we are going to have a lovely discussion about this video >:3
I stopped watching at 28:38 when she frames Jimmy Dore as a crank for believing that the Syrian gas attacks were false flags.
I mean, Jimmy Dore is a crank on vaccines, horse paste, and probably several other things, but he's right about the OPCW leaks.
Edit: Decided to continue watching anyway (even though I disagree) because her video is thought provoking.
Edit2: I got to her full explanation of the events [43:05] and it's much worse than I expected. Her argument is "AKSHYUALLY the gas attacks weren't PROVEN to be false flags, they were just proven to not have taken place in the way we were first told, and Jimmy Dore is a crank for believing that indicates it's a false flag because he's just emotionally motivated by his anti-imperialist views".
Okay, but I'd argue that the false flag explanation is the next most coherent one since the official story has been debunked, and that you're emotionally motivated by your disdain for anti-imperialists and "dictators who commit horrific crimes".
Then she thinks she's making a big-brained point when she says that the media could be telling the truth about the gas attacks while still be guilty of cynically exploiting them for their purposes.
Jimmy Dore is a crank on vaccines, horse paste, and probably several other things
that boomer pig is also a rogan-tier transphobe, which makes him eligible for the "advanced" section of the re-education camp ("gulag +").
No, it was canisters of chlorine which were supposedly dropped from Assad's aircraft but were actually placed by ground forces of some kind.
Straight up, the Syria point was why I wanted to post it here. Having milquetoast Ukraine takes is fine, but this was something that made me raise my eyebrows
Hearing communists criticize Chomsky for the first time made me go into defensive mode like this as well. Glad I didn't have a giant platform or I would have made cringe like this too.
That last paragraph is understanding I've came to myself and have repeated to people for a while.
All in all I don't care that people out there think that the World Trade Centre was underground nuked or they were holograms because the far scarier reality is one where everyone believes the story the government wanted you to believe.
Is it unwise to dismiss the more outlandish ones that seem to have no aim or thesis? Not really.
Is it also unwise to suggest that it's impossible that the United States would be willing to kill thousands of its own citizens to serve its purposes? Absolutely.
Clearly for Jimmy Dore, once a news outlet has been caught lying they can never be trustworthy again, which certainly has a lot of populist appeal as an idea [31:31]
....but... isn't that accurate tho?? :cat-confused:
If there’s zero attempt at accountability, then yes.
There was more navel-gazey introspection over how they were suckered into covering Trump in 2015 than over how they ‘accidentally’ enabled a full on war.
did any major news outlets ever widely run apologies and promises to better vet sources after falsely claiming, twice in the span of a few months, that a world leader (:kim:) was dead?
Yeah but what if they pinkie promised to never do it again?
She has a chapter on the war where she goes pretty hard on supporting Ukraine.
[1:54:08] Peter has also been quick to seize on opportunities to claim false flag attacks within the warzones, claiming that a theater in Mariupol---a city indisputably shelled by Russian military forces---was supposedly blown up by Ukrainian Neo-Nazis instead, to make Putin look worse---or something.
Guess what, Sophie, the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis also indisputably have artillery shells! So how can you so smugly dismiss the claim that it was a false flag when we have no hard evidence either way? Fuck you.
Then she rightfully shits on the nazbol asshole Caleb Maupin, but for sometimes for the wrong reasons. She says Caleb's plea to "do not donate to Ukraine" is "unhinged". Fuck you, Sophie! I'm not giving any of my money to those fascist NATO puppets so they can prolong the war and get more people killed; Caleb is absolutely right on that point. Joe Brandon just gave them 4 billion dollars.
Then she calls the Ukrainian biolabs "totally innocuous" and dismisses any possibility that they housed dangerous pathogens as Russian propaganda.
:LIB:
really wish these youtube creators would stop making these exhausting 2+ hour videos. Not because the length is bad (I think Folding Idea's NFT video was really well done) but because of how they usually turn out.
If you're making a video about conspiracy theories, you probably don't need to talk about how much of a dingdong Caleb Maupin is for 45+ minutes. That's just padding runtime.
