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  • purplemussolini [none/use name]
    10·
    4 years ago

    Hey ML? tell me about this thing called the Holodomor

    so there's two things going on here; the denial that the holodomor didn't happen - absolute nonsense, anyone shouting this has gone full stalinite and you should ignore them completely

    and the acceptance that the holodomor happened but was not a planned genocide. this can be argued about

    i lean towards no it wasn't. if you're drawing direct parallels to the holocaust this doesn't really work as the holocaust was an industrially planned genocide

    by contrast the 1932-1933 famines in USSR, ukraine & kazakstan were naturally occuring events that were made infinitely worse by stalin's utter clown show(s) re. program of forced collectivisation & unreasonable harvest demands/requisitions, petty nationalism/chauvinism when it came to sending aid and a general unwillingness to actually admit there was a problem that needed fixing

    kazakstan & ukraine were both hit far worse than the USSR, due to the 'priorities' of stalin & his government

    so i see the 1932-1933 famines as disasters that were massively exacerbated by man-made factors, to the point of utter ineptitude, that it became an extremely easy to spin narrative for the nazis and ukrainian fascists; 'look at the communist monsters starving millions of their people!

    you also have to remember that the holocaust was discovered and well documented from right after the end of world war 2. then you add in the nurnberg trials; the evidence and scale of it has been out in the open for decades

    conversely, soviet archives weren't opened up until..1990s? might have even been the 2000s, forget the exact date. so there is a massive difference in time there which shaped perceptions as well

    people simply did not know (clearly) what was happening or had happened in the USSR under stalin (or indeed khrushchev, brezhnev etc). you had the official party line and we all know how reliable that is /s

    so yes, the holodomor happened. this is fact. the only thing worth debating about it is whether stalin and the USSR government deliberately set out to murder millions of ukrainians, soviet citizens & kazaks

    as i said, i lean towards no, because i don't see intentional planning to massacre millions. you can't plan for a famine obviously

    you can plan to mitigate the effects of it as best as possible, and because of that i do see fucking incompetence & rampant chauvinism from stalin & disgusting authoritarianism by the government, that led to millions of deaths with no apology or recognition even now

    however, since you've mentioned genocide; with regards to the kulaks, or the mass deportations of ethnic groups to siberia etc. this is much more straight forward and clear cut i'd say

    those were programs to ethinically cleanse groups in society for not fitting the prefered ideal of stalin/the government, either deliberately or accidentally, should some tragic fate befall them on a long arduous journey etc

    • BASED_BALL [none/use name]
      ·
      4 years ago

      You have been reported.

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