tldr: We colonised and genocided much of the world, and most of the white people in the world now assume that we're richer because we're smarter, not richer because we stole everything. Throughout modern history, nearly all white progressives and leftists have taken the side of imperialism, because it benefits us materially. There's a handful of based white people in history, but they're few and far between.
Edit: if a member of an oppressed group wants to say "fuck white people", the very least I can do is acknowledge all the crimes heaped upon them by us, and not debate bro them about reverse racism or something.
TBH this sounds almost like internalized racism, but the other way around. We're not our ancestors, but still we need to remember that we're prone to their mistakes.
if a member of an oppressed group wants to say "fuck white people", the very least I can do is acknowledge all the crimes heaped upon them by us, and not debate bro them about reverse racism or something.
Even though I came from a working class family from the West, I still have a fuck of white privilege. Having to hear "fuck white ppl" like 2x a year barely comes close to what non-white people have faced.
TBH this sounds almost like internalized racism
DID COLONIALISM AND GENOCIDE NOT FUCKING HAPPEN?!?!?
Also this looks condescending
Honestly, how would you like it phrased??? Oh please sir, care more about Palestine than your ego.
Super cool of you to reframe current and historical oppression as "some abstract guilt". I'm making a real effort to answer your question, but it's like you're making a bad faith effort to not engage with it but rather reframe everything to reaffirm your old beliefs.
No, the reason it's relevant is because white people still benefit overwhelmingly from the colonization that still happens. In addition, racism towards white people isn't possible in imperial core nations because they are overwhelmingly white supremacist. Bigotry can in specific cases happen against white people but racism requires the backing of culture at large, bigotry is individualized while racism is systematic.
Same as if a white person would shout f*ck jews/muslims/whites: with an utter disrespect and disgust. If you allow them to be in that position, it's still a result of colonialism and supremacy, but in a more profound form.
Same as if a white person would shout f*ck jews/muslims/whites:
If you really think that POC (historically oppressed, almost always by white people) calling someone a cracker or saying they hate white people, is exactly the same as a white person (oppressors of basically everybody else for centuries) yelling hate at the groups white people have oppressed, I don't know how to help you. From a white person to a POC, it's an expression of oppression, an echoing of the white supremacist values that the USA or UK are built on. Cops still do racial profiling.
From a POC to a white person, it's them expressing their distaste for oblivious, historically ignorant clowns and racists. No white person's life is gonna be in danger because someone who isn't white said they hate em.
I can see how these situations are different from the historical standpoint. I can see why PoC express angst and frustration to white people. Cannot praise it, since I fail to see how it leads to liberation, but ok.
I can see how these situations are different from systematic standpoint. The racial profiling you have mentioned, the economic inferiority of black US population, and, of course, hate groups.
But from the interpersonal relationships, I just can't stand it. I am not ok with people around me who say "fuck white people". It's a pure cringe.
It doesn't have to "lead to liberation", christ. If people of colour wanna take the piss out of their oppressors after hundreds of years, who the fuck are you to stop them? Given how bad a hand they've been dealt by a white supremacist society, it should make you stop and think about why someone would be so angry at whitey. Relatedly, I ain't gonna stop calling people "cissies", because lmao.
Yes exactly, all of the historical racism(and intertwined imperialism) we're talking about still happens today, just by different means. We still live in a white supremacist society, sadly, even with the progress that the civil rights movement for example made.
YOU are pure cringe Who are you, from your position of privilege (i.e. being white) to dictate how those experiencing oppression at the hands of white people should behave? What kind of tone-policing bs is that???
Given how bad a hand they've been dealt by a white supremacist society, it should make you stop and think about why someone would be so angry at whitey.
TBH it sounds to me exactly like "These children's parents were beheaded, let them throw rocks to cars".
Yes exactly, all of the historical racism(and intertwined imperialism) we're talking about still happens today, just by different means. We still live in a white supremacist society, sadly, even with the progress that the civil rights movement for example made.
We do indeed. Let's remember that we agree at least on this topic.
YOU are pure cringe
Shame. I genuinely think that I'm missing something on this topic like I did when there was Trans / Black lives matter vs All lives matter.
You are. But we gave you concise and easy to digest answers as well as links to full blown literature if you need a more thorough look at the topic to understand it, which it seems like you do. Read Settlers.
Idk what the fuck you're talking about but, sure. Why are you people so intent on non-sequiturs? POC saying they hate white people is never going to hurt you as much as a rock is, though.
