Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we’re strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we’re sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.
First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.
If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.
Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.
obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.
four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.
cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.
trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.
I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that – if you decide you want to – you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.
In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.
They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.
If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.
Absolutely this. It is clear that every president since (and obviously including) Reagan has been a proponent of the same Neoliberal dismantling of the public sphere. I used to think our only chance was for the Republican party to become untenable, but that isn't going to happen with the way rural states are disproportionately represented. The Democrat party must become untenable when running the same old shit, it is the only way to get them to change. I'm not sold on electoralism, direct action is clearly working better, but you can't argue that motherfucking Biden, a literal segregationist and author of the 1994 crime bill (which he still supports) is any type of real harm reduction.
edit: I also love that Trump destroys our international reputation, hurting the US hegemony more than anything I could ever have imagined.
when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons
Big difference between doing that in Iraq and doing it in Oregon. Legally it's an entirely different world, and it's similarly night-and-day in terms of media coverage.
helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street
The local police are generally who's cracking skulls, and the president doesn't control the local police. Big difference between the NYPD -- who Obama had zero control over -- breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that's answerable to him.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth. Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
Big difference between the NYPD – who Obama had zero control over – breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that’s answerable to him.
Big difference between 500 people sitting on blankets, vs. police cars being overturned in a dozen cities and people wheeling out guillotines, too. Hence the bigger authoritarian response. The billionaires are getting more nervous, and the president does what the billionaires want.
If you think Biden wouldn't do exactly what Trump did if he faced the same set of circumstances, you are Charlie Brown running 90 MPH at a football.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth.
Oh yeah, nope, no reason whatsoever to believe Biden will throw people into unmarked vans... except for the fact that Biden was the VP under a president who literally broke the Constitution and infringed upon civil rights daily, and walked away after 8 years completely clean, with people going "he never had a scandal except a tan suit".
Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
You have now devolved into right wing talking points to defend Biden. It's ok, he'll just strongarm and arrest the ones that deserve it!!
Highlighting the difference between a small-c conservative and a fascist is not a right-wing talking point. You're not even bothering to read what I'm writing in good faith, so I'm not going to bother with the rest of your nonsense.
No denial about that. But the only reason Trump didn't write the bill is because he wasn't a Senator (and because he's an idiot). He literally wanted to bring bad the death penalty after CP5.
Im not voting Biden, but implying hes worse than Trump shows how much of a white privileged prick you are..... And that you know 3 Black folks maximum.
If you are white, you have no right to downvote this comment.
if Biden wins, white libs think black american's are fine again. Never mind that most of the extrajudicial murders happened in dem controlled areas. The DNC has to change to help PoCs, and they damn sure aren't going to change by being rewarded for being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.
R u Black? If not, don't speak for what most Black folk. We already know how much this country is disdainful towards up. But your white ass CANT comprehend the relief if Biden wins, despite us knowing hes problematic.
Saying Biden is worse than Trump dismisses the current situation we, and other POCs, face.
Being Black doesn't make you somehow more aware of the effects of Neoliberalism on POC communities, just being a critical thinker who looks at context. I haven't spoken for Black folk, just the truth. What fucking relief is the segregationist going to bring? Why should the Dems be rewarded for running a candidate who FUCKING CRITICIZED George H. W. Bush's war on drugs for NOT BEING EXTREME ENOUGH?
Biden and Clinton directly attacked black communities with the 1994 Crime Bill
Clinton set up the 2008 financial crisis by repealing Glass-Steagall act.
Obama chose to bail out industry instead of POC communities.
THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT YOUR ALLIES ANY MORE THAN THE REPUBLICANS.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.
I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.
First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.
If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.
Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.
Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.
obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.
four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.
cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.
trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.
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I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.
deleted by creator
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?
Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.
In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.
They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.
If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.
Absolutely this. It is clear that every president since (and obviously including) Reagan has been a proponent of the same Neoliberal dismantling of the public sphere. I used to think our only chance was for the Republican party to become untenable, but that isn't going to happen with the way rural states are disproportionately represented. The Democrat party must become untenable when running the same old shit, it is the only way to get them to change. I'm not sold on electoralism, direct action is clearly working better, but you can't argue that motherfucking Biden, a literal segregationist and author of the 1994 crime bill (which he still supports) is any type of real harm reduction.
edit: I also love that Trump destroys our international reputation, hurting the US hegemony more than anything I could ever have imagined.
Big difference between doing that in Iraq and doing it in Oregon. Legally it's an entirely different world, and it's similarly night-and-day in terms of media coverage.
The local police are generally who's cracking skulls, and the president doesn't control the local police. Big difference between the NYPD -- who Obama had zero control over -- breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that's answerable to him.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth. Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
Ummmmm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
Big difference between 500 people sitting on blankets, vs. police cars being overturned in a dozen cities and people wheeling out guillotines, too. Hence the bigger authoritarian response. The billionaires are getting more nervous, and the president does what the billionaires want.
If you think Biden wouldn't do exactly what Trump did if he faced the same set of circumstances, you are Charlie Brown running 90 MPH at a football.
Oh yeah, nope, no reason whatsoever to believe Biden will throw people into unmarked vans... except for the fact that Biden was the VP under a president who literally broke the Constitution and infringed upon civil rights daily, and walked away after 8 years completely clean, with people going "he never had a scandal except a tan suit".
You have now devolved into right wing talking points to defend Biden. It's ok, he'll just strongarm and arrest the ones that deserve it!!
Highlighting the difference between a small-c conservative and a fascist is not a right-wing talking point. You're not even bothering to read what I'm writing in good faith, so I'm not going to bother with the rest of your nonsense.
Yeah, the only argument for this is if you believe in accelerationism.
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Biden is a segregationist that wrote the 1994 Crime Bill he still supports. He's not good for PoCs, he's absolutely a racist.
No denial about that. But the only reason Trump didn't write the bill is because he wasn't a Senator (and because he's an idiot). He literally wanted to bring bad the death penalty after CP5.
Im not voting Biden, but implying hes worse than Trump shows how much of a white privileged prick you are..... And that you know 3 Black folks maximum.
If you are white, you have no right to downvote this comment.
if Biden wins, white libs think black american's are fine again. Never mind that most of the extrajudicial murders happened in dem controlled areas. The DNC has to change to help PoCs, and they damn sure aren't going to change by being rewarded for being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.
R u Black? If not, don't speak for what most Black folk. We already know how much this country is disdainful towards up. But your white ass CANT comprehend the relief if Biden wins, despite us knowing hes problematic.
Saying Biden is worse than Trump dismisses the current situation we, and other POCs, face.
Being Black doesn't make you somehow more aware of the effects of Neoliberalism on POC communities, just being a critical thinker who looks at context. I haven't spoken for Black folk, just the truth. What fucking relief is the segregationist going to bring? Why should the Dems be rewarded for running a candidate who FUCKING CRITICIZED George H. W. Bush's war on drugs for NOT BEING EXTREME ENOUGH?
Biden and Clinton directly attacked black communities with the 1994 Crime Bill Clinton set up the 2008 financial crisis by repealing Glass-Steagall act. Obama chose to bail out industry instead of POC communities.
THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT YOUR ALLIES ANY MORE THAN THE REPUBLICANS.
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Then there can be no solution as they are the majority of the country?
lmfao was gonna comment the exact same thing