:reddit-logo:
the help systems in place are grossly overloaded
should we improve our welfare and healthcare systems somewhat? nah, let's just send the SS to gun down disabled children, seems easier :agony-limitless:
he is literally advocating for the Kinder-Euthanasie program even using the rhetoric that they are useless eaters I reckonise a lot of their reasoning from learning about the holocaust in school.
This is actual unambiguous Nazism
"This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think everyone who's inferior to us perfect bacon narwhal Ubermeschen should be fucking murdered"
+1063856 upboats
Least dehumanizing antinatalist.
The dehumanizing language in antinatalist thought uses runs deep, from calling babies "crotch goblins", people who have babies "breeders", comparing people to animals, etc. No surprise such disregard for their fellow humans ends up in eugenics.
And this is coming from someone that doesn't want to have kids
yeah if you actually hate children for no other reason than them being children then i don't know what led you to this but you have become the villain of a British children's book written in the 1930's and really you should be aspiring to be more than that
Not all antinatalists are like the fascist freaks on that subreddit.
im anti-natalism in the sense that "natalism" is what leads to things like The Second Shift/the overturning of Roe/"domestic supply of infants" rhetroic. you literally cannot land there, especially that last one, without natalism.
IDK what the freaks on reddit are on about
Well, theoretically they believe people shouldn't reproduce, but looking at their communications they seem much more unhinged and incoherent.
I'm an antinatalist in a certain sense, but it has almost no bearing on the current world. I certainly wouldn't shame someone for reproducing (so long as they aren't a Quiverfull-style hyper-natalist like you allude to) and might even have kids myself depending on what my partner wants, but I feel that the most reasonable thing for a united, coordinated, communist humanity is to work to end the universe in order to minimize the amount of life that is born into existence.
But right now, refusing to have kids because of some idea about birth in general being bad is performative. It's like a socialist giving all of their wealth away, it's a worthless method of creating actual change.
Literal strawman come to life. The goal of communism is not to end the universe, you sound like a cartoon character.
"With a press of this button, I shall stop all movement in every atom in the universe, thereby rendering all of existence a PERFECTLY EQUAL zero Kelvins! BEHOLD! THE VICTORY OF COMMUNISM!"
people who have babies “breeders”,
the gay community did that 30 years ago
There's a clear difference in culpability between an oppressed group mocking a group which attacks them and has a life they aren'tallowed to, and some privileged folks mocking others for wanting a differentlife than they do.
all antinatalists are privileged sure.
no wannabe granparents harass their kids to have them, no women are opportunistically raped by natalist men who are so offended that somebody doesn't want to reproduce.
people who don't want kids are incredibly offensive to capital and all the :brainworms: people who insist we're morally obligated to have kids we don't want.
Not wanting to have kids isn't the same as being an anti-natalist. If you go out of your way to get upset at people having kids, I have to assume that's a result of privilege.
antinatalists are a subset of "don't want kids", and we receive the same harassment and disdain.
if you go out of your way to get upset at people
having kidssubjecting people to harm, i have to assume that's a result of privilegeTook me a day, but I just realized none of what you listed were examples of a lack of privilege. Both people who want kids and people who don't will get nagged to have them. The rapist probably doesn't target someone for their politics, any woman they can take advantage of they will. Past that, you have not in any way proven that the subset of people who don't want kids that are antinatalists are from less privileged backgrounds. I've met women who don't want kids, but none that are anti-natalist before. Nor have I met someone lower class who identified with the later, but very often I have with the former. The only people I've met who strongly identify with anti natalism are well-off men. Now, I won't pretend I've met every single person who is antinstalist. I don't know your gender or background. But from what I've seen, it is the case that people who arrive at this idea that all life is suffering and must be ended come from a privileged background. Your fundamental idea that all life is suffering is also bad.
The rapist probably doesn’t target someone for their politics, any woman they can take advantage of they will.
i was specifically referring to corrective rape, which is related to someone being a lesbian, or the wrong religion, or voluntarily childless, or whatever
Both people who want kids and people who don’t will get nagged to have them.
people who say they don't want kids get it worse. that's why childfree safe spaces popped up on the internet.
Past that, you have not in any way proven that the subset of people who don’t want kids that are antinatalists are from less privileged backgrounds.
it's me, jerk. And there are plenty of other people who become antinatalists because of the suffering they experienced. you don't have to be a malthusian ecofascist or whatever the fuck negative thing you weird forced-lifers associate antinatalism with to see that living necessarily means suffering, and that a hypothetical person who never exists isn't deprived of anything and the logic follows from there.
Your fundamental idea that all life is suffering is also bad.
show me a person who has literally never suffered.
I'm not a forced lifer, I don't think you should have to have kids and would agree without a lot of people in the world today shouldn't have had the kids they did. It should be your choice alone based on whether you personally want kids and feel you can support them. However, the idea that every single birth is a bad thing I cannot agree with in the slightest. I cannot show you the person who never suffered, but I doubt you can show me the person who has never once felt happiness. Moreover, a hypothetical nonexistent person has not been deprived of nothing, they've been deprived of everything. Every single experience one can have in their life is meaningful and beautiful, from the heights of joy to the depths of sorrow and the middlings of boredom, this is all a unique and wonderful. There are experiences I would prefer not to have compared to other experiences, but between them and experiencing nothing I would always choose them. The hypothetical person can also lead to weird ideas like "what about all the children someone isn't having" or "what about the hypothetical me after I die." Bottom line, don't have kids if you don't want to or can't and I don't care either way, but once you have the philosophical underpinning that living is bad I think that's seriously wrong.
I cannot show you the person who never suffered, but I doubt you can show me the person who has never once felt happiness.
ah-ha! What makes you think suffering and happiness are exchangeable like that? What gives you the right to decide for others that any amount of happiness is worth any amount of suffering? 100% of people will suffer a non-zero amount, therefore making more people exist is immoral. Two people had sex in the 80s and now i have to work and pay bills, as the saying goes. I didn't sign up for this, nobody did.
and no, people who never exist cannot be deprived of anything, because they don't exist. Some nonesense like increasing total happiness is irrelevant in the face of inducing someone to suffer.
If happiness doesn't matter, neither does suffering. I can reverse ever one of your statements and it makes just as much logical sense, who are you to decide any amount of suffering makes any amount of happiness not worth It? You've arbitrarily decided one of two feelings matters more than the other. Or i could put a positive value on suffering. There's no reason not to. It feels bad, but so does exercise, both can help you grow or just break you. My main point was that experiences themselves, good or bad, matter, and you've decided to ignore that so you can gotcha me on an aside about your own opinion. Also, you do decide to be here. From the day you understood what death was and had the capacity to bring it about for yourself, you've been able to choose not to exist. Something seems to matter enough that you don't. I'm happy for that, life is beautiful and I'm glad you choose it each and every day.
the second half of your lower response has literally nothing to do with the first. A hypothetical person has been deprived of literally everything, you've imagined someone you could give life, family, a home, food, joy, and decided not to. As I myself stated, I think the hypothetical person argument is not worth discussing, because of all the possibilities it opens up that are nonsense. I'm creating infinite hypothetical people every minute I'm not putting an egg and some sperm together.
who are you to decide any amount of suffering makes any amount of happiness not worth It?
because causing someone suffering or not has a very clear moral difference while causing happiness or not is whatever.
we have an obligation to eachother not to cause harm, we have no obligation to try to make somebody happy.
don't punch me in the face and try to buy me off you fucking forced life freak.
don’t punch me in the face and try to buy me off you fucking forced life freak.
What has been really fun this whole discussion is you just ignoring most of what I say so you can do your anti-natalist greatest hits collection. I agree with you that society's views on reproduction are messed up, I am against anyone being forced or pressured to have kids by government or family or any other institution. I don't think everyone needs to have kids or that their life is incomplete without it. I think if you want kids you should go for it, because existence is not as awful as you paint it. My fundamental philosophical underpinning(which i have restated twice and you have decided to never once even pretend to interact with) is that experiencing anything is worthwhile, and any life that does exist is meaningful in this way. You really really wanted to talk about happiness versus suffering, and even there did not engage with the point I made but the point you wanted me to make. Your arguments are still bad, because your obligations are relative to your society, and in our society you are obligated to try to make at least three kinds of people happy: your spouse, your friends, and your children. If we wanted to engage with my point, which was your measurement of a life, not a parent's obligations in it, you've not in any way shown suffering to be different than happiness. I'm not engaging past this, have a long and happy life.
I am against anyone being forced or pressured to have kids by government or family or any other institution.
it's not about that part of it, it's about that when somebody decides to have a kid they're forcing that person to live
experiencing anything is worthwhile,
fuuuuuuck you. tell that to people who have horrible things done to them. tell that to assault victims. tell that to people with horrible chronic pain. You disgusting piece of shit torture apologist.
I wonder what ideology comes from thinking "people with chronic pain should never have been born." I personally like to tell people who are struggling with immense pain "I'm happy you're still alive" but sure go ahead say they'd be better off dead. You are a bad person, and I would never allow you to speak to anyone who is suffering.
.” I personally like to tell people who are struggling with immense pain “I’m happy you’re still alive” but sure go ahead say they’d be better off dead.
I would rather not be suffering you insensitive clod.
why is it so hard for you dorks to understand not being born isn't the same as being alive and dying?