Yeah you must be, even though several people have laid it out in detail throughout this thread, like: You don't get to be a white person and tut-tut at POC for being angry at white people given all the shit white people have caused and are causing. POC are right to be mad, and hating white people is the expected outcome.
Like others said, stop buying into the idea that whiteness is more than a social construct. Idk start thinking of yourself in terms of nationality or ethnicity. That is if nothing else a good starting point for getting over any hangups
I agree with the sentiment -- there's no reason to be proud of being white -- but I can't believe "just don't be white!" pops up on here semi-regularly. That's just not an option for a lot of people, because you can't dictate how others perceive you. It's like telling someone who's 6'6" to not be tall.
Whiteness isn't simply the physical trait of having pale skin, in the way being tall is a physical trait. An entire social scaffolding has been built around the physical quality of pale skin, that denotes the absence of race, the presence of "normalcy", "purity", "superiority", and therefore a place at the top of a racial hierarchy.
But at the same time, whiteness is like the fucking Borg. In the US especially, the concept of whiteness assimilated a ton of different ethnic groups, robbed them of their language and culture, and left gringos like me with no culture to speak of, beyond getting run over by a Ford F250, while on your way to get a Big Mac.
And there's no real way to recover that cultural identity. Like, ok, I have Irish ancestry, but what does that really mean at this point? No one in my family has spoken Gaelic for generations and St Patrick's Day is just a reason for white people to get hammered. And in many ways, that's a horrendous tragedy, and a deep psychic wound in the minds of the settler population on this continent. There's a reason Americans love Genealogy. It's because they have no actual connection to the land they live on, so they scrape for some past, that the whiteness and colonialism which they benefit from, has also robbed from them.
That said, though I'm white, I'm also bi and trans. My queerness ties me to a history and a culture that's much more tangible then what your average straight, mayo, American has. So while I personally like to joke that "my ethnicity is removed", It's incredibly difficult to "not be white" in that socio-cultural sense. Because whiteness is so all consuming. There's no individual way to "stop being white", the only way forward is to abolish whiteness as a category.
Edit: Mods are erasing my ethnicity! I will not be silenced! /s
Agh my family actually succeeded at this supposedly "impossible" task so I legit have a lot of thoughts and opinions about the path towards white dissimilation and abolition and the form it might take, I just cannot find the right way to phrase it without getting misinterpreted aghhhh
I've written like four drafts or something for an effortpost about this but GOD WILLING if I can work out the kinks I will share it later today (GOD WILLING)
But yeah it's like, "how do we kill whiteness" feels like one of those topics where people here actually do tend to agree on a lot if not most of the basics, but people still just tend to be uncharitable (not maliciously ofc) with how they interpret others, and this causes conflicts to emerge basically out of thin air... I think that's what makes whiteness a thornier issue to write about than it really needs to be, because I feel like I just have to constantly assure readers that yes I have accounted for this-and-that Actually, and no I am not saying such-and-such In Fact — otherwise I get paranoid I'm gonna get anta-baka'd over things that I wasn't actually trying to say, blech
Edit: in fact the problem of misinterpretation I'm describing already happened in this very thread as I was writing this comment, and I hadn't even said anything other than "white dissimilation" and "my family succeeded"
Edit 2: in fact that person wasn't actually trying to misinterpret me but I assumed he was, ironically
I don't think the answer (for white people) to "race is a social construct" should be "go one-drop yourself into an ethnic history you've never experienced and are half making up on the spot." If my great-great-great grandma is from Spain but the last few generations of my family lived in Flyover USA, it'd be pretty weird for me to wake up one day and go around telling everyone I'm Spanish. Weirder still if that ancestor was from Catalonia and I try to say I'm personally affected by the Catalan independence movement.
A better response is to not actively identify with any race or ethnicity and try to do things that address the damage done by those concepts.
Sure, but if you fit other people's perceptions of a race well enough, they're going to treat you like they treat people of that race regardless of your thoughts on the matter. It's not a choice I can make.
Okay I'm pretty sure "just don't be white" is referring to the caste identity. Nobody expects you to stop having bleach skin, I don't think.
I will say though, it is kind of rich reading a white person's complaints about how they can't change people's perception of a race and will always be perceived as white. Like, hmmmm...
Okay I'm pretty sure "just don't be white" is referring to the caste identity.
