I'll start
This is embarrassing but I cried when SHillary lost to Trump.
As a black person who went through a huge internalized racism arc, when I ventured into leftist spaces that said stuff like "Fuck white people.", I got enraged and responded with something along the lines of "As a black person, that's totally fucked up! This is the opposite of what MLK promoted!'.
I got laughed at and called a "bootlicker", all while thinking I was some cool, grandiose, and righteous figure in this context.
Boy, do times change or what!?
i think you mentioned 4chan in another post and god it is so common to find POC trans people on 4chan that have whole ass settler colonies living in their heads. sometimes they reach out to me and even explaining basic trans positive stuff is mindblowing to them. 4chan needs to be fucking banned, its a hazard to all life
4chan needs to be fucking banned
How the fuck has it not happened already? Really feels like there has never actually been any attempt at all, not even an activist push or anything.
At this point, I just see 4chan as an incubation chamber for white nationalist stochastic terrorists. The feds aren't going to shut down a crucial component of domestic Gladio. From reading Aberration in the Heartland of the Real, someone like Timothy McVeigh perfectly matches the profile of a channer from his involvement in BBS boards to him obsessing over Star Trek to him having incel views to him just being a reactionary in general. It's truly remarkable how he's just a proto-channer.
Right sure but does that mean an attempt at banning it shouldn't be made? At this point it's so fundamentally known by literally everyone that such an attempt wouldn't be beneficial to it and further exposure of the system's failure to actually do anything worthwhile to stop fascism, not even the bare minimum.
While such an attempt might fail in the US there are definitely other countries where it might succeed as a result of the attempt.
Maybe it's just institutional inertia on the part of the feds. 4chan will disappear from the web when it proves to be detrimental to whatever the feds are trying to accomplish. At least, that's my guess anyways.
Fuck white people.
As a white (kinda), I still find it cringe. Could you elaborate why that's not?
Aah yes. AS a White YOU find it cringe. The answer is its not about YOU.
tldr: We colonised and genocided much of the world, and most of the white people in the world now assume that we're richer because we're smarter, not richer because we stole everything. Throughout modern history, nearly all white progressives and leftists have taken the side of imperialism, because it benefits us materially. There's a handful of based white people in history, but they're few and far between.
long version: read Settlers
Edit: if a member of an oppressed group wants to say "fuck white people", the very least I can do is acknowledge all the crimes heaped upon them by us, and not debate bro them about reverse racism or something.
TBH this sounds almost like internalized racism, but the other way around. We're not our ancestors, but still we need to remember that we're prone to their mistakes.
if a member of an oppressed group wants to say "fuck white people", the very least I can do is acknowledge all the crimes heaped upon them by us, and not debate bro them about reverse racism or something.
Also this looks condescending
Even though I came from a working class family from the West, I still have a fuck of white privilege. Having to hear "fuck white ppl" like 2x a year barely comes close to what non-white people have faced.
TBH this sounds almost like internalized racism
DID COLONIALISM AND GENOCIDE NOT FUCKING HAPPEN?!?!?
Also this looks condescending
Honestly, how would you like it phrased??? Oh please sir, care more about Palestine than your ego.
DID COLONIALISM AND GENOCIDE NOT FUCKING HAPPEN?!?!?
It is happening right now, but somehow we focus on past events and some abstract guilt
some abstract guilt
Super cool of you to reframe current and historical oppression as "some abstract guilt". I'm making a real effort to answer your question, but it's like you're making a bad faith effort to not engage with it but rather reframe everything to reaffirm your old beliefs.
No, the reason it's relevant is because white people still benefit overwhelmingly from the colonization that still happens. In addition, racism towards white people isn't possible in imperial core nations because they are overwhelmingly white supremacist. Bigotry can in specific cases happen against white people but racism requires the backing of culture at large, bigotry is individualized while racism is systematic.
If it's happening right now it's not a past event it's an ongoing event still in progress.
Honestly, how would you like it phrased???
Same as if a white person would shout f*ck jews/muslims/whites: with an utter disrespect and disgust. If you allow them to be in that position, it's still a result of colonialism and supremacy, but in a more profound form.
