I've noticed some of them are trying to infiltrate chapo.chat so keep your eyes open for people spreading sectarian lies.
Stop looking mad & owned, or we'll just have a war of screenshots being posted back and forth, with text getting smaller and smaller as it gets swallowed down the black hole of compression.
There's no need to engage with everything another site says. Let's not turn this site into mocking leftists that we disagree with, please.
Yeah, ignore them. If they wanted shit to succeed, they'd talk to us and try and build relations. But we're not interested in wreckers.
"ML is inherently homophobic" is a take I hear from anarchists all the time and it never fails to leave me dumbfounded.
I mean I think there are some tankies that are wayyy too ready to hand wave away the treatment of homosexuals under Stalin, but saying ML is inherently homophobic is a bad take
struggle time! this is why anarchists tend to be uncomfortable about people identifying as a tankie, because while plenty of us don't believe every ML is a tankie as we'd use the word (support of the USSR's worst shit) and are fully capable of being critical of the same shit we dislike, when people shitpost as being that it makes it hard to tell who's "just joking" and who genuinely wishes anarchists bodily harm in the event of a revolution.
that said, you made those posts specifically in the context of getting an ML trying to purge anarchists from the community to shut the fuck up about the mods being biased against ML's, so critical support.
It seems like they'd start to wonder if maybe their opinions are silly when they realize how many lgbt+ MLs there are. And how incredibly inclusive they are. Do they think communities made up largely of lgbt+ people and openly, whole-heartedly supportive of lgbt+ people secretly hate the gays and want to throw them in gulags? How can these opinions even come to be?
How can these opinions even come to be?
One issue with anarchists is that they often wind up repeating oversimplified anti-communist propaganda when they criticize MLs. Oh, Stalin criminalized same-sex relationships? Guess that's the end of the story -- no need to examine LGBT rights under Lenin, or LGBT rights in modern-day Cuba, or to compare any of these countries to what came before or to what capitalist countries were doing at the same time. And definitely don't pay any attention to what today's American MLs have to say about LGBT rights.
Definitely shouldn't examine the role that western funding of reactionary religious organizations, during the global war on communism, played in keeping countries conservative.
I've seen them claim that LGBT MLs are as misguided as jewish white supremacists, saying that oppression of gays is an inevitable result of "authoritatianism".
To be honest, I don't think people generally respect this kind of "argument from representation and support within community" you are going for. Like 80% of anprims/anticivs on twitter are trans for some reason yet other anarchists have no qualms about calling them forest TERFs.
Regarding LGBT issues, I've seen a few point on CPGB-ML which is pretty bad on trans stuff especially, and then use it as an evidence that MLs in general are like that.
Isn't calling them "raddle anarlibs" also sectarian? Just asking.
The anarchist wreckers and the tankie wreckers are sharing the same hate for this community. I think that means we've done our job right.
Literally what TCOTs say when people get mad after they make the stupidest possible posts
So you're saying we should be more like the most annoying assholes on the internet? Very cool
Jesus Christ are you nerds ever going to stop posting dumb shit you disagree with? Who fucking cares
Castro:
Fidel Castro apologized this week for his regime’s treatment of gays in Cuba. “If someone is responsible, it’s me,” Castro told journalist Carmen Lida Saade about his country’s campaign to “re-educate” the country’s gay population in the 1960s. Well into the 1980s, gays in Cuba were sent off to labor camps and thought to be counter revolutionary “agents of imperialism.”
“Yes, there were moments of great injustice — great injustice,” Castro acknowledged about the 1960s. And then, by way of a justification for the policies, he said that he was also dealing with death threats and the turmoil of the revolution at the time: “We had so many terrible problems, problems of life or death, you know, you do not pay enough attention.”
When pressed though, Castro relented, and reminded the reporter that he had many close gay friends. “I am trying to narrow my responsibility in all of this, because of course personally I have no such prejudice,” he said.
Note how this comment is infinitely more informative than "yeah they're just homophobic."
Ziq is so obsessed with sectarian catfighting I'm convinced they're a cop.
They probably aren't. They just failed to really examine the effects hierarchy has on people.
Which genuinely isn't a dig on them being an anarchist admin. I've thought a lot about hierarchy on internet websites and how the vast majority of software tends to force a hierarchy, and the best a lot of communities can do is just be aware of those differences in power and rely on freedom of association to permit people to leave a site if the admin is abusive.
But because most social media has a monopoly on the content of a community, the population of a given community is just directly tied to whether it survives, so in practice you really can't just go make your own community and if you get banned from one you like you're fucked.
Federation is super interesting as an anarchist because it changes the relationship between moderators, users, and communities. Moderators and admins are naturally held accountable by their users and by the mods and admins of other communities; if they allow their users to say horrible things and be abusive, other communities will stop federating with them and they'll be isolated like Gab is on Mastodon, only able to see a few pockets of other instances that are also toxic hellholes. But if they're unfair to their users, their users can easily switch to another instance and keep talking to all their friends largely uninterrupted, because the mods don't have a monopoly on access to the community. And this has resulted, several times, in shitty mods being held accountable by the fediverse, getting instance blocked while their users flee to other instances.
It doesn't require liberal elections where there's winners and losers and you have to put up with taht asshole admin who has it out for you because they posted funny memes until they won. You, the user, get to choose who your admins and mods are, choosing the people whose policy will grant you access to the kinds of communities you want while protecting you from abusive people no matter what instance they post on. You can't be an asshole, because you'll find yourself limited to only instances that permit assholes, but you don't have to tolerate being mistreated by admins either.
Which again comes back to ziq. There's absolutely no way raddle would become popular even if it federated. Nobody would want to put up with ziq when they could post to more or less the same communities as raddle users without having to also put up with ziq.
They probably aren’t. They just failed to really examine the effects hierarchy has on people.
They've written a bunch of their own theory and/or distillations of theory, so I find that difficult to believe. They've obviously spent a lot of time working with these ideas, which is consistent with either:
- Being a bad-faith actor purposefully trying to undermine the growth of the space, or
- Earnestly studying the materials a ton, and -- despite their personal study and voluminous discussion with like-minded people -- still arriving at bad, counterproductive conclusions.
In short, they're either a cop, or their actions are so harmful they might as well be one.
Federation is super interesting as an anarchist because it changes the relationship between moderators, users, and communities.
I read through your comments on this, and your comments on federation in some other thread, and it sounds super interesting but I'm still not quite grasping how it works. I'm particularly confused about the " users can easily switch to another instance and keep talking to all their friends largely uninterrupted, because the mods don’t have a monopoly on access to the community" part.
So if you get kicked off Gmail because Google doesn't like you drawing nipples in the O's in their logo, you can just sign up with Hotmail and you can continue doing all your email shit. You have to go through the tedious task of updating everything to use your new email address, but Gmail can't stop you from emailing your friends using another service.
For Lemmy, Mastodon, and the Fediverse at large, the same applies. If a moderator is an asshole, you can just literally go to another instance and continue accessing the larger Fediverse no problem, at least so long you're not such an insufferable asshole that other instances just ban you too or pre-emptively block your email address and IP.
This very heavily changes the relationship between moderators and users, especially compared to corporate social media walled gardens like Twitter. No admin or moderator actually has control over you, no one can actually prevent you from access the Fediverse at large by banning you, nobody "owns" the Fediverse so nobody can threaten to take away your access. They can boot you off their instance, and if you're a massive asshole you'll find yourself in the same sitaution Gab is in where everyone just has you blocked, but if it's just that one admin being a jerk or being abusive then you don't have to tolerate it. They aren't the admin of, say, Reddit or Twitter, where if you get banned you get cut off from everything and everyone. You have to be toxic enough that everyone whose opinions you care about all agree you're a liability before you find yourself isolated.
