I don’t wanna. Debates are pointless and they’re not smart enough to process anything I say, so I just say “yeah that sucks” and try and change topics.
Got my friends to agree that this war is awful and was entirely preventable.
But they still think that civilians taking up arms against a trained military is based and heroic and not just suicidal, and told me that they would absolutely join up with Nazis to fight for America if it was invaded.
They call themselves anarchists.
They call themselves anarchists.
It's funny you say that, it is what happened with Ukrainian anarchists too.
Very worthwhile read.
this is a really cool read, thank you for sharing
Welcome! Very important that movements think about this kind of things and consider how to avoid it in future. There must be a way to minimise this kind of thing.
One thing they could've made clearer though is that during Maidan and later the right, the Nazis and parts of the center used physical violence to cut down any larger organized anarchist form. Which means anarchist groups had to fear more and more violence. If you try to fight at some place having multiple enemies which are better equipped and have larger groups is quite dangerous.
So material takes on why the stuff developed like this ought to be kept in mind.
Exactly. I'm a part of two Discord servers for trans people, and both are full to the brim of everyone making pro-Ukraine statements and acting as if Putin is the reincarnation of Hitler, and I tried to talk to a few of them that I follow on Twitter about it, but it just ended up with me being seen as some cruel, heartless, authoritarian bootlicking genocidal jerk for not immediately going "I stand with Ukraine!" So, at this point, I pretty much don't talk to anyone about anything anymore. It's not worth it. Everyone has soaked in all the propaganda and are endlessly repeating it without thought.
Oh, I know, but, it sounds like you're saying you support Ukraine without actually doing so. The people I know wouldn't notice.
If you are against the invasion of Iraq you hate the troops AND support Muslim terrorists!
I just find myself seeing all the old hits being brought back out.
Seriously, this shit is like bell bottom pants, every few decades they make a come back...
It's worth it. Human lives are at stake. The more blind support for Ukraine/NATO can only lead to further bloodletting. Your personal comfort is absolutely nothing in comparison. You're a leftist, it's literally your job to fight this stuff.
Another way to frame this is that the effect of just one dissenting voice does a lot to counteract groupthink.
if their reality is constructed by mass media nothing they hear matters unless a talking head on TV says it with fancy CGI graphics alongside
My favourite is when they go out of their way to find other media because they don't trust corporate media but they don't have the critical thinking or media literacy skills to find better media and just end up getting state department propaganda laundered through some youtuber they found. Then they moan about how they don't watch corporate media when you point out they're parroting what the mainstream media says :data-laughing:
I like when they discard ALL science regardless of whether it bolsters corporate interests
Same thing happened to me yesterday. I just had to end it with, dude I don't want to talk about it.
And then had to reaffirm that, no, I don't support Russian imperialism. I just don't want to support literal Nazis either.
Explain the entire background of it and say that there is no good guy here but from where we stand 'supporting' Ukraine only brings us a step closer to nuclear conflagration
I just tell them it's bad and if keeps going it could become as bad as the Iraq War.
Nah they'll just counter that it will definitely be worse because Putin is a DICTATOR!!!!! Iraq was just an oopsie by a democracy, Putin is literally gonna kill every hot Ukrainian woman and then eat them.
Libs are a bit more clever than people here give them credit for, they always have a good counter. It's one you can't really pick apart because it relies on a lot of predictive thinking, they always think they know whats going to happen for sure, even if prior evidence suggests otherwise. They know if they just stick to this script you can't really beat them so they just keep at it.
Libs are a bit more clever than people here give them credit for, they always have a good counter.
Nah, they talk in circles and words have no meaning. Don't debate. And never debate libs, only bully.
Talking in circles and acting like words have no meaning is HOW they’re clever.
That's not being clever. Don't let them do it. Force them back to the core point. Make them answer your actual question, don't let them get away with obfuscation cause it's a bullshit tactic.
It’s clever cuz if you stick to it long enough people give up and you feel like the winner. It’s why fash have such an easy time unlike us lefties, they can hack the human mind by just being pigheaded ass fucks. Brilliant, wish there was a left version of it.
This is why you bully. If you have a vocabulary greater than a sixth grader and a functional understanding of 20th century history you can dunk on them and half the time they don't even understand you're making fun of them lol
Yeah, have you been in school and seen a chud get owned by the teacher ever? Cause it turns out the teacher knew more about what they were teaching than the student who decided to argue? Be that teacher.
My favourite lib dunk is from Lenin and it's just as true today: "Mr. Tugan repeats the old trick of the reactionaries: first to misinterpret socialism by making it out to be an absurdity, and then to triumphantly refute the absurdity!"
Basically just calling them dumb lmao
I do get OP's frustrations, I've been there. It takes time and effort but once your there it fucking rules. A lib can say pretty much anything and I can say "that's wrong and here are 15 reasons why"
A lib won’t believe the 15 reasons, will ask for sources from “trusted news organizations”, and say you sound like Trump.
If provided mainstream sources, they will not read it and instead provide you with editorials from CIA and Natsec ghouls.
You just gave three examples of some very blatantly stupid and easy to counter arguments. That's not libs being clever. If you're being outmaneuvered by libs spouting this kind of blunt and demonstrable falsehood then you may just need to put some points into rhetoric.
They can always put maneuver you because they don’t believe in anything. There’s really not light you can shine in their eyes that will help them. They’re in that sweet spot where they’re just dumb enough to not see reality but just smart enough to build sturdy walls against it.
That's where you change the onus. You have expressed opinions that they wanna tear down, if they do so, ask what they think should be done and interrogate the shit out of their answers. If it's some non commital lib crap tell them sitting on a fence just leaves you with splinters up your ass. The walls are strong, but like the attempted border wall has giant giant fucking holes. It's an attrition thing at that point. What comes in there is having really good recall for history and theory, blasting people with well sourced info works crazy well verbally cause they don't have unlimited time to Google every sentence you make and pretend they have a gotcha, they gotta work in the moment.
Encouraging Libs to action is just encouraging them to do lib action. Honestly bullying them into being fence sitters is the best you can do, otherwise they’ll want to nuke Tehran in the name of trans rights. The only progress I ever made with Libs in being anti-imperialist was in convincing them that their well meaning actions just fuck things up, getting them to be passive was a victory. You can’t pill them on actual communism because they’re scared of spooky “authoritarian” leaders coming to take their treats away.
That's fine. Nothing means not vocally supporting the Ukraine and manufacturing consent for NATO involvement. Neutrality on this war is totally acceptable but carrying water specifical in defense of Ukraine and painting Russians as monsters is not only wrong but dangerous. We are trying to stop a fucking war here.
I don't debate, just tell people stuff that the US has done or is letting happen and point out they don't hear it on the news or from the political personalities they listen to.
There's a war going on in Yemen right now, being fought with US weapons, with US contractors repairing and refueling American-made jets and other equipment.
At least 100 children are dying in Yemen a day, due to the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and a famine that didn't need to happen. The US could put an end to that war if they wanted, that's what I tell libs and chuds (they're the same and this has been proven lately).
Tell them the ending is going to be more disappointing than Game of Thrones.
Mine don't take any opinions on stuff like this until I talk about it. They get that knowing this shit is like, my main thing. They're libs but they don't open their mouths about shit they don't know about
Lol, dude I’ve totally given up talking about politics to anyone who I don’t already know is a commie. I just try and pretend I’m an apolitical nihilist around people and joke that I don’t watch the news cuz “We’re all gonna die anyway”. I honestly don’t think there’s much you can do for people these days, the west has propaganda down to a T, it’s fucking science, once someone has been brewing in that more more than 25 years they’re a lost cause.
I mean more power too you but I'm over it. It's too stressful, only produces even minor positive results like 1 out of 10 times, results that are easily reversed by another propaganda bomb, and it also always comes with the risk some person in your social circle is going to "out" you as a tankie, which with everything going on just feels more and more dangerous. I've pretty much given up on the US, there's never going to be a left here in any meaningful degree, I'm just going to vibe until material conditions degrade enough and then bunker down with my 12 gauge and hope :xibe-check: comes to save us. If not, I've honestly almost gotten to the point of being :xi-plz: unironically.
Oh I'm great. It brings me great relief to just accept most people I know are fucking kulak filth who will probably have to be ended for society to progress. I'm fine with it, I enjoy their company still, we drink, we eat, we hang out, but at the end of the day I've accepted they'd all join MAGA SS when it comes down to it and that's it. It makes moments when they're being utter ignorant fools more tolerable because I just image the ending of Come and See with them getting killed by the partisans and it makes me smile a little, they'll get what they deserve. I'm stuck with these fuckers but only for so long, I'll have my fun and then happily be lost to history, the solace of being on the right side of it will be enough for me as I drift into that cool dark.
This is the social life you're hiding your power level to maintain? Just be a tankie. If they'd betray to your own death when push comes to shove, that's not shit you need to take. There is little solace in being correct while you're bleeding to death, being correct in thought isn't materialism. I dunno, I don't socialize with libs outside of work or whatever and those ones I push back aggressively and thoroughly
I’m gonna bleed out either way. This is my social life, there ain’t any communes to run off to that I know of. Also not gonna lie, being around other communists doesn’t exactly make me happy either, and there’s hardly any of them around anyway. My dumbass Libs friends find me amusing cuz I know a lot of history trivia and have cool takes on media, so they buy me shots and wing man me at the bar so I get laid every once in a while. There’s no hope for Revolution in the core so this is the best life a communist can hope for around these parts. I’ll have a snicker on my face when the Chinese Red Guard line us up in front of the mass grave cuz I’ll know I called it.
0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin. All he has managed to do is make himself sad He is starting to suspect Kras Mazov fucked him over personally with his socio-economic theory. It has, however, made him into a very, very smart boy with something like a university degree in Truth. Instead of building Communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.
Nevertheless, this is an very self destructive cop's inner thoughts as he accepts communism as his jam. The cynicism and irony is part of the point. This isn't Martinaise, we live in the real world.
I mean I’m basically Harry DuBois so this shit fits me. Wish I had a cute Seolite sidekick tho.
Yeah I get what you mean. Communism feels much more like an intellectual exercise than anything else.
omg this is just like 1984 animal farm orwell freedom property rights!
How 'bout ukraine your neck around the patio and tell me if those burgers are seared yet. :grillman:
