Awesome dig. But, it makes me wonder. Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all? In which way are you not Sisyphus?
How far have you pushed the boulder? I've pushed it sooo far that it's publicly saying it's a little annoyed about the genocide it's perpetrating. That's progress.
The increased aid isn't nothing. It's not enough, but it's something we might not have without people pushing that boulder. It's also just one issue. Overall Biden's administration has been much further left than his history predicted.
You stabbed me once, but the other guy would stab me twice? Wow I gotta vote for the lesser evil. That nothing aid is NOT saving lives as it’s coupled with complete support for Israeli settler-colonialism. It’s not a genuine gesture to help Palestinians, it’s a cynical PR campaign. The way to help Palestinians is to get the US OUT of Palestine.
I wonder if there is a report on how much aid actually makes it to Palestinians. I have seen Israeli settlers blocking trucks, seizing supplies, protected by the IDF.
Are we talking about literally dropping aid onto Palestinians and killing them while also funding an army that's committing a genocide against Palestinians? That's not what I call saving lives.
How would you deliver aid in a way that was guaranteed not to kill anyone? Trucks? Nope, those kill people every day. Push carts? Nope, too slow and people would die of exhaustion. Boats? That takes a dock and we're building one. (And people can die that way too.)
I personally don't think Biden has the ability to force Israel to do anything unless he does it through military force, which I don't support. Russia or China would quickly fill the vacuum if the US just pulled out. Ramping up pressure over time maximizes the US's influence over Israel. I think Biden should have ramped it up a lot faster, but it is the most effective strategy.
The aid truck don't kill people, the IOF who use the aid trucks as bait kill people, genocidal settlers protesting to keep the trucks getting in kills people by starvation
Neither Russia nor China could ever be as evil as even if they actively tried
Here it is, we found it, the molten core of self-delusional liberal fascism
You boneless, bloodless fucks are like those cannibal ghouls in warhammer who live in an Arthurian hallucination and are fully convinced they're noble questing knights
There are huge pro-Palestine protests going on in the states, (and elsewhere) have been since October 7th. He still refuses to budge a fucking inch, funding & arming the genocide whilst USian citizens get in shit for supporting Palestine.
I didn't ask "which boulder". To put it plainly, my question was what different strategy from pushing Biden left has achieved something more, or whether they just prefer to be a bystander and jeer from the sidelines.
Biden is far from perfect, but he has indeed been pushed to the left on many issues. Based on his record it would be fair to predict that he would be right of Obama of Clinton, and he has generally been further left. (Not a high bar to clear.)
Are you a complete asshole? He is literally funding and arming a fucking genocide. Where the fuck do you draw the line if not at genocide?
He has not been pushed left on anything. He canned his student debt relief plans, he's currently in the middle of lettings tons of anti-trans bills pass while pushing a bill that includes a ban on pride flags at embassies and such. He is not dramatically different from any Republican, he still puts kids in cages at the border.
You remind me why I hate liberals so passionately.
He’s NOT perfect okay, nobody is. Sure there’s the genocide and the concentration camps and the border wall and the strike breaking and you know what? Look, we all make mistakes, that’s what makes us human. Like Jesus said, let anyone who is without sin throw the first stone.
You think Palestinians would be better off with Trump?
Oh my god shut the fuck up. Biden is literally arming a genocide against the Palestinians right fucking now. You don't get to pull this "well the other guy would be worse" line when your guy is committing actual war crimes with zero remorse. "Well you see under Trump Israel would slaughter 300 civilians every day compared to the 250 civilians per day being slaughtered under Biden" fuck you.
What line are we drawing? Maybe "don't do a fucking genocide" is a good place to start. Sounds like you support the genocide though. How does that feel to know that you are supporting the senseless slaughter of an entire people? Does that feel like you're doing the right thing? Bet you won't answer though
You are a liberal. Oh, sorry you’re a Bernie-supporting leftist who wants the US to be like Sweden without understanding at all why they aren’t or why Sweden is.
I don't even understand that last sentence. Bernie was the best choice in that race. It's not like Warren was going to usher in a Communist Eutopia.
Here's what you don't get. If you want power you need public support. You can't bypass public opinion and fix the system. That's what Republicans tried to do with Abortion. They went after the power by any means necessary, driving public opinion away from them in the process. They got what they wanted and have been fucked in every election since.
I doubt that your approach will ever achieve anything but, if you do, you wont be able to sustain it. That's exactly why radical communist revolutions have such an abysmal track record.
I'm not pushing on that boulder no. I'm doing lots of actual effective organizing and effort elsewhere though. Stuff that makes real differences to real people. So you keep wasting your effort on voting for genocide and I'll keep cleaning up the mess you make. Hopefully someday you stop wasting your time supporting genocide and instead start spending it doing something that matters
Genocide isn’t on the ballot? Wow, maybe we should violently overthrow whatever “democracy” doesn’t let you vote against genocide. The popular vote amounts to those fake steering wheels in cars for toddlers anyways.
So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end.
