediately undercut any chance of this happening and did so with his help. the entire career path for that type of person is to lead failed leftist efforts and then get a media/party/lobbyist job. escalating things to the point where that path would get cut off would always get vetoed by that type of leadership which is why the mass revolts on the streets started and could only really start without those people leading.

    it's a big part of why ultimately the top of any american leftist structure needs to be based outside of electoralism even if we participate in it.

  • Coolkidbozzy [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    The best theory I have for why this hasn't happened is the leader of the largest coalition of leftists (Bernie) is openly supporting Biden, and there is no leadership structure to take his place and create an organized action like this

    • ap1 [any,undecided]
      hexagon
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      4 years ago

      was the volunteer systems not organised? there was such a huge door knocking contingent that could easily flip on dems?

      • garbology [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        organised

        Bernie didn't organize people, those barnstorms mobilized people.

        Big difference: mobilized people are given a single directive from a centralized hierarchy with the expectation that they return to their lives afterwards.

        Leftists need to organize people into persistent independent parallel structures.

        • ap1 [any,undecided]
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          4 years ago

          this is very true - i hoped the barnstorms could actually organise but i guess they did not

      • s_p_l_o_d_e [they/them,he/him]
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        4 years ago

        I think they mean after Bernie endorsed Biden, there's no structure that could replace Bernie but keep that same left contingent mobilized and to move on with another candidate/leader

          • joshuaism [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            Because Howie doesn't have daily FB ads asking for more donations. How you gonna develop that sweet meme magic if you aren't saturating the media consumption of your most ardent supporters?

  • frest [none/use name]
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    'hold the election hostage' absolutely not. American turnout is like sub-30%, and of that 30% how many of them are committed and organized leftists? There are many tangible goals out there for people to organize and pursue, but trying to bully the DNC is absolutely lowest priority dead-end electoral nonsense.

    • _else [she/her,they/them]
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      4 years ago

      as far as I'm concerned; the DNC is holding the election hostage, and I do not negotiate with terrorists.

      unless they're very pretty and kinda naked. and then, I mean, practical terms I still don't, but I wouldn't mind.

    • ap1 [any,undecided]
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      4 years ago

      its over 50% turnout of those who can vote, fym - very few are enthusiastic about biden among democrats - he didnt exactly do well until everyone was forced to drop out now did he?

  • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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    A Greens/DSA/BernieBro alliance could seriously hold the election hostage.

    A hostage situation is a negotiation. There's no hostage situation here because there's no chance Biden will give the left anything it wants. He can't actually do anything until he's elected, and if he's elected he has no obligation to keep any promises he makes (and obviously won't). The primary was the negotiation, Bernie was the compromise, and we lost. All we can do is (maybe) spike the election at this point, and "if I don't win (and there's no chance of me winning), you don't, either" is not a tactic that sounds reasonable to anyone outside of your group. A negotiation sounds reasonable, but again, we're past the point of negotiation.

    There are four outcomes here:

    1. Biden loses with the left voting for someone else. The left will get blamed, there's a small chance the left will be able to effectively communicate their reasoning, and everyone else in the Democratic party will reject that reasoning; see above. Even worse, the libs will trot out the "oh you could have negotiated to push Biden left" bullshit, knowing full well that the negotiation ship sailed sometime around Super Tuesday. The "leftists will never come out and vote for Democrats so why even bother" narrative will be strengthened.
    2. Biden loses with the left voting for Biden. The left will still get blamed, of course, but it's possible that left-bashing won't catch on because it's too far from reality for libs to accept. After all, they tried to make left-bashing the scapegoat for 2016 and largely failed. Why? Every time it was brought up it was followed by "Bernie did 40 campaign events for Hillary and more Bernie voters came out for Hillary in 2016 than Hillary voters came out for Obama in 2008." Libs will swallow a lot of shit, but stuff like that is too indisputably true for them to deny.
    3. Biden wins with the left voting for someone else. This is potentially the worst-case scenario, as, to libs, they've proven they don't need the left. Not only will the left not show up to vote for Democrats (a constant left-bashing talking point), but Democrats won without them anyway. Democrats will view themselves as fine with their new neocon friends who totally won't slit their throats at the first opportunity. Biden either becomes Bush III or an even less-effective second-term Obama. Three Supreme Court justices die and Biden either nominates clones of Antonin Scalia or doesn't get to pick anyone at all.
    4. Biden wins with the left voting for Biden. Biden has the same presidency as Option 3, but the left is (to a degree) inoculated against getting bashed over at least this election (similar to Option 2.)

    There are no good outcomes. Not voting for Biden certainly won't produce anything good; don't fool yourself. You don't get to negotiate when you've already lost, and even if you can pull off an electoral murder-suicide that's not going to do anything productive.

    Voting isn't some moral imperative; it's a (limited) political tactic. Voting for Biden is bad (again: there are no good outcomes on the table), but win or lose it likely gives the left the best chances in any future elections. For spiking the election to work we'd need to effectively communicate our reasons for doing so (we can't), the libs would need to step away from reflexive left-bashing and have a genuine moment of introspection (they won't), the libs would need to decide -- for the first time in decades, at least -- to play nice with the left in the immediate aftermath of the left putting a stake in Biden (they won't), and we'll have to make the case that next time we'll come out to vote for a Dem (despite the fact that we just did the opposite of that, and only if we like the candidate).

    • hagensfohawk [none/use name]
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      4 years ago

      I think this is all a bit moot because there's is not an actual organized left in the US, except for maybe in NYC.

      Biden isn't going to lose PA because Philly DSA and their 300 votes held out lol

  • Dimmer06 [he/him,comrade/them]
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    4 years ago

    Besides everything that has already been said, the Democratic party has made it clear that they don't give two shits about us. Their long term and 2020 strategy is to pick up moderate Republicans and independents. What leftists should be doing is uniting around not voting for Biden and loudly communicating that we won't so that if he loses and we inevitably get blamed we can point to the fact that we clearly were not going to vote for Biden and it's the fault of the Democrats for discounting that. Sadly man leftists feel inclined to support the competent friendly bourgeois party as if the Republicans are the reason America sucks and not the class dictatorship of the bourgeois

  • LangdonAlger [any]
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    4 years ago

    Biden would rather lose without the left than win with it

  • glimmer_twin [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    leftists don’t give a fuck about trying to win bourgeois elections