I promise you don't need to have costumed side-characters to create some kind of aesthetic metaphor that confuses what you're trying to say in the video. Everyone wants to do this Contrapoints/Jacob Geller thing where you kinda have two ideas dance around each other in some kind of vague dialogue, but its just confusing and muddies whatever point you were trying to make in the first place.
Third, it makes it so that people won't watch, will assume what the content of the video is, and respond to the made-up video they just imagined in their heads. That's what 90% of this thread is. And that's as much sophie's fault as it is yours, dear reader.
people won’t watch, will assume what the content of the video is, and respond to the made-up video they just imagined in their heads. That’s what 90% of this thread is.
:I-was-saying: I watched the video.
You hate-watched the video, and rather than engaging with any of the arguments presented in the video, you got red, mad and nude at the examples she uses to illustrate her point. Ironically, I think you've really supported her claim that most conspiracy theories are not arrived at with factual knowledge, but with emotional truth. From what you've posted, it seems like if the main narrative of something has been proven false, you've lept to a single conclusion based on insufficient information either way. and none of this is even to say that you're wrong about any given point but rather you're mad because the truth you've arrived at is personal and emotional because it supports a story you agree with, and when you uncharitably took this video as some attack on your positions, it really illustrated that
Sorry, that was unnecessarily combative. Look, when I think about the conspiracies I believe in, I realize there are huge gaps in knowledge in order to reach the conclusion I've come to, but I believe it because A) not falsified by available information but more importantly B) supports a story that I believe. gladio and 9/11 all have an emotional truth to me, but as long as I'm honest with myself about it, I can keep myself grounded.
To my point of 2+hour videos though: they're bad. Its hard to see what argument Sophie is even advancing through much of the video since there is so much weaving around and setting up examples.
I'd just like to add that I started the video with an open mind and actually enjoyed the parts which were about the academic theory of conspiracies. I didn't contest any of those arguments because I actually agreed with her; I only posted about the stuff that triggered me. As I said in one post, after I ragequit the video, I picked it up again ten minutes later because I found it thought provoking, and I was curious to see what she had to say in full about the gas attacks that would falsify my beliefs. She's correct that there is not absolute proof one way or the other, but I found it to be a little bit pedantic because IMO there are only two explanations that are likely to be true in this case: either Assad did it, or the other side (the US) did it/faked it. If the former possibility has been falsified, which I believe it has, then it's not irrational to jump to the latter possibility. Is it proof? No, because bigfoot could have dropped them too, or maybe the residents of Duma thought it would be funny to gas themselves, or maybe the canisters could have been holograms all along, etc. We still haven't falsified those possibilities or any thousand of other possibilities, but like I said that seems rather pedantic to me. It seemed to me that she was using these academic theories to support her own emotional distrust of anti-imperialists. That's why I got mad. 100% proof of anything is pretty rare. As long as one maintains an open mind with regards to the possibility of new evidence arising, I don't think it's wrong to move forward with the most likely possibility.
Sure, I don't disagree with you on any of this, and obviously you don't need to watch or comment according to what I think would be a productive conversation. However the video wasn't about whether or not the gas attacks were true. the argument she was making was that Dore was using the one time he was right (maybe) as a cudgel against everyone he disagrees in order to isolate him as the sole purveyor of truth in all media. I just think it's more worthwhile to engage in the arguments the video is trying to make. the video wasn't about the veracity of gas attack facts, so i just let it slide ya know? but who am I to say what is the correct way to watch and comment on a video i guess. and yeah, her calling all these cranks and weirdos "anti-imperialists" really left a bad taste in my mouth too
IMO Sophie arguably committed the same sin when she dismissed the conspiracy theory of the Mauripol theater shelling despite there being practically no evidence either way.
All mammals are guided by emotions; there is no such thing as a person guided purely by reason. The human's neocortex is built on top of, and serves at the pleasure of, the limbic (emotional) system. As David Hume said, " reason serves the passions (emotions)".
Not watching. Too long. Gonna guess it's two hours of this meme.
I clicked through and it seems like its 2 hours+ to say that people like Peter Coffin/Jimmy Dore/Caleb Maupin are stupid grifters. The rest of it is just general stuff about how conspiracy theories can come about and how it indoctrinates people.