The left (including myself) couldn't gather enough support to nominate Bernie, but you think you can put together a cohesive army to overthrow the US by force? And who's to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end
It’s not impossible, and with the US aid coming to an end there would also be the end to support of the Israeli settler regime, support which vastly overpowers this aid.
The left (including myself) couldn't gather enough support to nominate Bernie
LMAO.
And who's to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
No material analysis. The reason you think the left doesn’t have support in the US is due to opportunism and the dual interests of labor in the imperial core. So, if the dust settles and US interference abroad had crumbled, it would certainly be the left in control. Read Lenin’s Imperialism.
Without foreign assistance, Israel can't exist. With America out of the picture, it would just be Russia or China. Either one would like to grow their influence in the region,band Israel has plenty of technology expertise to offer.
Yes, it's impossible. Out of every ten people you recruit for your little revolution, at least one will be a fed. You'll be done before you even start.
The left does have support in the US. A violent leftist revolution doesn't. Right wing militias would be the least of your concerns. The wealthy of the US have their own private armies and intelligence agencies, not to mention the money to buy foreign support and arms. The dollar wouldn't become worthless until you won.
How did Lenin's revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
Except neither Russia nor China would have anything to gain by taking over the colonial reigns there, this is also racist as fuck because you can't even imagine Palestinians governing themselves.
How did Lenin's revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
Just because you're an amoral smug piece of shit doesn't mean the general public is. Unlike yourself, most people actually don't twist themselves into knots in order to justify their support of genocide.
When have libs even tried to move public opinion to the left lately? Did they try to move public opinion on immigration or did they offer to give the republicans every fascist measure they want for the border?
We were done with you before you even got here, not worth our time
You really cannot see past your upturned nose can you?
You keep implying that the users here are some sort of political action group within the two-party charade of American electoral politics. That the extent of their possibly action is what they post on this niche little corner of the internet.
You may live your life as though every tweet you make is part of some targeted electoral campaign to move the needle in a political horse race, feeling as though that counts as action. But most people here don't.
Most have little time for dead end electoralism. Many could not vote even if they did as they're not from or in the US. People post here for fun, or to share information and ideas, or just to post pictures of cool animals even. Being on a website isn't their entire life, it's not their only concept of action or praxis or organising or whatever you tell yourself you're doing with this nonsense. Their action is done in the real world for the most part, or, if they do organise online, it's in other communities on other terms.
You've done the equivalent of walking into the pub discussion of strangers, with no context or understanding of them or what they're discussing, and loudly telling them all they'll never get win over the electorate with that messaging. They're not trying to, you have no idea what you're even trying to talk about, and you weren't invited to participate in the first place. And yet you seem shocked and confused when they tell you that.
You can't even say the genocide is inevitable but at least you'll get an increased minimum wage with Biden. He's actively creating the false scarcity where reactionaries thrive. He's their partner in this disaster. It doesn't really matter if you vote for him or not because it all leads to genocide, but I'm telling you I'm not voting for him.
Where did you get the idea that I'm a fan of Biden? I'm a realist. If your vote helps swing the election to Trump, the genocide will get worse, but your smugness would be intact.
Genocide is how capitalist crises are resolved. I don't see how this dynamic is changed under Trump or Biden. In fact, this particular genocide has been a multidecade project for both of their parties. They're both in final solution mode. Maybe I'm being smug, but it's also empirical reality. Shit, Biden is already president and he has refused to use the power of his position to stop it, which he could do completely at any moment.
Other than a meaningless air drop that literally kills people by crushing them how would this actually be different with Trump as president? With whatever differences you come up with, are those actually of consequence, or is it a slightly different way to carry out the exact same genocide?
This shit sucks. Don't be mad at the people who notice.
I'm still not seeing a viable alternative. I disagree with your assessment of Biden's power and of the two parties, but that isn't even relevant since I'm not seeing a viable plan or any progress at all by you folks.
Blaming Biden for a few incidental deaths from a single incident is really dumb. There is no method of moving that much food into a crisis area without some risk of fatal accidents.
Trump would simply not supply aid at all. His son in law was just on TV salivating over the cheap beach-front property.
Yes shit sucks. No, you aren't the only ones to notice. Nobody's mad at you for noticing, but dickishness is not a political strategy.
I disagree with your assessment of Biden's power and of the two parties, but that isn't even relevant since I'm not seeing a viable plan or any progress at all by you folks.
Everything they said about the two parties was objectively true. And wow, nobody’s telling me how I can stop the genocide so I guess I’ll just vote for it again.
The adults in the room know that genocide is inevitable, that public opinion has nothing to do with material interests but simply with optics, and that it’s impossible to think outside of electoralism.
So revolution is impossible. Organising a power base outside of electoral politics is impossible. Stopping a genocide is impossible.
So the only solution is to slavishly support and empower the very regime that is actively supporting that genocide, because they unequivocally believe in it and will not be moved regardless of how bad public opinion gets or whether it costs them their positions.
Also, not only do you have to fight your enemy by devoting all your time to making them stronger, but you also have to be super nice and polite to everyone about it, because power and solidarity is actually built from tone policing in advocacy of things you don't believe on small corners of the internet instead of mutual aid and material conditions.
You'd be literally more useful doing nothing. Get out of here with that wrecker bullshit.
No, revolution isn't impossible, at least I don't think so. What revolution takes is a whole lot of hard work, and solid political strategies. The world today is very different from anything that came before. You can't turn a country the size of the US with brute force,band there is no easy button.
Of all the people on this planet who have failed to stop this genocide, you are most definitely one of them, so maybe ease up a bit on telling other people they are doing it wrong.
So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible
So revolution is possible now, but it comes by empowering the reactionary state regime and attacking those who don't fall in line? You talk about hard work but offer nothing but vague assertions that anything but a slavish dedication to passive electoralism directly opposed to your supposed interests is wrong or impossible. It's wrecker bullshit and I suspect you know it.
Of all the people on this planet who have failed to stop this genocide, you are most definitely one of them
Perhaps I will be, but I'll also know I tried. I'll know I devoted time and money and energy to Palestinian solidarity causes, even long before this most recent escalation of genocide. And, without getting too specific, I'll know that, for example, direct action disrupting the supply of arms to Israel from my country has made a damn sight more positive impact than you shaking your fucking pom poms for the genociders and demanding everyone else dance for them too.
so maybe ease up a bit on telling other people they are doing it wrong.
You came here, to an international community of communists and anarchists who overwhelmingly do not believe in the vapid electoralism of the US, and most of whom couldn't cast a vote even if they did, to browbeat people into not giving tacit support to a reactionary state regime engaged in genocide. While also insisting that any potential alternative is childish, impossible, and harmful. Sounds like this one is on you.
And they won't. The only ones they reply to is where they think they can do some bullshit rhetorical deflection. They'll never justify their position or state their argument clearly, because they're totally full of shit and they know it.
So did you miss the US putting forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council? Yeah, it wasn't good enough (and that's why it failed) but that's a huge leap from where we were before when the US was absolutely opposed to a ceasefire. That sure as hell looks like a result of electoral pressure. The uncommitted campaign did that, and if it weren't for fucking coward Blue No Matter Who's like you we'd actually be able to push Biden on the issue.
I supported the uncommitted campaign. Biden is still better for Palestine than Trump, and you still have no viable path to a third option. The politics of outrage just drives people away.
You're just defining a tiny in-group, then putting everyone else in an out-group. There is no room for building alliances or cooperation because everyone else is just the enemy. It wouldn't even matter if we had rank choice voting, you would still be irrelevant.
You blinkered libs repeat this ad infinitum because (assuming you actually believe it) you've made the farce of red vs blue American political theatre your whole world. I don't view the world like that, users here in general don't, and most people aren't American voters.
But it also doesn't even stand up to scrutiny on its own merits if you assume everyone is an American electoral obsessed lib like yourself:
The Biden admin is committing genocide, factually and materially right now. The fact that another admin in all likelihood would is still less certain than the unshakable material reality of actual current events.
Given the evidence of the previous Trump presidency, there's every reason to believe that a Trump admin would be less competent and less functional, which could prove better for Palestine and America's victims.
Trump would actually receive opposition both politically and in terms of laundered public opinion from liberals like yourself, thr Democrats, and potentially the few diehard never-Trump Republicans. That would also be an improvement over an admin that skates by without real opposition and that you're insisting even those opposed to it have to offer support to.
Trump has historically been unpredictable on foreign policy and diplomacy with foreign leaders. He's more prone to shifting his position on the basis of grudges, flattery, social connections, hell, even being bought off potentially. When the certainty is continued, unlimited genocide, any uncertainly is an opportunity for improvement.
The whole fucking point of the uncommitted campaign is to leverage our support to force Biden to capitulate to our demands.
You aren't willing to do that. You are committed to Biden and thus undermining the uncommitted campaign, because you're telling Biden that he can do anything he wants and you will support him. You and every Blue No Matter Who like you are responsible for Biden not being responsive to demands from his electoral base until recently. They really thought they couldn't lose enough votes to matter and we can pressure him by making it clear that he is going to lose if he supports genocide. Already he has been moved on this issue and we can move him farther. He should know I'll vote for him if there's a permanent ceasefire, UNRWA funding, and an end to military support for Israel.
That's the viable third option - we force him to capitulate and end the genocide. We can do it. Why are you undermining us?
Biden and the rest of the establishment have no idea how many of those uncommitted votes will or won't vote for Biden in the general, and nothing I say has any effect on that.
Here is the comment I originally responded to:
Also, it’s great because the same people who said we could push him left are now mad because… we are trying to push him left
The only thing I'm saying is that Biden actually has been pushed left, and many of us who think Biden is preferable to Trump are absolutely in favor of continuing to push him left.
This is one of those Internet bubbles you keep hearing about. You folks have your little in-group, and everyone who doesn't line up exactly with the group is an outsider. That's exactly how you convince politicians that you aren't worth paying attention to. My state hasn't voted yet. Maybe I'll vote "uncommitted" like I planned, or maybe I get so fed up with this edgy nonsense that I vote Biden. That's not likely in my case, but this shit does drive people away. You are more concerned with maintaining your edgy rebel status than actually moving public opinion. I think winning on policy would be a disaster in your eyes because you would no longer be special.
or maybe I get so fed up with this edgy nonsense that I vote Biden.