How does this change what I said? I can agree with any analysis of whiteness put forward, but that will not change the way people perceive me. It's nonsensical advice.
it is kind of rich reading a white person's complaints
"This advice does not make sense" is not a complaint. If you tell me I can stop being poor if I tug on my bootstraps, I'm not complaining if I point out the world does not work that way.
What it means is: stop identifying with "white" as a cultural thing, because "white" is a label constructed by racist fuckers exclusively for the purpose of oppressing people by way of
You are litetally saying, "I'll never be perceived as anything but the most privileged group in racial terms", and that comes off as pretty tone deaf. But it's also totally missing the point I made above, about what "white" is as a concept and why everyone needs to stop identifying with it.
Various POC are still gonna call you "white" because I dunno, that's the label associated with their oppression. That's not for you to worry about though, you just need to quit identifying with it. That is what "not being white" means.
What it means is: stop identifying with "white" as a cultural thing
You're looking for disagreement where there is none. The first thing I said was:
I agree with the sentiment -- there's no reason to be proud of being white
I can agree race is a social construct, and I can choose not to think of myself in racial terms, but that does not have any material impact on the world. How other people classify me -- cops, banks, landlords, whoever -- will not change no matter what I personally think of race. And people treating each other differently based on perceptions of race is a major, material way the concept of race is used to harm people. If I'm not affecting that in the slightest, what is the use of "don't be white?"
Okay but if you agree with that then there's no problem?
Yes, that's true. You aren't gonna stop benefiting from a white supremacist society, Idk. Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know? That's all people are asking you to do with this. Nobody expects you to end racism single handedly, "don't be white" is about internal thought processes and being aware of how you benefit, I'm pretty sure that's all.
I mean, since being white gives you the benefit of the doubt from cops and stuff, you could make use of that to do something extremely funny
Because it's a disgusting antiquated caste identity with no real cultural content beyond domination and race hatred, so identifying with that nonsense is pretty cringe
Also you know, 500 years of white supremacist violence being constantly inflicted on practically every nation on the planet kinda sends a certain message
As a white (kinda), I still find it cringe. Could you elaborate why that's not?
we answer this in our FAQ
That's most informative, thanks. Still cringe tho
Aah yes. AS a White YOU find it cringe. The answer is its not about YOU.
tldr: We colonised and genocided much of the world, and most of the white people in the world now assume that we're richer because we're smarter, not richer because we stole everything. Throughout modern history, nearly all white progressives and leftists have taken the side of imperialism, because it benefits us materially. There's a handful of based white people in history, but they're few and far between.
long version: read Settlers
Edit: if a member of an oppressed group wants to say "fuck white people", the very least I can do is acknowledge all the crimes heaped upon them by us, and not debate bro them about reverse racism or something.
TBH this sounds almost like internalized racism, but the other way around. We're not our ancestors, but still we need to remember that we're prone to their mistakes.
Also this looks condescending
Even though I came from a working class family from the West, I still have a fuck of white privilege. Having to hear "fuck white ppl" like 2x a year barely comes close to what non-white people have faced.
DID COLONIALISM AND GENOCIDE NOT FUCKING HAPPEN?!?!?
Honestly, how would you like it phrased??? Oh please sir, care more about Palestine than your ego.
It is happening right now, but somehow we focus on past events and some abstract guilt
Super cool of you to reframe current and historical oppression as "some abstract guilt". I'm making a real effort to answer your question, but it's like you're making a bad faith effort to not engage with it but rather reframe everything to reaffirm your old beliefs.
No, the reason it's relevant is because white people still benefit overwhelmingly from the colonization that still happens. In addition, racism towards white people isn't possible in imperial core nations because they are overwhelmingly white supremacist. Bigotry can in specific cases happen against white people but racism requires the backing of culture at large, bigotry is individualized while racism is systematic.
If it's happening right now it's not a past event it's an ongoing event still in progress.
Same as if a white person would shout f*ck jews/muslims/whites: with an utter disrespect and disgust. If you allow them to be in that position, it's still a result of colonialism and supremacy, but in a more profound form.
I don't recall Jewish or Muslims committing pogroms and wars against us. What a weird response. This isn't going well for you.
If you really think that POC (historically oppressed, almost always by white people) calling someone a cracker or saying they hate white people, is exactly the same as a white person (oppressors of basically everybody else for centuries) yelling hate at the groups white people have oppressed, I don't know how to help you. From a white person to a POC, it's an expression of oppression, an echoing of the white supremacist values that the USA or UK are built on. Cops still do racial profiling.