And because of this, moderators and admins actually do need to behave themselves, their power isn't absolute and they can't coerce users using that monopoly on the content of the community. On Matodon, for example, some moderators on an instance started doing some Nazi apologia under the guise of "free speech." It was a relatively well-populated instance, but their users fled to other instances (Mastodon lets you export your profile to easiliy import it into a new instance for just such an occassion) and the admins of other instances started blocking their instance. Now they only really federate with other "free speech" instances. They were unable to force their users to stay, nobody worried that htey couldn't talk to the same friend they always had if they went to a new instance, and they couldn't threaten to ban people who spoke out because they'd just pop up on another instance and no other instance thought what they were doing was cool (at least none that we in the lefty sphere give a fuck about, I'm sure Gab thought they were neat).
It makes being an admin less of a position of power and more what it really should be, curating the internet for other people to make it less toxic and abusive.
They aren’t the admin of, say, Reddit or Twitter, where if you get banned you get cut off from everything and everyone. You have to be toxic enough that everyone whose opinions you care about all agree you’re a liability before you find yourself isolated.
I think I get this. To make a rough analogy to reddit:
- If reddit admins ban CTH and all its derivatives, you can't establish a CTH anywhere else on reddit, meaning you can't have your CTH content and reddit content still accessible from the same website.
- In the Fediverse, there's no admin to ban your community, but other instances can stop associating with you/ban you/block you. So if your community sucks enough it'll be isolated from the broader Fediverse content, but it takes a lot more widespread agreement that your community sucks for that to happen; i.e., a small group of admins can't fuck you over. It's like if you removed the admins from reddit and let individual subs decide to associate with each other or not.
Is that at least kind of right?
Yep. And the fundamental change that brings is that admins and mods stop being hte "bosses" of communities and act more as curators for the Fediverse at large, maintaining a custom blocklist to suit hte tastes of their users, while simultaneously using their own reputation as a good judge of character to vouch for their users to other admins doing the same thing. No one has to put up with Spez because you just have to if you want to talk on Reddit, you just have to be good to people in the ways that they feel matter in order to reach them. We can just choose to not care about the instances in the Fediverse that take offense to us glorifying John Brown, but can still be held accountable by those whose opinions we actually value. We can glorify John Brown all we want and not care who blocks us for it, but we do care if someone blocks us because we start becoming too tolerant of, say, ableist slurs.
Thanks for taking the time to explain. Sounds like it has a ton of potential.
God raddle sucks
Or to be more accurate, ziq sucks. But raddle is basically just ziq and the very few people ziq failed to bully off the site for not perfectly aligning themselves with every opinion ziq holds
I kind of find it hilarious how many chapo sects have been established.
And here I thought we were libs. Turns out we were all socialists all along.
AS AN ANARCHIST
So Raddle, as far as I know, is not federated. Lemmy is going to be federated. On a technical level alone, just about any proper anarchist should be super stoked about the Lemmy project, even if the main dev instance is a bit controlling of their anarchist users and generally isn't a super healthy space for anarchists to hang out. The prospect of decentralizing social media is anarchist as fuck and it provides real protections for anarchists against that one clique that keeps trying to expunge anarchists from every lefty space - moderators and admins no longer hold a monopoly on access to an entire community.
But for Raddle in particular, Ziq has a particular history with deliberately stirring shit with alts there to make things interesting, which has lead other anarchist spaces to kind of distance themselves from it. You'll still see posts linked there sometimes because ATM raddle is a place where you can post edgier stuff without a social media company giving you shit for it, but like you can get a lot of shit for just identifying as an ancom on Raddle which makes it not a particularly safe place to post if you don't know whose ass to be kissing. It's just fucking abusive.
That said, this is Chapo. We're inheriting a significantly larger userbase, while Raddle was only ever known by a few niche subs and was only ever going to be an anarchist-only space. Even though we're not federated yet, we have enough activity to be entertaining and so hold our numbers. It's the same reason we're smaller than whatever that donald site is, we were always a smaller sub. The hope with federation is that we can have more niche communities without them dying off because of the network effect.
They're just mad that we'll probably surpass their user base by the end of the week