"Do what I want or I'll eagerly cosign your genocide next" do you fucking hear yourself cracker
Literally threatening to support genocide because your fragile fucking feelings were hurt, you COLLABORATOR PIECE OF SHIT. I don't believe you were ever going to vote uncommitted from that singular fucking comment alone. You have no bonafides, you have no real beliefs beyond whatever gets you your treats, you are neither Malcolm X's Northern nor Southern dog-- but a new breed; a Midwestern dog. Servile to any genocidal wretch that wags your tail and offers you their table scraps.
You and everybody like you literally sicken me; because if I'm just unlucky and I have to die here, whoever comes next is gonna think I was with you people. Death to your optics, death to Amerika, death to Israel, death to NATO, death to the entire Five-Eyed Empire, until AFRICOM is collapsed, until the global subject-of-empire's chains are broken, until you lose the perch that you've been sitting so goddamn smug on.
If this is one of those narrow little internet bubbles that 'you keep hearing about' then the idea that your liberal tone policing bullshit would have a wide impact doesn't even make sense.
And speaking of bubbles, you've created one for yourself in which anything outside of voting against your beliefs and interests while promising not even to speak harshly of the people and things you claim to oppose is impossible and unacceptable. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of options or room for alternatives in your tight little bubble of reality there.
Never mind which, again, most people are not American voters.
Yes, Biden has been pushed by us, that's why he put forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the security council. We did that! That's an accomplishment of the uncommitted movement and the only thing I'm saying is that Biden still has to be pushed farther and that he can be if we stay committed to being uncommitted. It's clearly working and we don't need cynics like you undermining our message with Blue No Matter Whoism. This genocide can be stopped, and the only reason it might fail is because of people like you choosing to put vibes over politics.
I will vote for Biden if he capitulates. That's hardly edgy rebellion, that's just normal politics. We're doing politics. Why does that make you so mad?
If online discourse makes you so mad that you actually vote for genocide in the primaries you need to log off.
What did I say that was 100% liberal? There haven't even been any policy disagreements! This whole discussion has been about political strategy, not policy, and not economic philosophy.
It's in-group out-group dynamics. You think your insular bubble gets to own leftism, and everyone outside it is liberal at best.
You think your insular bubble gets to own leftism, and everyone outside it is liberal at best.
We objectively do. What policy you claim to espouse (because as I've elaborated on in an earlier comment, you are little more than a domesticated midwestern lapdog nuzzling the Oxfords of the democrat party at this point) is the same internationally-defined neoliberal austerity-and-murder horseshit that the truly civilized world has languished under for more than 50 years. The only thing left about you is the side of your body, and maybe what side of the bed you sleep on. You would cosign literal genocide if it kept the treat dispenser running.
All you need to be considered "left" by the abysmally-suboptimal standards of civics education in this shithole of a country, is lukewarm tolerance of queer folk and the ability to hide the most abhorrent anti-Blackness under a rock until you're behind the closed doors of your own home; and you think being a Third Wayer in Amerika of all fucking places is enough to claim you deserve fellowship. It'd be fuckin laughable if it wasn't so fractally wrong.
Whatever definition of 'leftism' you ascribe to would be such a watered down, non-descript, and half baked understanding at best, based off of what you have posted. Nobody on this forum claims to own leftism, but we sure as shit know that you are not a part of it, you genocidal lapdog dipshit.
Honestly, I'm willing to let the boulder flatten the 'shining city' behind me at this point. Nothing I've seen on this earth, being trapped by wage slavery in paycheck-to-paycheck binds that keep me from escaping, has led me to believe that 'shining city' is still worth saving. Maybe something better can be built of the rubble the boulder leaves in its wake.
Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all?
You've admitted yourself that the uncommitted campaign is the only thing that has actually served to push him to the left, so yes? They have. Your plan to be committed while lying about being uncommitted can only serve to undermine our effort in the long run, so fuck off, liberal scum
Okay Sisyphus
Awesome dig. But, it makes me wonder. Have you or your strategies made any progress, or are you just not trying to push the boulder at all? In which way are you not Sisyphus?
How far have you pushed the boulder? I've pushed it sooo far that it's publicly saying it's a little annoyed about the genocide it's perpetrating. That's progress.
The increased aid isn't nothing. It's not enough, but it's something we might not have without people pushing that boulder. It's also just one issue. Overall Biden's administration has been much further left than his history predicted.
Soooo much further left. How’s that border wall coming?
Wrt US aid, it literally is nothing, it’s PR nonsense. You CANNOT be left wing and propping up/funding a genocide.
That nothing aid is saving lives. You clearly care more about being smug than helping Palestinians. If it were Trump I guarantee it would be worse.
You stabbed me once, but the other guy would stab me twice? Wow I gotta vote for the lesser evil. That nothing aid is NOT saving lives as it’s coupled with complete support for Israeli settler-colonialism. It’s not a genuine gesture to help Palestinians, it’s a cynical PR campaign. The way to help Palestinians is to get the US OUT of Palestine.