It's a little of both of what you're saying. I'm about halfway through the video.
I legit don't understand the point she's trying to make at 16:22---16:48.
Edit: She's probably just an anti-truther. Makes sense now. :bern-disgust:
However, King's family have been saying that James Earl Ray was framed and that the FBI killed King since literally the day he died [34:48]
She makes it sound like this weakens the credibility of the their claim, but I disagree (she says she personally believes they're correct nevertheless).
Since everyone's feeling brave about conspiracy theories and not dismissing them out of hand for smug lib reasons, I'm going to bring up once again that the American government did 9/11, and it's nearly as cartoonishly obvious as the assassination of JFK when you actually look into it. Don't be cowards.
I have looked into it: it's not so obvious.
As many holes as you can poke in the official report I've yet to hear a cohesive conspiracy theory that doesn't wind up creating even bigger holes. Like for example: if America did 9/11 why did they make 15 of the 19 hijackers from Saudi Arabia?
Perhaps "facilitated" is the better term. I'm not sure if they outright coordinated with the Saudis, but they did literally everything imaginable to clear the path for them.
That is a bit more in the realm of possibility.
I'll concede it's not outlandish to think there was a general stand down to jump start a war. That becomes more plausible if you realize that they probably didn't realize the actual targets or how effective the attacks would be.
Still Hanlon's razor and the shock doctrine apply...so I still don't buy into that one.
So when you say that you've looked into the subject, what exactly have you consumed?
And I'm sorry, but Hanlon's Razor is some lib bullshit that will have you believing in the Ever-Stumbling Empire that constantly achieved all its goals on accident.
Hanlon's razor reduces a spectrum ranging from "stupidity" to :grillman: to malice into a binary, and forgives every action shy of a cackling supervillain pushing the "dunk people in vat of acid" button as "stupidity" but to do the opposite of that would be as much of a distortion of reality.
I've watched and read countless videos and posts for years on the subject and listened to subsequent counter arguments. Most of it pre YouTube. I was around for the early 00s internet days where these debates we're at their peak.
I would challenge your characterization on two grounds:
- That seems to inevitably lead to a mindset that everything that happens is by conscious rational choice...which I would argue itself is in fact the actual liberal mindset.
- unlike some other examples you can point to: I think the suggestion that America achieved all it's policy goals post 9/11 is a helluvah stretch. I grant you certain people made a shit load of money....but it's also becoming pretty clear how much it sped up the decline of the empire.
-
It's funny how most of the most important domestic incidents in the last century of American history have been perpetrated by Lone Nuts, and almost all of them advanced the interests of the security state. What a wild series of coincidences.
-
In what material ways has it sped up the decline of the American Empire? As far as I can tell, opposition has quite possibly never been weaker, possibly excepting the immediate aftermath of the domestic assassination campaigns of the 60s and 70s.
-Depends on how you want to define "lone nut". I don't think anyone is a "lone nut" in the purest sense, in the same way no body is a truly isolated invidual. This gets messy when you start talking things like jfk where Oswald pretty clearly had some kind of ties to intelligence.
In the case at hand hough: if you want to say America did 9/11 in that they created the material conditions that directly led to the attacks, preach it. If you mean: they planted bombs and thermite and hired crisis actors, this ain't it chief.
-....we're watching the collapse of the unipolar world right now?
-
I’ve watched and read countless videos and posts for years on the subject
If you have any interest in continuing to challenge your beliefs, I've found these resources to be the most persuasive:
Reading
Covert Action Magazine's articles by Professor Peter Dale Scott and two frequent TrueAnon guests:
Videos
Excerpts:
One of the major facts that convinced me that 9/11 was an intelligence op is the presence of the NORAD drills (documented by Michael C. Ruppert). The drills were about intercepting hijacked airplanes that were being piloted into skyscrapers, and they were moved to the date of 9/11 from their original schedule. The confusion created by the drills that morning made the attacks possible, and only very senior national security officials would have had the authority to schedule those drills (definitely not Osama bin Laden). To believe that they were coincidentally scheduled by accident or incompetence is outlandish IMO.