Nazism is such a natural outgrowth of the capitalist worldview, people just keep reinventing it
:rat-salute: @BeamBrain
"At the end of capitalism, there is Hitler." - Aime Cesaire is a fucking banger of a quote.
More like Hexbear: At the end of capitalism there is Hitler. :pit: :stalin-gun-1::stalin-gun-2: :tito-chad:
The work it's from (Discourse On Colonialism) is fantastic and you should read it
Who could have thought reducing human life to valuation could be transferable to Fascism?
As a wholly disaffected and appallingly cynical man, I'm so used to my opinions being despised that I honestly didn't expect anything but hatred.
That 88 isn't his year of birth, and irl he should be Reverse American History X'd.
:fash-bash:
However, I am sick of people using the term 'eugenics' in this case as it's just a buzz word like 'bigotry' to make someone they don't like look bad. I didn't even know that the number 88 was linked to white nationalism until a few years ago because I did not grow up in the US. I'm also Jewish and an immigrant, so I really resent being called a Nazi.
Hmm... interesting, anyways you still a fash.
:fash-bash: :fash-bash:
I’m also Jewish and an immigrant
all nazis suddenly remember they're for realsies part of some marginalized group when you debate them long enough.
Had one publicly come out as bisexual on Facebook after a few of us started calling out a local radio show for being racist and homophobic.
It was pretty fucking funny
Riddle me this, redditers. How can I be facist if I'm Jewish? Why doesn't my extended 'family' ever invite me to bar mitzvahs or weddings? Not like I'd want to go, they're only perpetuating the cycle of painful existence and succumbing to animal behaviors.
I don't think that they are Jewish as my last vestige of faith in humanity refuses to believe a Jewish man could ever support a policy so explicitly and historically linked to the holocaust. To the point that as part of programs directly linked to this policy the Nazi's developed gas based killing methods
:yea: every community has at least a handful of those people. they think they can climb the ladder into acceptability and pull it up behind them. they believe if they just sacrifice everyone who isn't them they'll be allowed in the special club.
It's tragic in it's own way as they will never a good enough for the people they are trying to impress as those people hate them for traits they can't ever change
i find it more tragic in an abstract sense than anything else, i think. like yes it's an awful, sad situation, but at a certain point they've done so much damage to people who aren't choosing to be pieces of shit that they basically deserve whatever they get
Yeah while their situation is tragic they don't make it easy to feel bad for them
:yea:
https://www.theonion.com/man-who-thought-hed-lost-all-hope-loses-last-additional-1819565674
the only problem a lot of jewish ppl have with nazis is that it was done to them, I mean just look at israel
In the OP they say "not sure why she had this kid in the first place", gee I'm sure glad nothing major has happened in the last few months that illustrates that oftentimes the choice to give birth to a child or not is not given to women in the first place 🤔
Not wanting to have your own kid is one thing (to be clear: a totally reasonable and acceptable thing) but broad anti-natalism is eugenics and it is troubling how pervasive the rhetoric is, even among leftists
especially when they single out the poor and disabled as people who shouldn't to use their own term "breed"
but broad anti-natalism is eugenics
no it isn't. rich kids suffer too and it's immoral to force that upon them. treats don't make up for bullying or being assaulted by a priest etc. hell, there's even another angle where raising a kid rich is more likely to make them a sociopathic monster who goes on to harm others and it's probably immoral to create a person who is going to be an Ivy league fratboy.
i would argue trying to stop priests abusing people is a better solution than voluntary extinction but you do you
Is your argument that human life simply isn’t worth living? Cause I’m gonna have to disagree with that one chief
you don't get to decide for other people whether it is or isn't, and you can't know in advance whether someone will think it's worth the pain and suffering, so it's immoral to force people to live.
ok so you want to do a Children of Men but let the last generation live out their lives in pleasure domes and then nothing? Empty universe, empty head, empty existence, suicide on a global scale? Just consider the consequences of your politics. Would it be better to speed things along with a few nuclear wars? Or do people have the right to continue their current existence. There is nothing like a soul existing in the Bardo, waiting to be reborn. There is nothing before life and nothing after. A universe of marbles and probabilities and new chances for life that might not have the same easy time as us. Life that might become intelligent and find that all the easily exploitable resources on Earth have been sucked dry and so, they are forced to live in terrible conditions for aeons, with no hope of ever improving their lives. Are you willing to condemn them to greater suffering than we experience now?
yes, we should seek to minimize suffering. that means luxury communism, no new sapient life, and probably veganism.
the immorality of creating life doesn't suggest murder is suddenly acceptable. We wish we hadn't been born, that's different from wanting to die.
There is nothing like a soul existing in the Bardo, waiting to be reborn. There is nothing before life and nothing after. A universe of marbles and probabilities and new chances for life
yeah and? how does the existence of beings who can suffer and cognitively recognize we are suffering make anything better?
that might not have the same easy time as us
easy time? EASY FUCKING TIME? fuck you. FUCK YOU.
My point is that although life is pain now, it's comparatively easier to extract fossil fuel from shallow reservoirs than deep ones. The next intelligent species might therefore never develop labor saving technology.
No need to yell at me, I know what it feels like to be hopeless and in pain and I would prefer that noone has to go through that, but I also know that it doesn't last forever, and there will always be things and people that bring joy and beauty, and those things make life worth living. In my opinion at least.
but I also know that it doesn’t last forever,
no, you can't know that for other people. you don't know the future like that. the hedonic treadmill doesn't mean conditions changed. getting numbed to torture doesn't stop the torture.
I feel pretty confident in saying that most people, past, present or future, have some reason to want to exist, justified or not. That doesn't mean existence is all good and cool.
I just don't understand why your position is what it is, and probably won't without some longer conversation about the specific pains you're going through. I just think it's a selfish, nihilistic position to take, and I don't think you're going to keep thinking this way. I held many of the same views earlier in life but no longer do, and so my viewpoint is colored by that.
I feel pretty confident in saying that most people, past, present or future, have some reason to want to exist, justified or not. That doesn’t mean existence is all good and cool.
we (usually) want to keep living. there would be nobody to care if we weren't born.
I just think it’s a selfish, nihilistic position to take, and I don’t think you’re going to keep thinking this way. I held many of the same views earlier in life but no longer do, and so my viewpoint is colored by that.
suffering is bad
we should minimize suffering
it's immoral to inflict suffering on someone or create conditions that make their suffering inevitable
every person who lives suffers
we don't choose to be conceived or born
creating new people is coercive
it's immoral to create new people because those people will inevitably suffer.
I really don't think you can reason me out of these.
selfish
no, the selfish thing is to have kids when you have a choice not to.
Other people have gone through worse than I have, but what has been done to me is bad enough that jeff bezos giving me all his money tomorrow wouldn't make it OK, and i could live the rest of my life in hedonistic excess and it still wouldn't be worth it.
So many little Eichmanns.
Aktion T4, the Nazi's semi-secret program of murdering the handicapped, disabled, and mentally ill.
Executing people based on a very vague term like tHeIr hUmAnItY sounds like a really good idea dude
a totally arbitrary line that can easily be moved to suit whatever agenda
But never applies to the type of person who would advocate for executing children, oh no.
This guy is advocating for a policy that in Nazi Germany was the precursor to the establishment of the concentration camps and the holocaust.
As in this policy is directly linked to the holocaust
Seems they've lost their own humanity. By their own logic, they should be quietly and humanely euthanized.
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Eugenicists advocate euthanizing people who lack certain traits which are evolutionarily positive.
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Empathy is a near universal human trait which is evolutionarily positive by enabling social interactions and therefore cooperation, which is key to human survival.
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Eugenicism cannot operate with empathy, which points towards Eugenicists not having empathy.
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Eugenicists are lacking an evolutionarily positive trait.
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Eugenicists should advocate for the euthanasia of Eugenicists.
QED
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This poor poster has lost his humanity and, once one loses his humanity, it's time to go.
Hey, not all lives are precious!
If we're gonna euthanize anyone it should be the "88 in username" crowd. Sorry millenials, you're dying for a good cause.
average liberal after figuring out the dead end of their ideology
neo-malthusianism all the way down
yeah almost like saying the market can dictate the value of human life is by extension saying that unproductive people are less worthy of life which is saying things along the lines of "useless eaters" and "life unworthy of life" as well as claiming "their lives are of such low quality as to be not worth living" and then before you know it you're all dressed in black and marching everywhere (except notably out of Stalingrad)
I have a friend whose brain has been completely broken by antinatalism. He can't talk about anything else and it kind of consumed his life for the past few months.
Because once you start to think you're smarter for living your life how you want and don't face real oppression for it you get really smug. New atheism, legal potheads, and so on.
I think with potheads the fact that pot makes things seem more interesting means they can't realise how boring they are
They're fine enough people I've just lived with enough to know they're boring while high and you're sober.
Also discusing varieties of weed is exactly as interesting as spending 2 hours telling me about different varieties of onions
Imo childfree is less inherently prone to extremism because choosing not to procreate is a personal choice that everyone should be entitled to make.
A line gets crossed when you go towards antinatalism, which tries to push non-procreation onto others.
It's the difference between thinking that abortion should be legal and accessible vs yelling at random pregnant women that they should get an abortion.
Malthusian nonsense and eugenicist nonsense
name a more iconic duo
Add antinatalism for the unholy trinity of anti humanity
It's more than that he's advocating for the exact same policies as the Kinder-Euthanasie program which is credited as a precursor to the holocaust.
this guy is a Nazi