I wonder if there is a report on how much aid actually makes it to Palestinians. I have seen Israeli settlers blocking trucks, seizing supplies, protected by the IDF.
Are we talking about literally dropping aid onto Palestinians and killing them while also funding an army that's committing a genocide against Palestinians? That's not what I call saving lives.
I guess I'm just a smug asshole?
Yes
Flour Massacre.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-airdropped-aid-deaths-intl/index.html
The airdropped aid literally killed people, because the US refuses to stand up to Israel and tell them to let aid in other ways.
How would you deliver aid in a way that was guaranteed not to kill anyone? Trucks? Nope, those kill people every day. Push carts? Nope, too slow and people would die of exhaustion. Boats? That takes a dock and we're building one. (And people can die that way too.)
I personally don't think Biden has the ability to force Israel to do anything unless he does it through military force, which I don't support. Russia or China would quickly fill the vacuum if the US just pulled out. Ramping up pressure over time maximizes the US's influence over Israel. I think Biden should have ramped it up a lot faster, but it is the most effective strategy.
Israel is literally a US client state, how do you not think that they could be brought immediately to heel if those in power wished it?
Edit: Sorry, I saw your other posts. You are just the dumbest motherfucker alive.
The aid truck don't kill people, the IOF who use the aid trucks as bait kill people, genocidal settlers protesting to keep the trucks getting in kills people by starvation
Neither Russia nor China could ever be as evil as
even if they actively tried
Flour Massacre.
You know what would save Palestinian lives? Making Israel stop their genocide, something Biden absolutely has the power to do. Why isn't he doing it?
Here it is, we found it, the molten core of self-delusional liberal fascism
You boneless, bloodless fucks are like those cannibal ghouls in warhammer who live in an Arthurian hallucination and are fully convinced they're noble questing knights
Age of Sigmar
Flour Massacre.
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We're feeding the people who are being shot by the people we are arming.
Progress!
Well it's only fair, death row inmates get a last meal after all.
ooff... I was not prepared for the darkness...
Dark humor is the only way for me to maintain sanity in the face of all this, I do apologize though that might be a bit too dark hah
There are huge pro-Palestine protests going on in the states, (and elsewhere) have been since October 7th. He still refuses to budge a fucking inch, funding & arming the genocide whilst USian citizens get in shit for supporting Palestine.
That boulder?
I didn't ask "which boulder". To put it plainly, my question was what different strategy from pushing Biden left has achieved something more, or whether they just prefer to be a bystander and jeer from the sidelines.
Biden is far from perfect, but he has indeed been pushed to the left on many issues. Based on his record it would be fair to predict that he would be right of Obama of Clinton, and he has generally been further left. (Not a high bar to clear.)
Are you a complete asshole? He is literally funding and arming a fucking genocide. Where the fuck do you draw the line if not at genocide?
He has not been pushed left on anything. He canned his student debt relief plans, he's currently in the middle of lettings tons of anti-trans bills pass while pushing a bill that includes a ban on pride flags at embassies and such. He is not dramatically different from any Republican, he still puts kids in cages at the border.
You remind me why I hate liberals so passionately.
He’s NOT perfect okay, nobody is. Sure there’s the genocide and the concentration camps and the border wall and the strike breaking and you know what? Look, we all make mistakes, that’s what makes us human. Like Jesus said, let anyone who is without sin throw the first stone.
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I mean.. I know he's murdering babies... but like... its not OUR babies.
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Oh my god shut the fuck up. Biden is literally arming a genocide against the Palestinians right fucking now. You don't get to pull this "well the other guy would be worse" line when your guy is committing actual war crimes with zero remorse. "Well you see under Trump Israel would slaughter 300 civilians every day compared to the 250 civilians per day being slaughtered under Biden" fuck you.
Stop supporting genocide you piece of shit
What line are we drawing? Maybe "don't do a fucking genocide" is a good place to start. Sounds like you support the genocide though. How does that feel to know that you are supporting the senseless slaughter of an entire people? Does that feel like you're doing the right thing? Bet you won't answer though
You are a liberal. Oh, sorry you’re a Bernie-supporting leftist who wants the US to be like Sweden without understanding at all why they aren’t or why Sweden is.
I don't even understand that last sentence. Bernie was the best choice in that race. It's not like Warren was going to usher in a Communist Eutopia.
Here's what you don't get. If you want power you need public support. You can't bypass public opinion and fix the system. That's what Republicans tried to do with Abortion. They went after the power by any means necessary, driving public opinion away from them in the process. They got what they wanted and have been fucked in every election since.
I doubt that your approach will ever achieve anything but, if you do, you wont be able to sustain it. That's exactly why radical communist revolutions have such an abysmal track record.
Because the United imperialist nations can’t help but commit genocide at the slightest sign of resistance?
We don't want power, we want justice, an end to genocide...
I assumed you understood that you need power to get that.
And this is what your party does with power.