I don't recall Jewish or Muslims committing pogroms and wars against us. What a weird response. This isn't going well for you.
Same as if a white person would shout f*ck jews/muslims/whites:
If you really think that POC (historically oppressed, almost always by white people) calling someone a cracker or saying they hate white people, is exactly the same as a white person (oppressors of basically everybody else for centuries) yelling hate at the groups white people have oppressed, I don't know how to help you. From a white person to a POC, it's an expression of oppression, an echoing of the white supremacist values that the USA or UK are built on. Cops still do racial profiling.
From a POC to a white person, it's them expressing their distaste for oblivious, historically ignorant clowns and racists. No white person's life is gonna be in danger because someone who isn't white said they hate em.
Do you see the difference?
I can see how these situations are different from the historical standpoint. I can see why PoC express angst and frustration to white people. Cannot praise it, since I fail to see how it leads to liberation, but ok.
I can see how these situations are different from systematic standpoint. The racial profiling you have mentioned, the economic inferiority of black US population, and, of course, hate groups.
But from the interpersonal relationships, I just can't stand it. I am not ok with people around me who say "fuck white people". It's a pure cringe.
It doesn't have to "lead to liberation", christ. If people of colour wanna take the piss out of their oppressors after hundreds of years, who the fuck are you to stop them? Given how bad a hand they've been dealt by a white supremacist society, it should make you stop and think about why someone would be so angry at whitey. Relatedly, I ain't gonna stop calling people "cissies", because lmao.
Yes exactly, all of the historical racism(and intertwined imperialism) we're talking about still happens today, just by different means. We still live in a white supremacist society, sadly, even with the progress that the civil rights movement for example made.
YOU are pure cringe
Who are you, from your position of privilege (i.e. being white) to dictate how those experiencing oppression at the hands of white people should behave? What kind of tone-policing bs is that???Given how bad a hand they've been dealt by a white supremacist society, it should make you stop and think about why someone would be so angry at whitey.
TBH it sounds to me exactly like "These children's parents were beheaded, let them throw rocks to cars".
Yes exactly, all of the historical racism(and intertwined imperialism) we're talking about still happens today, just by different means. We still live in a white supremacist society, sadly, even with the progress that the civil rights movement for example made.
We do indeed. Let's remember that we agree at least on this topic.
YOU are pure cringe
Shame. I genuinely think that I'm missing something on this topic like I did when there was Trans / Black lives matter vs All lives matter.
You are. But we gave you concise and easy to digest answers as well as links to full blown literature if you need a more thorough look at the topic to understand it, which it seems like you do. Read Settlers.
Idk what the fuck you're talking about but, sure. Why are you people so intent on non-sequiturs? POC saying they hate white people is never going to hurt you as much as a rock is, though.
Yeah you must be, even though several people have laid it out in detail throughout this thread, like: You don't get to be a white person and tut-tut at POC for being angry at white people given all the shit white people have caused and are causing. POC are right to be mad, and hating white people is the expected outcome.
Like others said, stop buying into the idea that whiteness is more than a social construct. Idk start thinking of yourself in terms of nationality or ethnicity. That is if nothing else a good starting point for getting over any hangups
So Russian and Slav. Why not identify as those more than the arbitrary category of "white". I have to live with being Italian, I'd kill to be Russian
I agree with the sentiment -- there's no reason to be proud of being white -- but I can't believe "just don't be white!" pops up on here semi-regularly. That's just not an option for a lot of people, because you can't dictate how others perceive you. It's like telling someone who's 6'6" to not be tall.
Whiteness isn't simply the physical trait of having pale skin, in the way being tall is a physical trait. An entire social scaffolding has been built around the physical quality of pale skin, that denotes the absence of race, the presence of "normalcy", "purity", "superiority", and therefore a place at the top of a racial hierarchy.
But at the same time, whiteness is like the fucking Borg. In the US especially, the concept of whiteness assimilated a ton of different ethnic groups, robbed them of their language and culture, and left gringos like me with no culture to speak of, beyond getting run over by a Ford F250, while on your way to get a Big Mac.
