I know some Ukrainian folks who consider themselves “left leaning” (they’re liberals obviously but they don’t really understand what that means) . The situation in Ukraine has triggered a lot of “Russia has always hated Ukrainians, there was forced starvation!” Kind of talk.
I get it, because most of these people are second generation and know history from their parents’ perspectives. I understand where the sense of nationalism is coming from. Regardless of the truth it’s a pretty dark thing to talk about andI don’t want to come across as saying “Ackshyuallyyyyy”
I feel like saying something along the lines of “the prevailing academic opinions don’t back as historical fact” is a bit insensitive but I wish people were even open minded enough to listen. I guess I’m just wondering if this is a thing anyone else engages with? What do you say if this comes up in conversation? How does it go? Why would a loving god cause such agony?
"It was pretty fucked up how the those
kulakslandlords killed the livestock and burned the grain you guys worked so hard to grow, lucky that Stalin was there to send food supplies. Wish he had acted quicker but that's bureaucracy for you. At least the Soviets managed to industrialize agriculture after that and prevent any more famines from happening, at least ones not caused by the Nazis."Famines happened all the time in that part of the world, and then after industrialization they stopped. pretty weird huh?
Also Fraud, Famine and Fascism does a great job of explaining how the famine happened, but the anti-Stalin part of it was Nazi propaganda propped up by american media moguls.
https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/douglas-tottle/fraud-famine-and-fascism-the-ukrainian-genocide-myth-from-hitler-to-harvard/paperback/product-mzpw94.html?page=1&pageSize=4
https://ia601606.us.archive.org/28/items/DouglasTottleFraudFamineAndFascism/Douglas%20Tottle%20-%20Fraud,%20Famine%20and%20Fascism_text.pdf
Fraud, Famine, and Fascism by Douglas Tottle. This covers the entire history of the Holodomor myth from its invention in the American yellow journalism of the 30s through to the revived cold war of the 80s when this was published
and if reading a PDF is too much for them, you can buy the book here at Lulu. Which also seems to print lots of out of print material.
https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/douglas-tottle/fraud-famine-and-fascism-the-ukrainian-genocide-myth-from-hitler-to-harvard/paperback/product-mzpw94.html?page=1&pageSize=4
diving into my brain for vaguely remembered history here, but wasnt eastern europe a land of frequent famines throughout its feudal period, for hundreds of years before the soviet union, and these famines were only ended by soviet industrialization? someone with sources elaborate or call me a dumdum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines Ukraine shows up there a few times, and IIRC it wasn't uncommon for peasant uprisings to occur due to lack of food in E.Europe.
Re: your title question:
-
Don't.
-
If you do, the very best thing to center is that it was the result of a cross-regional drought and a planning failure (Moscow didn't believe the numbers they were seeing for various reasons, but that assumption made all the difference). The term "holodomor" is used precisely because it sounds so similar to the Holocaust, it makes you think of a genocide, something intentional, something targeted at an ethnicity. The holodomor is none of those things - it's already bad enough as a famine exacerbated by Big Brains in Moscow.
Also in response to this:
I guess I’m just wondering if this is a thing anyone else engages with?
A few times. One was a lost-cause shitlib and the only way they ever respond to anything from the left is by shutting up the moment it's clear the person they're talking to actually knows things. The others were totally chill. But again, I don't bring it up because it's easy to accidentally come across as dismissive so you need to be ready to start with context, not your conclusions.
-