Genocide supporter
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eat shit and die liberal scum
Death to America
I'm not pushing on that boulder no. I'm doing lots of actual effective organizing and effort elsewhere though. Stuff that makes real differences to real people. So you keep wasting your effort on voting for genocide and I'll keep cleaning up the mess you make. Hopefully someday you stop wasting your time supporting genocide and instead start spending it doing something that matters
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Genocide isn’t on the ballot? Wow, maybe we should violently overthrow whatever “democracy” doesn’t let you vote against genocide. The popular vote amounts to those fake steering wheels in cars for toddlers anyways.
So that's your alternative? A violent overthrow of the US government? Ignoring the fact that it's not possible, there would be no Palestinians left by the time it was done. The aid would certainly come to a swift end.
The left (including myself) couldn't gather enough support to nominate Bernie, but you think you can put together a cohesive army to overthrow the US by force? And who's to say the left would even be in control when the smoke cleared? You are just being ridiculous.
It’s not impossible, and with the US aid coming to an end there would also be the end to support of the Israeli settler regime, support which vastly overpowers this aid.
LMAO.
No material analysis. The reason you think the left doesn’t have support in the US is due to opportunism and the dual interests of labor in the imperial core. So, if the dust settles and US interference abroad had crumbled, it would certainly be the left in control. Read Lenin’s Imperialism.
Without foreign assistance, Israel can't exist. With America out of the picture, it would just be Russia or China. Either one would like to grow their influence in the region,band Israel has plenty of technology expertise to offer.
Yes, it's impossible. Out of every ten people you recruit for your little revolution, at least one will be a fed. You'll be done before you even start.
The left does have support in the US. A violent leftist revolution doesn't. Right wing militias would be the least of your concerns. The wealthy of the US have their own private armies and intelligence agencies, not to mention the money to buy foreign support and arms. The dollar wouldn't become worthless until you won.
How did Lenin's revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
Except neither Russia nor China would have anything to gain by taking over the colonial reigns there, this is also racist as fuck because you can't even imagine Palestinians governing themselves.
Please fuck off liberal.
Nothing happened in Russia between 1924 and 1991, no sir.
How did Lenin's revolution end up? The Russia he built is even more of an oligarchy than the US.
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I’m making fun of the other user
Oops
That reply pretty much does my argument for me. This is not a group that will ever move public opinion on anything.
Just because you're an amoral smug piece of shit doesn't mean the general public is. Unlike yourself, most people actually don't twist themselves into knots in order to justify their support of genocide.
When have libs even tried to move public opinion to the left lately? Did they try to move public opinion on immigration or did they offer to give the republicans every fascist measure they want for the border?
We were done with you before you even got here, not worth our time
You really cannot see past your upturned nose can you?
You keep implying that the users here are some sort of political action group within the two-party charade of American electoral politics. That the extent of their possibly action is what they post on this niche little corner of the internet.
You may live your life as though every tweet you make is part of some targeted electoral campaign to move the needle in a political horse race, feeling as though that counts as action. But most people here don't.
Most have little time for dead end electoralism. Many could not vote even if they did as they're not from or in the US. People post here for fun, or to share information and ideas, or just to post pictures of cool animals even. Being on a website isn't their entire life, it's not their only concept of action or praxis or organising or whatever you tell yourself you're doing with this nonsense. Their action is done in the real world for the most part, or, if they do organise online, it's in other communities on other terms.
You've done the equivalent of walking into the pub discussion of strangers, with no context or understanding of them or what they're discussing, and loudly telling them all they'll never get win over the electorate with that messaging. They're not trying to, you have no idea what you're even trying to talk about, and you weren't invited to participate in the first place. And yet you seem shocked and confused when they tell you that.
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You can't even say the genocide is inevitable but at least you'll get an increased minimum wage with Biden. He's actively creating the false scarcity where reactionaries thrive. He's their partner in this disaster. It doesn't really matter if you vote for him or not because it all leads to genocide, but I'm telling you I'm not voting for him.
Where did you get the idea that I'm a fan of Biden? I'm a realist. If your vote helps swing the election to Trump, the genocide will get worse, but your smugness would be intact.
Genocide is how capitalist crises are resolved. I don't see how this dynamic is changed under Trump or Biden. In fact, this particular genocide has been a multidecade project for both of their parties. They're both in final solution mode. Maybe I'm being smug, but it's also empirical reality. Shit, Biden is already president and he has refused to use the power of his position to stop it, which he could do completely at any moment.
Other than a meaningless air drop that literally kills people by crushing them how would this actually be different with Trump as president? With whatever differences you come up with, are those actually of consequence, or is it a slightly different way to carry out the exact same genocide?
This shit sucks. Don't be mad at the people who notice.
I'm still not seeing a viable alternative. I disagree with your assessment of Biden's power and of the two parties, but that isn't even relevant since I'm not seeing a viable plan or any progress at all by you folks.
Blaming Biden for a few incidental deaths from a single incident is really dumb. There is no method of moving that much food into a crisis area without some risk of fatal accidents.
Trump would simply not supply aid at all. His son in law was just on TV salivating over the cheap beach-front property.
Yes shit sucks. No, you aren't the only ones to notice. Nobody's mad at you for noticing, but dickishness is not a political strategy.
Everything they said about the two parties was objectively true. And wow, nobody’s telling me how I can stop the genocide so I guess I’ll just vote for it again.
