That song is all about how the war was bad because it was working class people fighting and dying there, and not the sons of the rich and powerful. That's a great summation of the "pop" anti-war movement at the time: the war is bad because we're getting drafted. Very little or nothing about "oh hey this war is bad because we are committing tons of war crimes and atrocities at damn near the same level as the SS". Or even "hey maybe we have no business at all stopping a communist movement in another country when that's what their people want". Nope, all about US and how the war impact AMERICANS. And then when the war ended it was retroactively considered "bad" because we lost and because it made the veterans sad. God boomers suck.
Of course at the time there we plenty of folks who were anti-war based on solid principles. But what do you know, they happened to be leftists like the Black Panthers. Just another example of the left holding the torch for what is right while the rest of the country acts like fucking depraved assholes.
Edit: listening to the latest Chapo episode now, Matt just reminded me, once the draft went away the anti-war movement dried up.
Mediocre take. People got drafted for WWII as well, they just didn't take issue with it cause they were fighting literal Nazis. I don't think protest music would've become so popular if most people ever actually believed the Vietnam war was worth fighting in.
Also starting your struggle post with a sentence about how the song correctly points out class issues doesn't really help your pointThere is no solution. You are looking at the wrong working class. Understanding settlercolonialism will lead you to the correct answer. Read settlers
No, but ideological reasons were sold to the ground troops so they believed they were actually fighting good vs evil.
Americans didn’t fight WWII for ideological reasons
Imperialism is an ideology.
Was the United States truly isolationist in the second quarter of the 20th Century though? Their imperial project never really stopped. Seems like a conflict with Imperial Japan over dominance of the pacific and east Asia was inevitable. I’ve also seen it put forward that the cessation of American trade with Japan was essentially to force the Japanese into firing the first shot for internal US political/propaganda purposes.
The song itself I think is correct in pointing out the class issues with the war (and really, most wars). My issue is that it seems like, whether we're talking in 2020 or the 1960s, the actual suffering of the Vietnamese people is at best, a tertiary concern regarding the war. I don't doubt that many/most people figured the war wasn't worth fighting for. But I don't think that's at all the same as saying this war is bad because we're genociding a country. It keeps the focus on America when really I think the focus should be on Vietnam and what they had to endure.
Yeah I can't really listen to Credence because it just reminds me of dopey Hollywood Americana
This song should balance things out for you. Creedence shitting on libs for not being willing to do the real hard work necessary for change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Look_Now_(It_Ain%27t_You_or_Me)
I dig it, thanks! I end up at a lot of hippie concerts but I have a pretty low threshold for most wooks these days, mostly for the reasons it seems like this song is outlining.
I don't have a problem with credence at all, just got tired of hearing the same one or two songs used in war movies. Just another band whose music has been co-opted to the point its meaning is lost on most listeners.
Some to most, sure, but that's not what were talking about. Were talking about the antiwar movement.
The antiwar movement surrounding Iraq was about NOBODY (American or Iraqi) dying for oil.
I don't dispute Americans care about their soldiers dying.
Americans might claim to care about civilians dying, but lack of mass action suggests they don't care all that much, especially if it's done by drone or bombing campaign where US personnel are not at significant risk.
We're you alive in 2003? Even though it wasn't covered by MSM the protests in the lead up to Iraq were massive.
So you're saying one's material conditions usually have more of an effect on their beliefs than basic human empathy?
I would add that the sheer length of the war was bound to eventually exhaust the anti-war movement. I'm sure the draft ending was a factor, but a lot of people also just got tired of beating their heads against the wall, and didn't have any obvious choices for other strategies. Feeling useless eventually killed the anti-Iraq war movement too. People blame Obama's election, but I felt like the movement was pretty dead long before that.
WW1 antiwar songs had a lot more bite. Even the succdem ones.
"Ten million soldiers off to war who may never come home again
Ten million mothers hearts must break for the ones who died in vain
Head bowed down in sorrow, in her lonely years
I heard a mother struggle through her tears
" I didn't raise my boy to be a soldier
I brought him up to be my pride and joy
Who dares to place a musket on his shoulder
To shoot some other mother's darling boy?!""
It's a poem and not a song, but Wilfred Owen's "Dulce et Decorum Est" never gets old to me. Every time I read it, it hits just as hard.
8.8 percent died and 13.4 percent of Males wounded between ages 18 and 55.
More importantly the upper class was more affected (due to the whole "Eton spirit" thing. They lost over 20% of their alumni.) By the end of 1915 800 nobles were dead, and there were only about 3000 to begin with. 24 peers died, and 12 MPs who were heirs.
Lesson: hurt the upper and upper-middle classes and watch the sudden outpouring of humanity.
Oh yeah, absolutely. Wages were up, people were beginning to not die of TB, Labour parties were getting power, and the unions were making progress on workers rights.
The suffering of The Great War utterly murdered a sort of utopian Aristo-Fabian alliance that was developing in England and a good chunk of Europe against capitalism. (Though Russia and Germany were probably too far gone, maybe not AH though.) WW1 and the flu basically ended the upper agrarian classes.
I'm more talking about the high art and the cultural superstructure. I can't imagine Lord of the Rings without WW1.
I don't simp aristos, they were monsters. But when they went down they went bravely and not without an admirable trait here or there. Cant say that about today.
Can you imagine Jeff Bezos dying with a sword in hand? Writing an art song about the passing of their world?
How did we get to these pissants being rulers of the world? These are our grand fucking foes!?
Ivor Gurney's art songs often touch on his PTSD and war experience and they're haunting
The best, popular rock song against the vietnam war that doesn't only care about the americans is "2+2=?" by the bob seger system.
"I don't want to kill nobody" "It's the rules not the soldier/that I find the real enemy"
War pigs would be #1, but they say it's a general anti-war song, not one specifically about the vietnam war.
I've been forced to conclude that there was no 70s anti-war movement in America. It was merely an anti-draft movement.
There was a shit ton of propaganda covering up the conditions on the ground, for one thing. For another, not everyone has empathy towards people halfway around the world, and making a point about how the war harmed Americans is probably going to be more persuasive to Americans because of that broader appeal. Even the most selfish, cold-hearted person cares about themselves getting screwed over. I don't really get the point of hating on the "troops sad" line, especially when talking about Vietnam where a draft was in place and the troops were themselves victims (as well as perpetrators, obviously). Just seems like some kind of "edgier than thou" BS if you ask me. "How dare you make an anti-war song that has broad appeal!"
This is great give me MORE like this. Doesn't have to be Vietnam, I just love this shameless communism and the conversation between proletariat and peasantry to unite them.
That's the only one I know that has an English translation unfortunately. The rest are in Vietnamese. I translated a small funny part here.
This song has some trollish lyrics guaranteed to trigger liberals both left and right.
At 0:39
"Oh the liberation soldiers
You won the battle west of Khe Sanh
Tà Cơn Base went up in flames that day
(On) Đồng Chi Hill American corpses piled up
There, look! Those one, two, three, four, five, six thousand American marine cunts
They got captured up in the jungle
Oh liberation soldiers
You guys fight so well woooo"
Then in the later choruses, it changed from "got captured" to "left their corpses". All to an upbeat tune. To my knowledge, this is the only song that trolls marines so hard and directly.