And there's no real way to recover that cultural identity. Like, ok, I have Irish ancestry, but what does that really mean at this point? No one in my family has spoken Gaelic for generations and St Patrick's Day is just a reason for white people to get hammered. And in many ways, that's a horrendous tragedy, and a deep psychic wound in the minds of the settler population on this continent. There's a reason Americans love Genealogy. It's because they have no actual connection to the land they live on, so they scrape for some past, that the whiteness and colonialism which they benefit from, has also robbed from them.
That said, though I'm white, I'm also bi and trans. My queerness ties me to a history and a culture that's much more tangible then what your average straight, mayo, American has. So while I personally like to joke that "my ethnicity is removed", It's incredibly difficult to "not be white" in that socio-cultural sense. Because whiteness is so all consuming. There's no individual way to "stop being white", the only way forward is to abolish whiteness as a category.
Edit: Mods are erasing my ethnicity! I will not be silenced! /s
Agh my family actually succeeded at this supposedly "impossible" task so I legit have a lot of thoughts and opinions about the path towards white dissimilation and abolition and the form it might take, I just cannot find the right way to phrase it without getting misinterpreted aghhhh
Well, if you can figure it out. I'd love to hear your thoughts, comrade
I've written like four drafts or something for an effortpost about this but GOD WILLING if I can work out the kinks I will share it later today (GOD WILLING)
But yeah it's like, "how do we kill whiteness" feels like one of those topics where people here actually do tend to agree on a lot if not most of the basics, but people still just tend to be uncharitable (not maliciously ofc) with how they interpret others, and this causes conflicts to emerge basically out of thin air... I think that's what makes whiteness a thornier issue to write about than it really needs to be, because I feel like I just have to constantly assure readers that yes I have accounted for this-and-that Actually, and no I am not saying such-and-such In Fact — otherwise I get paranoid I'm gonna get anta-baka'd over things that I wasn't actually trying to say, blech
Edit: in fact the problem of misinterpretation I'm describing already happened in this very thread as I was writing this comment, and I hadn't even said anything other than "white dissimilation" and "my family succeeded"
Edit 2: in fact that person wasn't actually trying to misinterpret me but I assumed he was, ironically
I don't think the answer (for white people) to "race is a social construct" should be "go one-drop yourself into an ethnic history you've never experienced and are half making up on the spot." If my great-great-great grandma is from Spain but the last few generations of my family lived in Flyover USA, it'd be pretty weird for me to wake up one day and go around telling everyone I'm Spanish. Weirder still if that ancestor was from Catalonia and I try to say I'm personally affected by the Catalan independence movement.
A better response is to not actively identify with any race or ethnicity and try to do things that address the damage done by those concepts.
Holy Hell I haven't even said my piece and I'm already having my beliefs assumed
Wasn't trying to do that; I'm speaking to what I've seen too many white people do.
Wait so I was actually assuming your beliefs, then, rather than the reverse... That's a bit ironic, sorry about that.
It's still a skin colour, I just don't regard it as a cultural entity, much less a "racial" one
Sure, but if you fit other people's perceptions of a race well enough, they're going to treat you like they treat people of that race regardless of your thoughts on the matter. It's not a choice I can make.
Okay I'm pretty sure "just don't be white" is referring to the caste identity. Nobody expects you to stop having bleach skin, I don't think.
I will say though, it is kind of rich reading a white person's complaints about how they can't change people's perception of a race and will always be perceived as white. Like, hmmmm...
Okay I'm pretty sure "just don't be white" is referring to the caste identity.
How does this change what I said? I can agree with any analysis of whiteness put forward, but that will not change the way people perceive me. It's nonsensical advice.
it is kind of rich reading a white person's complaints
"This advice does not make sense" is not a complaint. If you tell me I can stop being poor if I tug on my bootstraps, I'm not complaining if I point out the world does not work that way.
What it means is: stop identifying with "white" as a cultural thing, because "white" is a label constructed by racist fuckers exclusively for the purpose of oppressing people by way of
You are litetally saying, "I'll never be perceived as anything but the most privileged group in racial terms", and that comes off as pretty tone deaf. But it's also totally missing the point I made above, about what "white" is as a concept and why everyone needs to stop identifying with it.
Various POC are still gonna call you "white" because I dunno, that's the label associated with their oppression. That's not for you to worry about though, you just need to quit identifying with it. That is what "not being white" means.
What it means is: stop identifying with "white" as a cultural thing
You're looking for disagreement where there is none. The first thing I said was:
I agree with the sentiment -- there's no reason to be proud of being white
I can agree race is a social construct, and I can choose not to think of myself in racial terms, but that does not have any material impact on the world. How other people classify me -- cops, banks, landlords, whoever -- will not change no matter what I personally think of race. And people treating each other differently based on perceptions of race is a major, material way the concept of race is used to harm people. If I'm not affecting that in the slightest, what is the use of "don't be white?"
Okay but if you agree with that then there's no problem?
Yes, that's true. You aren't gonna stop benefiting from a white supremacist society, Idk. Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know? That's all people are asking you to do with this. Nobody expects you to end racism single handedly, "don't be white" is about internal thought processes and being aware of how you benefit, I'm pretty sure that's all.
I mean, since being white gives you the benefit of the doubt from cops and stuff, you could make use of that to do something extremely funny
You're right, no problems here comrade
Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know?
Because it's a disgusting antiquated caste identity with no real cultural content beyond domination and race hatred, so identifying with that nonsense is pretty cringe
Also you know, 500 years of white supremacist violence being constantly inflicted on practically every nation on the planet kinda sends a certain message
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Thank god this isn't an internalized racism post...I have a few....terrible stories. But a lot of my early reddit days were "As a Black person" comments 🤢
I used to get upset at white people for that too. Because a white person saying "fuck {a particular race}" reminded me of them doing it about my race in a post-9/11 world and it was uncomfortable. It actually took more educated white leftists to explain why the power dynamics make "fuck white people" vastly different from their "fuck minorities" stance.
The libs inability to break the rules to stopbTrump turned me from a well meaning lib into a ancom.
Watching the rat fucking of Bernie in real time followed by the pandemic response turned me into an ML that wonders if the Soviets shouldn't have stopped at Berlin.
My most lib moment before all of this was agreeing with someone that Snowden was bad because he endangered America.
Disclaimer: I've not kept up with Assange goings on so if there's any dirty laundry there, I'm not aware of it. The below is purely about the WikiLeaks stuff.
Seconding the Snowden reaction sadly, except it was Julian Assange... I actually have a memory of that that makes me cringe incredibly hard. I was at a birthday party at a friend's house and someone there was so drunk that they went full mask off and were openly sieg heiling and saying Nazi shit (really unpleasant 4chan loser type who my friends subsequently downplayed the actions of, but that's another story)...
Anyway, I got into a number of political arguments with them and the topic of Assange came up and I said something along the lines of: "Why shouldn't he be arrested? He's a criminal." The Nazi guy just looked so frustrated and said "aaaaargh, mainstream media!!!"
It was only a few years later that I realised, oh shit, he was right about that one. I was just parroting what the news was saying about Assange. I was so lib that I allowed a Nazi to have a more informed position than me. That's a hard one to live down.
Watching the rat fucking of Bernie in real time followed by the pandemic response turned me into an ML that wonders if the Soviets shouldn't have stopped at Berlin.
oh wow! me too!
[reads title]
[thinks about the question for a minute, remembers something] oh... god...
[remembers something else] oh God
[something else] Oh God!
[something else] Oh GOD!
[something else] OH GOD
[something else] OH GOD
[retreats into corner sucking my thumb to prevent my soul from leaving my body] Nope! Nope! Don't wanna think about it! Dooon't waaaannaaa!!!
Damn this thread is really making me realize how much further along I am in the jokerfication process than even most of the sickos on this site.
When she lost I just cackled madly. That was the fucking funniest thing that could ever happen in that moment.
I was convinced Trump was going to win from the second I heard he was running lol
In December 2015 I had already called the nomination for him, and I was the only person I knew who thought that was even remotely possible. Still never thought he'd win the general though.
Though I was definitely a lib I absolutely did laugh at Hilldawg losing lol
When she lost I just cackled madly. That was the fucking funniest thing that could ever happen in that moment.
It was definitely an "I'm not happy he won, but I'm really glad she lost" moment for me.
I'd heard she did some really heavy drinking after she lost, which is why she didn't give a concession speech that night. I've never heard it either confirmed or debunked though.
I watched the election results live on the Alex Jones youtube stream because
. Was hoping for over the top rage, got him lighting up a cigar.
God this is embarrassing.
I was a high school senior in 2003. I was taking an English class at the local community college. I got into a long argument with a student in that English class.
They opposed the war in Iraq. I maintained that George W Bush could not possibly be lying about weapons of mass destruction because it would guarantee a loss in his reelection campaign in 2004. I agreed that the evidence presented for weapons of mass destruction was not convincing, but I maintained that no president could possibly lie to start a war of convenience and still win re-election. I believed wholeheartedly that there was evidence that had not been made public that would justify our aggression in Iraq. The idea of a president lying to start a war was so incredibly alien I refused to accept it. I refused to believe that our Democratic system would reward a president who lied like that with another term, especially after the shady way he was elected in 2000.
I learned my lesson eventually. By mid '04 I realized how stupid I had been. When Bush won reelection, what little faith I had in this nation and it's institutions, finally evaporated.
When i was in preschool i voted for john mccain in a mock election because his name reminded me of candy canes
A candy cane would also crash an A-4 attack aircraft, so that's an easy mistake to make.
.....ok but why were they having preschoolers vote in mock elections?
To teach the importance of participatory democracy, and how it is completely unassailable and the only reasonable way to impart change!
Seriously, to brainwash kids into not thinking about anything else besides voting vis a vis politics
Like, this is a thing that you'd do for middle school civics. Preschoolers can hardly read.
Better to start when they can't critically think. Ingraining it young means it doesn't get questioned the same as doing so later
Indoctrination, same reason we make all children say a fascist oath of allegiance every morning
I was in a private christian school that also functioned as a church... it was weird
I voted for Bush when I was five because it was the only name on the ballot I could read. I've been trying to repent ever since.
More serious answer: I joined the Marines when I was a liberal, and probably said some shit like "they do some bad stuff but they do more good than bad" when I did. If it makes it any better I was an absolutely terrible troop, and probably cost the US more money than I provided back in labor, lmao.
Undermining Western imperialism by engaging in an increasingly absurd series of pratfalls while Yackety Sax plays in the background
o7
you cost them money and scammed an education in gun usage/weapons operation
have we finally found the only good troop?
There's no possible way he was more buffoonish and costly than young John McCain
For like an entire semester after taking the intro microeconomics class at my university I definitely believed that abolishing the minimum wage would be good for everybody because something something the point on the curve I don't even remember, it was dumb as hell. I remember explaining this theory to a girl I liked and she swung her purse at me lmfao
tfw the Long-legged Socialist^tm won't let me explain Basic Economics^tm
I was super into Russia gate for a hot minute. The thing that finally busted me out of it was when someone finally pointed out to me: "If you think Russia can use platforms like Facebook to influence Elections to that extent....just what kind of influence do you think that Facebook and all these companies have themselves?" Once you start asking those questions it changes your perspective on things pretty quick.
Ooh, that’s a really good way of phrasing it. I also started wondering why Europe doesn’t have any large social media companies of their own, and instead rely on American companies like Facebook.
My biggest and continued lib moment is still liking 1984 as a book
No actually, my biggest lib moment that I'm still very ashamed of was arguing with a black guy like 5 or 6 years ago that racism didn't really exist in the UK anymore
Forgive me for posting the same comment twice, but since I just was talking about 1984 in this thread, I'll say here as well that I don't think you should be ashamed for enjoying multiple reads of it. I harp on how bad the writing was, but honestly it was... passable. But more importantly, I would argue that that book really did capture some important concepts and feelings and fears that were floating around. It's just that it was written by a hardcore liberal at heart who just had to fucking blame communism instead of taking the accurate path and blaming capitalism and imperialism. Anyway... what I just posted in another comment:
It's not even that 1984 was a terrible book. It is rather poorly written by an author who was kinda a shit writer, but the dude did capture a certain important and lasting zeitgeist. He did identify an undercurrent of fear, a very valid fear, that permeated culture. The problem was that he misidentified the direction where the fear was coming from, the systems it was actually bubbling up from were the capitalist systems. But commies were both easy and profitable to make the enemies. The source was the society he actually knew better and mostly lived in, but he had witnessed other systems and wanted to project all the negativity onto the socialist systems that, again, benefited him to badmouth. His book could have been still a poorly written but interestingly prescient warning of capitalism, what it was what it was becoming (and what it is), and some of the extremes trends towards... That's what could have been if he had correctly attributed the dystopian elements as being rooted in capitalism instead of communism. Also, even thought he may not have been a great writer in general, he was good with using phrases that fit well in the milieu at the time and continue to. Like "thought police" and "Doublethink" and "Newspeak" and "memory hole." "Big Brother is watching." "We've always been at war with East Oceania." Bunch of others. There is a reason that shit stuck around, reason that goes beyond just the fact that the capitalists blew it up and made it popular, this otherwise mediocre book they held up for its usefulness in propaganda as some great bulwark against the terrors of communism. Really a tragedy that Orwell was a fucking rat-narc liberal coward.
im going to die on the hill that even though 1984 is anticommunist and the plot sort of meanders around the place, i still think on the level of the individual sentences its really well written and Orwell was very good at conveying the emotions he wanted too without ever getting too flowery with it like some writers do. I'm not going to hold up 1984 next to like dracula or anything but its a decently written book and i think hexbear posters have a sort of kneejerk reaction to overly shit on it because the worst possible people like it for all the wrong reasons.
Actually, I will die by your side on that hill, or at least put in a good effort before retreating. The main reason I was repeating how the writing was poor is because the book gets held up as like this literary masterpiece since it's taught in schools and is on every single list of "books you must read before you die." Of course the reason it's taught in school is largely about propaganda, not literary genius, but the people who love it will talk about it like it's barely a step down from Shakespeare, even though a lot of the writing is objectively cringe. Like I just read the hero's opening description as having "ruggedly handsome features." But I agree, it's really good at what it does well. I think in most cases and in most spaces, it should be shit on and taken down a peg because it doesn't deserve its common position as being this great masterpiece, but the other side of that coin is that it's an entertaining and effective book, certainly not trash simply by virtue of how it gets used to serve a reactionary agenda.
I’ve read and enjoyed 1984 two or three times. I read Animal Farm, Down and Out in Paris and London, Homage to Catalonia (about half of it), Burmese Days, plus a book of his essays, his writing advice, etc. Orwell sucks but I agree with the other commenter here saying that there is just something about 1984. I don’t know. I took another look at Brave New World recently and thought that it was just eugenicist crap. I haven’t looked at 1984 in at least ten years so maybe my opinion would change if I did.
I argued that obama was a leftist and called stalin a state capitalist
Before Oct 7 it was really hard to find like, any info on the genocide in Gaza fron Google. I'd punch "Israel-Palestine conflict" in, and just get a bunch of fucking ADL links and shit about how it's Israel's birthright or whatever the hell. Bereft of other sources, being pre-Hexbear, I just mentally threw my hands up and 1:1 spouted the "It's so complicated! Thousands of years of history!" line. Their stupid propaganda working flawlessly, then.
Oh yeah also, for a year or so I was really into the "only two genders" shit, which was a combination of my browsing 4chan and my girlfriend at the time being really into Internet Aristocrat and Sargon of Akkad. To be fair I was like 16, damn am I glad I stopped that shit before adulthood.
Being a massive transphobe ~2016, a coupla months later and I ran into a transwoman at pride, way more patient than she needed to be, not only shut my bigoted ass down but also helped me to realise I was an egg.
A lot of trans people report this. A bunch of vocal bigots are victims of patriarchy performing loudly while harbouring inner questions they've never addressed. It's like the bigotry is a shield from what lies beneath.