The adults in the room know that genocide is inevitable, that public opinion has nothing to do with material interests but simply with optics, and that it’s impossible to think outside of electoralism.
So revolution is impossible. Organising a power base outside of electoral politics is impossible. Stopping a genocide is impossible.
So the only solution is to slavishly support and empower the very regime that is actively supporting that genocide, because they unequivocally believe in it and will not be moved regardless of how bad public opinion gets or whether it costs them their positions.
Also, not only do you have to fight your enemy by devoting all your time to making them stronger, but you also have to be super nice and polite to everyone about it, because power and solidarity is actually built from tone policing in advocacy of things you don't believe on small corners of the internet instead of mutual aid and material conditions.
You'd be literally more useful doing nothing. Get out of here with that wrecker bullshit.
No, revolution isn't impossible, at least I don't think so. What revolution takes is a whole lot of hard work, and solid political strategies. The world today is very different from anything that came before. You can't turn a country the size of the US with brute force,band there is no easy button.
Of all the people on this planet who have failed to stop this genocide, you are most definitely one of them, so maybe ease up a bit on telling other people they are doing it wrong.
You, in one of the above comments:
So revolution is possible now, but it comes by empowering the reactionary state regime and attacking those who don't fall in line? You talk about hard work but offer nothing but vague assertions that anything but a slavish dedication to passive electoralism directly opposed to your supposed interests is wrong or impossible. It's wrecker bullshit and I suspect you know it.
Perhaps I will be, but I'll also know I tried. I'll know I devoted time and money and energy to Palestinian solidarity causes, even long before this most recent escalation of genocide. And, without getting too specific, I'll know that, for example, direct action disrupting the supply of arms to Israel from my country has made a damn sight more positive impact than you shaking your fucking pom poms for the genociders and demanding everyone else dance for them too.
You came here, to an international community of communists and anarchists who overwhelmingly do not believe in the vapid electoralism of the US, and most of whom couldn't cast a vote even if they did, to browbeat people into not giving tacit support to a reactionary state regime engaged in genocide. While also insisting that any potential alternative is childish, impossible, and harmful. Sounds like this one is on you.
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They didn't respond to this one
And they won't. The only ones they reply to is where they think they can do some bullshit rhetorical deflection. They'll never justify their position or state their argument clearly, because they're totally full of shit and they know it.
So did you miss the US putting forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council? Yeah, it wasn't good enough (and that's why it failed) but that's a huge leap from where we were before when the US was absolutely opposed to a ceasefire. That sure as hell looks like a result of electoral pressure. The uncommitted campaign did that, and if it weren't for fucking coward Blue No Matter Who's like you we'd actually be able to push Biden on the issue.
If we fail it's your fault.
I supported the uncommitted campaign. Biden is still better for Palestine than Trump, and you still have no viable path to a third option. The politics of outrage just drives people away.
You're just defining a tiny in-group, then putting everyone else in an out-group. There is no room for building alliances or cooperation because everyone else is just the enemy. It wouldn't even matter if we had rank choice voting, you would still be irrelevant.
You blinkered libs repeat this ad infinitum because (assuming you actually believe it) you've made the farce of red vs blue American political theatre your whole world. I don't view the world like that, users here in general don't, and most people aren't American voters.
But it also doesn't even stand up to scrutiny on its own merits if you assume everyone is an American electoral obsessed lib like yourself:
The Biden admin is committing genocide, factually and materially right now. The fact that another admin in all likelihood would is still less certain than the unshakable material reality of actual current events.
Given the evidence of the previous Trump presidency, there's every reason to believe that a Trump admin would be less competent and less functional, which could prove better for Palestine and America's victims.
Trump would actually receive opposition both politically and in terms of laundered public opinion from liberals like yourself, thr Democrats, and potentially the few diehard never-Trump Republicans. That would also be an improvement over an admin that skates by without real opposition and that you're insisting even those opposed to it have to offer support to.
Trump has historically been unpredictable on foreign policy and diplomacy with foreign leaders. He's more prone to shifting his position on the basis of grudges, flattery, social connections, hell, even being bought off potentially. When the certainty is continued, unlimited genocide, any uncertainly is an opportunity for improvement.
@Tinidril@midwest.social
You never replied to this. Would you like to now that Trump has called (for his own selfish reasons of course) for Israel to 'end their war in Gaza?'
The whole fucking point of the uncommitted campaign is to leverage our support to force Biden to capitulate to our demands.
You aren't willing to do that. You are committed to Biden and thus undermining the uncommitted campaign, because you're telling Biden that he can do anything he wants and you will support him. You and every Blue No Matter Who like you are responsible for Biden not being responsive to demands from his electoral base until recently. They really thought they couldn't lose enough votes to matter and we can pressure him by making it clear that he is going to lose if he supports genocide. Already he has been moved on this issue and we can move him farther. He should know I'll vote for him if there's a permanent ceasefire, UNRWA funding, and an end to military support for Israel.
That's the viable third option - we force him to capitulate and end the genocide. We can do it. Why are you undermining us?