From a POC to a white person, it's them expressing their distaste for oblivious, historically ignorant clowns and racists. No white person's life is gonna be in danger because someone who isn't white said they hate em.
Do you see the difference?
I can see how these situations are different from the historical standpoint. I can see why PoC express angst and frustration to white people. Cannot praise it, since I fail to see how it leads to liberation, but ok.
I can see how these situations are different from systematic standpoint. The racial profiling you have mentioned, the economic inferiority of black US population, and, of course, hate groups.
But from the interpersonal relationships, I just can't stand it. I am not ok with people around me who say "fuck white people". It's a pure cringe.
It doesn't have to "lead to liberation", christ. If people of colour wanna take the piss out of their oppressors after hundreds of years, who the fuck are you to stop them? Given how bad a hand they've been dealt by a white supremacist society, it should make you stop and think about why someone would be so angry at whitey. Relatedly, I ain't gonna stop calling people "cissies", because lmao.
Yes exactly, all of the historical racism(and intertwined imperialism) we're talking about still happens today, just by different means. We still live in a white supremacist society, sadly, even with the progress that the civil rights movement for example made.
YOU are pure cringe
Who are you, from your position of privilege (i.e. being white) to dictate how those experiencing oppression at the hands of white people should behave? What kind of tone-policing bs is that???
TBH it sounds to me exactly like "These children's parents were beheaded, let them throw rocks to cars".
We do indeed. Let's remember that we agree at least on this topic.
Shame. I genuinely think that I'm missing something on this topic like I did when there was Trans / Black lives matter vs All lives matter.
You are. But we gave you concise and easy to digest answers as well as links to full blown literature if you need a more thorough look at the topic to understand it, which it seems like you do. Read Settlers.
Idk what the fuck you're talking about but, sure. Why are you people so intent on non-sequiturs? POC saying they hate white people is never going to hurt you as much as a rock is, though.
Yeah you must be, even though several people have laid it out in detail throughout this thread, like: You don't get to be a white person and tut-tut at POC for being angry at white people given all the shit white people have caused and are causing. POC are right to be mad, and hating white people is the expected outcome.
Like others said, stop buying into the idea that whiteness is more than a social construct. Idk start thinking of yourself in terms of nationality or ethnicity. That is if nothing else a good starting point for getting over any hangups
Nope. I'm Russian
Russian to put out extremely bad takes
So Russian and Slav. Why not identify as those more than the arbitrary category of "white". I have to live with being Italian, I'd kill to be Russian
deleted by creator
this is cringe
don't be white, white is a racist US census statistic
I agree with the sentiment -- there's no reason to be proud of being white -- but I can't believe "just don't be white!" pops up on here semi-regularly. That's just not an option for a lot of people, because you can't dictate how others perceive you. It's like telling someone who's 6'6" to not be tall.
Whiteness isn't simply the physical trait of having pale skin, in the way being tall is a physical trait. An entire social scaffolding has been built around the physical quality of pale skin, that denotes the absence of race, the presence of "normalcy", "purity", "superiority", and therefore a place at the top of a racial hierarchy.
But at the same time, whiteness is like the fucking Borg. In the US especially, the concept of whiteness assimilated a ton of different ethnic groups, robbed them of their language and culture, and left gringos like me with no culture to speak of, beyond getting run over by a Ford F250, while on your way to get a Big Mac.
And there's no real way to recover that cultural identity. Like, ok, I have Irish ancestry, but what does that really mean at this point? No one in my family has spoken Gaelic for generations and St Patrick's Day is just a reason for white people to get hammered. And in many ways, that's a horrendous tragedy, and a deep psychic wound in the minds of the settler population on this continent. There's a reason Americans love Genealogy. It's because they have no actual connection to the land they live on, so they scrape for some past, that the whiteness and colonialism which they benefit from, has also robbed from them.
That said, though I'm white, I'm also bi and trans. My queerness ties me to a history and a culture that's much more tangible then what your average straight, mayo, American has. So while I personally like to joke that "my ethnicity is removed", It's incredibly difficult to "not be white" in that socio-cultural sense. Because whiteness is so all consuming. There's no individual way to "stop being white", the only way forward is to abolish whiteness as a category.