Edit: A video source
Absolutely give me sources but just based on a google search this seems like a massive reach and conflation of separate events.
From what I can find there were no norad drills involving hijacked planes crashing into buildings. There was an exercise involving a hypothetical Soviet bomber, but the surface accounts I see are that it's impact to the response was fairly minimal and may have actually increased response time since all staff were at the ready and in place when a real world shift and adjustment became necessary.
It seems like this is getting conflated with a separate much smaller simulated exercise for the national reconnaissance office involving a hijacked plane crashing into one of their buildings and impacting satellite communications.
Again hit me with sources but unless all that's wrong your characterization sounds pretty misleading.
I've uploaded the relevant book chapter for you. There is far more than I can include in a single comment. I encourage you to read the whole 24 page long chapter.
As it turns out, on September 11th, various agencies including NORAD, the FAA, the Canadian Air Force, the National Reconnaissance Office, and possibly the Pentagon were conducting as many as five wargame drills — in some cases involving hijacked airliners; in some cases also involving blips deliberately inserted onto FAA and military radar screens which were present during (at least) the first attacks; and which in some cases had pulled significant fighter resources away from the northeast US on September 11. In addition, a close reading of key news stories published in the spring of 2004 revealed for the first time that some of these drills were “live-fly” exercises where actual aircraft were simulating the behavior of hijacked airliners in real life; all of this as the real attacks began. The fact that these exercises had never been systematically and thoroughly explored in the mainstream press, or publicly by Congress, or at least publicly in any detail by the so-called Independent 9/11 Commission made me think that they might be the Grail.
That’s exactly what they turned out to be.
but the surface accounts I see are that it’s impact to the response was fairly minimal and may have actually increased response time since all staff were at the ready and in place when a real world shift and adjustment became necessary.
This is an outright lie by national security officials to cover their asses. It had the exact opposite effect.
From the book:
Aviation Week reported, “Senior officers involved in Vigilant Guardian were manning NORAD command centers throughout the US and Canada, available to make immediate decisions.”8 This confirmed the geographic scope of the exercise. Vigilant Guardian was played up in the press as though it had facilitated a quick- er response. It did anything but that.
That Vigilant Guardian had a direct impact on the Northeast Air Defense Sector in which all four hijackings occurred was confirmed in a December 2003 original story by NJ.com, a New Jersey-based service also summarizing all major stories published by New Jersey press outlets.
NORAD also has confirmed it was running two mock drills on September 11 at various radar sites and command centers in the United States and Canada, including air force bases in upstate New York, Florida, Washington, and Alaska. One drill, Operation Vigilant Guardian, began a week before September 11 and reflected a cold war mind-set: Participants practiced for an attack across the North Pole by Russian forces.9
The story never named the second drill, and the assertion that it was strictly a cold war-type exercise is belied by direct statements of many of the principals involved that day. The NJ.com story also raised another chilling issue.
Investigators at the September 11 commission confirm they are investigating whether NORAD’s attention was drawn in one direction — toward the North Pole — while the hijackings came from an entirely different direction.10
The National Reconnaissance Office, a joint creation of the CIA and the air force that operates US spy satellites, was also running an exercise on September 11 th. This one happened to involve a plane crashing into the headquarters of the ultra-secret agency in the Washington, DC suburb of Chantilly, Virginia, just outside Dulles International airport, the origin of Flight 77.
An Associated Press story dated September of 2002 was headlined “Agency planned exercise on September 11 built around a plane crashing into a building.”
Vigilant Guardian was a hijacking drill, not a cold war exercise
There were a number of direct quotes from participants in Vigilant Guardian indicating that the drill involved hijacked airliners rather than Russian bombers.
General Arnold had been quoted by ABC news as saying, “The first thing that went through my mind [after receiving the hijacking alert for Flight 11] was, is this part of the exercise? Is this some kind of a screw-up?”
Northern Vigilance pulled fighter aircraft away from NEADS and CONUS
I found two confirmations of this and a little more information about how extensive the deployment had been. The first, indirect and incomplete, was from NJ.com.
NORAD confirmed it had only eight fighters on the East Coast for emergency scrambles on September 11. Throughout Canada and the United States, including Alaska, NORAD had 20 fighters on alert — armed, fueled up, and ready to fly in minutes.20
A more specific confirmation had already come from NORAD itself from the Northern Vigilance website.
The North American Aerospace Defense Command shall deploy fighter aircraft as necessary to Forward Operating Locations (FOLS) in Alaska and Northern Canada to monitor a Russian air force exercise in the Russian arctic and North Pacific Ocean.21
The pieces were falling together rapidly. I remembered a story that the National Security Agency (NSA) had intercepted a message on September 10th between two al Qaeda members. CNN reported:
A message intercepted by US intelligence officials September 10 declared “The match begins tomorrow,” and another declared “Tomorrow is zero hour” — but the messages were not translated until one day after the devastating terrorist attacks.22
That conversation was between Khalid Shaikh Muhammad, the so-called mas- termind of 9/11, and Mohammed Atta, the reported lead hijacker.23 Could “match” have referred to a wargame? Honegger had suggested this in 2002. The new wargame information now made that conclusion much more attractive.
It certainly appeared that someone in authority had deliberately interfered with FAA/NORAD operations on September 11th to make sure that some of the attacks succeeded. Richard Clarke’s book, previously edited by the White House, had FAA administrator Garvey referring to as many as 11 off-course/out-of-contact aircraft. Was she saying that she couldn’t tell the wargame inserts from the real thing?
It would take only a day or two more to find damning evidence that this is probably what she meant. The fact that the CIA had been running a plane-into- building exercise simultaneously with all the military exercises made me very suspicious. The first question that leapt at me was, with all these related exercises running at the same time, who or what was coordinating them? Someone at DoD had to have a regular job of knowing all the exercises being carried out everywhere to avoid SNAFUs. That question and others would require interviews.
The source is Michael C. Ruppert. Specifically from his book Crossing the Rubicon. I'll find the exact passage for you.
Know of any grounded articles or videos that cover this well? By grounded I mean not wild Alex Jones-like stories of remote control planes and explosives planted by in the towers. I’ve always been suspicious of it and especially the Saudi role, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of evidence for some of these claims that certain 9-11 truthers have put forward.
I think this reaches some conclusions I don't agree with, but it's extremely thorough, detailed, and great for laying out the events of the day and getting you to question what happened.
if America did 9/11 why did they make 15 of the 19 hijackers from Saudi Arabia?
IMHO because it was primarily an Israeli driven op that was parlayed into pro-war propaganda by Bush. The Israelis were not interested in framing Iraq or Afghanistan specifically, but rather Muslims broadly, therefore they used memebers of Saudi intelligence with whom they already had a good working relationship. The CIA, Mossad, ISI, and GID have worked together since the 70s (the Safari Club).
At the very least the feds and the Carlyle Group knew about it before hand, the feds let it happen and members of the Carlyle Group used that advanced knowledge to do insider trading and make even more money than they already had.
This video is really funny in comparison to recent events with the New York Times admitting that the Hunter Biden's Laptop was indeed authentic. I think the conservative narrative is probably bogus but the media went on an outright blitz trying to censor the story and denying it ever existed. It was obvious they feared of a second Trump victory and a repetition of the FBI reopening the Hillary Clinton probe. Now people are just saying that it wasnt 'properly vetted' and therefore could not be reported.
Didn't they literally ban you from Twitter if you posted anything from it?
That was the moment I thought there was at least something to it.
Yeah, not taking this bait. Her argumentation style makes me crazy. I've stopped watching a bunch of Thoughtslime's stuff because of her. I love my anarchist comrades, but there is a specific, irritating subset of anarchists who cannot examine their own priors. Of course, the same could be said for communists (See Caleb Maupin, whose sole redeeming trait is a higher-than-average chance to come up with good names for terrible things), so it isn't anarchist-specific or anything.
I don't think she's ever claimed to be an anarchist. If anything she cites marxist thinkers more often.
i ain't watching all that. happy for you tho. or sorry that happened