Biden and the rest of the establishment have no idea how many of those uncommitted votes will or won't vote for Biden in the general, and nothing I say has any effect on that.
Here is the comment I originally responded to:
The only thing I'm saying is that Biden actually has been pushed left, and many of us who think Biden is preferable to Trump are absolutely in favor of continuing to push him left.
This is one of those Internet bubbles you keep hearing about. You folks have your little in-group, and everyone who doesn't line up exactly with the group is an outsider. That's exactly how you convince politicians that you aren't worth paying attention to. My state hasn't voted yet. Maybe I'll vote "uncommitted" like I planned, or maybe I get so fed up with this edgy nonsense that I vote Biden. That's not likely in my case, but this shit does drive people away. You are more concerned with maintaining your edgy rebel status than actually moving public opinion. I think winning on policy would be a disaster in your eyes because you would no longer be special.
"Do what I want or I'll eagerly cosign your genocide next" do you fucking hear yourself cracker
Literally threatening to support genocide because your fragile fucking feelings were hurt, you COLLABORATOR PIECE OF SHIT. I don't believe you were ever going to vote uncommitted from that singular fucking comment alone. You have no bonafides, you have no real beliefs beyond whatever gets you your treats, you are neither Malcolm X's Northern nor Southern dog-- but a new breed; a Midwestern dog. Servile to any genocidal wretch that wags your tail and offers you their table scraps.
You and everybody like you literally sicken me; because if I'm just unlucky and I have to die here, whoever comes next is gonna think I was with you people. Death to your optics, death to Amerika, death to Israel, death to NATO, death to the entire Five-Eyed Empire, until AFRICOM is collapsed, until the global subject-of-empire's chains are broken, until you lose the perch that you've been sitting so goddamn smug on.
You're contradicting yourself.
If this is one of those narrow little internet bubbles that 'you keep hearing about' then the idea that your liberal tone policing bullshit would have a wide impact doesn't even make sense.
And speaking of bubbles, you've created one for yourself in which anything outside of voting against your beliefs and interests while promising not even to speak harshly of the people and things you claim to oppose is impossible and unacceptable. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of options or room for alternatives in your tight little bubble of reality there.
Never mind which, again, most people are not American voters.
Yes, Biden has been pushed by us, that's why he put forward a weak ceasefire resolution at the security council. We did that! That's an accomplishment of the uncommitted movement and the only thing I'm saying is that Biden still has to be pushed farther and that he can be if we stay committed to being uncommitted. It's clearly working and we don't need cynics like you undermining our message with Blue No Matter Whoism. This genocide can be stopped, and the only reason it might fail is because of people like you choosing to put vibes over politics.
I will vote for Biden if he capitulates. That's hardly edgy rebellion, that's just normal politics. We're doing politics. Why does that make you so mad?
If online discourse makes you so mad that you actually vote for genocide in the primaries you need to log off.
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Then why do you sound 100% like a liberal? I don't get it.
What did I say that was 100% liberal? There haven't even been any policy disagreements! This whole discussion has been about political strategy, not policy, and not economic philosophy.
It's in-group out-group dynamics. You think your insular bubble gets to own leftism, and everyone outside it is liberal at best.
If you're telling us to vote for Genocide Joe then you're a liberal
We objectively do. What policy you claim to espouse (because as I've elaborated on in an earlier comment, you are little more than a domesticated midwestern lapdog nuzzling the Oxfords of the democrat party at this point) is the same internationally-defined neoliberal austerity-and-murder horseshit that the truly civilized world has languished under for more than 50 years. The only thing left about you is the side of your body, and maybe what side of the bed you sleep on. You would cosign literal genocide if it kept the treat dispenser running.
All you need to be considered "left" by the abysmally-suboptimal standards of civics education in this shithole of a country, is lukewarm tolerance of queer folk and the ability to hide the most abhorrent anti-Blackness under a rock until you're behind the closed doors of your own home; and you think being a Third Wayer in Amerika of all fucking places is enough to claim you deserve fellowship. It'd be fuckin laughable if it wasn't so fractally wrong.
Yes. Death to AmeriKKKa, death to “Israel,” and death to NATO. This is leftism.
Whatever definition of 'leftism' you ascribe to would be such a watered down, non-descript, and half baked understanding at best, based off of what you have posted. Nobody on this forum claims to own leftism, but we sure as shit know that you are not a part of it, you genocidal lapdog dipshit.
Honestly, I'm willing to let the boulder flatten the 'shining city' behind me at this point. Nothing I've seen on this earth, being trapped by wage slavery in paycheck-to-paycheck binds that keep me from escaping, has led me to believe that 'shining city' is still worth saving. Maybe something better can be built of the rubble the boulder leaves in its wake.
You genocidal settlers are not my countrymen.
Voting uncommitted.
You've admitted yourself that the uncommitted campaign is the only thing that has actually served to push him to the left, so yes? They have. Your plan to be committed while lying about being uncommitted can only serve to undermine our effort in the long run, so fuck off, liberal scum
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Well I voted for Hilary so no that strategy didn't work.
Now I didn't vote and just make fun of liberals online. Learned my lesson.