Edit: Mods are erasing my ethnicity! I will not be silenced! /s
Agh my family actually succeeded at this supposedly "impossible" task so I legit have a lot of thoughts and opinions about the path towards white dissimilation and abolition and the form it might take, I just cannot find the right way to phrase it without getting misinterpreted aghhhh
Well, if you can figure it out. I'd love to hear your thoughts, comrade
I've written like four drafts or something for an effortpost about this but GOD WILLING if I can work out the kinks I will share it later today (GOD WILLING)
But yeah it's like, "how do we kill whiteness" feels like one of those topics where people here actually do tend to agree on a lot if not most of the basics, but people still just tend to be uncharitable (not maliciously ofc) with how they interpret others, and this causes conflicts to emerge basically out of thin air... I think that's what makes whiteness a thornier issue to write about than it really needs to be, because I feel like I just have to constantly assure readers that yes I have accounted for this-and-that Actually, and no I am not saying such-and-such In Fact — otherwise I get paranoid I'm gonna get anta-baka'd over things that I wasn't actually trying to say, blech
Edit: in fact the problem of misinterpretation I'm describing already happened in this very thread as I was writing this comment, and I hadn't even said anything other than "white dissimilation" and "my family succeeded"
Edit 2: in fact that person wasn't actually trying to misinterpret me but I assumed he was, ironically
I don't think the answer (for white people) to "race is a social construct" should be "go one-drop yourself into an ethnic history you've never experienced and are half making up on the spot." If my great-great-great grandma is from Spain but the last few generations of my family lived in Flyover USA, it'd be pretty weird for me to wake up one day and go around telling everyone I'm Spanish. Weirder still if that ancestor was from Catalonia and I try to say I'm personally affected by the Catalan independence movement.
A better response is to not actively identify with any race or ethnicity and try to do things that address the damage done by those concepts.
Holy Hell I haven't even said my piece and I'm already having my beliefs assumed
Wasn't trying to do that; I'm speaking to what I've seen too many white people do.
Wait so I was actually assuming your beliefs, then, rather than the reverse... That's a bit ironic, sorry about that.
Ha no worries
It's still a skin colour, I just don't regard it as a cultural entity, much less a "racial" one
Sure, but if you fit other people's perceptions of a race well enough, they're going to treat you like they treat people of that race regardless of your thoughts on the matter. It's not a choice I can make.
Okay I'm pretty sure "just don't be white" is referring to the caste identity. Nobody expects you to stop having bleach skin, I don't think.
I will say though, it is kind of rich reading a white person's complaints about how they can't change people's perception of a race and will always be perceived as white. Like, hmmmm...
How does this change what I said? I can agree with any analysis of whiteness put forward, but that will not change the way people perceive me. It's nonsensical advice.
"This advice does not make sense" is not a complaint. If you tell me I can stop being poor if I tug on my bootstraps, I'm not complaining if I point out the world does not work that way.
What it means is: stop identifying with "white" as a cultural thing, because "white" is a label constructed by racist fuckers exclusively for the purpose of oppressing people by way of
You are litetally saying, "I'll never be perceived as anything but the most privileged group in racial terms", and that comes off as pretty tone deaf. But it's also totally missing the point I made above, about what "white" is as a concept and why everyone needs to stop identifying with it.
Various POC are still gonna call you "white" because I dunno, that's the label associated with their oppression. That's not for you to worry about though, you just need to quit identifying with it. That is what "not being white" means.
You're looking for disagreement where there is none. The first thing I said was:
I can agree race is a social construct, and I can choose not to think of myself in racial terms, but that does not have any material impact on the world. How other people classify me -- cops, banks, landlords, whoever -- will not change no matter what I personally think of race. And people treating each other differently based on perceptions of race is a major, material way the concept of race is used to harm people. If I'm not affecting that in the slightest, what is the use of "don't be white?"
Okay but if you agree with that then there's no problem?
Yes, that's true. You aren't gonna stop benefiting from a white supremacist society, Idk. Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know? That's all people are asking you to do with this. Nobody expects you to end racism single handedly, "don't be white" is about internal thought processes and being aware of how you benefit, I'm pretty sure that's all.
I mean, since being white gives you the benefit of the doubt from cops and stuff, you could make use of that to do something extremely funny
You're right, no problems here comrade
yes, that is unfortunately correct
Because it's a disgusting antiquated caste identity with no real cultural content beyond domination and race hatred, so identifying with that nonsense is pretty cringe
Also you know, 500 years of white supremacist violence being constantly inflicted on practically every nation on the planet kinda sends a certain message
Fiddy is responding to this on my behalf
Okay
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: