We're not voting for him libs, get the fuck over it already lol.
Why would I vote for Biden? He offers absolutely nothing but vague platitudes and a promise to the bourgeoisie that “nothing will fundamentally change.”
RGB is basically Lady Cassandra from Doctor Who at this point -- nothing more than a sheet of skin stretched over a skeleton. She's ready to disintegrate the moment the wind blows a little too hard.
The very real, immediate result of 4 more years of Trump is the Supreme Court will never rule in a way you agree with -- including overturning Roe v. Wade and abolishing access to abortion in this country overnight. Let's be real: today's Democrats wont try to pack the court again -- which means we'll never see actual progress in this country within our lifetimes no matter who the fuck is president.
I know it's one of the tactics libs use to scare people into voting Biding, but in this case they're 100% right. There just doesn't exist a path for the left with a completely rigged Supreme Court unless a dem president grew a spine or we had a constitutional convention and neither of those things are gonna happen.
"We must elect the guy who smeared a sexual assault victim to help Clarence Thomas get on the Supreme Court, and rallied Dems to vote for Scalia, so that we may save the Court from the evil clutches of Trump"
this. we already lost. like, everything said is true-but its just as true of biden-harris as trumpence.
I need a shower and a very rough loofah to rub my bare skin raw every time I think it, but the alternative is the Honorable Tom fucking Cotton and Ted Cruz.
I think that's just Trump doing dumbass Trump soundbites. The actual nominees would be whoever the establishment wants them to be, just like under Biden. They shove a piece of paper under Trump's dumbass nose, he signs it, and then he does a press junket to say how it was his idea the whole time. Like with everything else.
That might be true, but we don't know a Trump that isn't concerned with being elected another 4 years yet. I don't want to fuck around and find out.
Regardless, any justice he appoints will be just as evil regarding all practical considerations.
I really don't think Trump will move toward outright fascism given 4 more years. I think the politics will remain more or less the same, but the "don't give a fuck Trump" will go more in the direction of doing less restrained tweeting, talking about toilets in public speaking appearances, and turning around and launching White Castle farts into the White House press pit.
I really don’t think Trump will move toward outright fascism given 4 more years.
I mean we're already at the "abduct leftists in unmarked vans and talk openly about calling in the military to massacre them" stage; where do you see that going?
The Supreme Court is already gone and honestly has needed to be reformed for a long time now.
That's not going to happen when you make it harder. If you want to wait for the left to be quashed until enough grassroots momentum develops for a full scale revolution, then a lot of people are going to be hurt or die assuming it's even possible at all.
Everyone here would support a viable alternative, but when the leftist movement in America currently consists of a few podcasts, powerless niche political parties, a few problematic congresspeople and a presidential candidate -- then worrying about the SCOTUS isn't lib shit but simply practical shit.
Simply voting should take 1-8 hours out of your day depending on the egregiousness of voter suppression in your area. Permanently and irreversibly changing the potential political and material reality of your country for the worse is forever.
biden will not grow a spine. this is an argument for voting trump.
nothing will fundamentally change
The only pro-Biden argument is that things not fundamentally changing (i.e., things continuing to get worse) is still better than things fundamentally changing in the wrong direction (i.e., things getting much worse, much more quickly, in ways that significantly escalate what we'd need to do to turn things around).
If the left were more organized accelerationism would make sense. I don't think it makes sense with the level of organization we have now.
hello sir my car is broken and does not run anymore, i would like it repaired to exactly the state it was is in just moments before the wheels fell off thank you.
But the choice is between that and torching your car. One is a shitty non-solution that at best will let you limp another mile, the other is accelerating the problem.
if we are going to torture this analogy further, then i do also have a bike in my trunk (state and local government + congress) that works all right, and i can get on it and sweat a little. but i know if i let the sketchy repair guy barely fix my car, the odds are very high the bike will get stolen. and then my car will immediately fall apart again, and i will be stranded again just like before, but sans bike and whatever arm and leg it cost me to pay the mechanic.
Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we're strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we're sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
Joe Biden in 2020 would do nothing to prevent Tom Cotton in 2024, yes. What Biden would do is (arguably) give the left more time to grow and organize. With Biden we’re strolling lazily towards fascism; with Trump we’re sprinting there. The left is not ready for sprinting there.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Please do not misconstrue this as support for Trump. I am voting for neither. Just addressing this one shitty argument.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
I'm guessing you mean Obama, not Biden.
First, the material conditions of many people are worse today than they were in, say, 2011. It's also no longer plausible to sell people on any sort of slowly-building economic recovery. Second, Obama had a progressive veneer, was incredibly charismatic, and was subjected to all sorts of horrible racist attacks from chuds. From a retail politics standpoint that all made it harder for any sort of left criticism to stick. Third, there was no real infrastructure for any sort of mass leftist movement when Obama was elected (and the closest thing that did exist was his campaign). Compare the protest/media/electoral leftist ecosystem today to that of 2008, and you'll find there's no comparison at all.
If Biden wins he will take office in an economy much more conducive to leftist organizing, will have almost none of the personal/tactical advantages Obama had, and will face much stronger leftist criticism from Day 1.
The left organized WAY more under Trump than under Biden.
Also assuming you meant Obama. The left was almost non-existant in any real visible capacity to the average American until after 4 years of Obama. I'm old enough to remember and have been a leftist since Clinton. To me, that's solid anecdotal evidence that ineffectual dem leadership is more mobalising for the left than transparent fascism for whatever reason.
Libs are immediately pacified as soon as their guy is elected while people that have a modicum of human empathy become more frusted. Trying to play fucking 4D chess about this is going to hurt the left.
obama already serves as the mark for ineffective democratic leadership, biden isn't going to change that, and it doesn't need to be refreshed. what organizes and drives people left is adversity, which is still there during a dumb ass neo-liberal, but much more apparent under a neo-con.
four more years of trump gives the shit time to fester to the surface, which is necessary for people to actual realize what the fuck is happening.
cops have been killing minorities for decades, under obama, under bush, under clinton, the entire fucking time and the whole time it got swept under the fucking rug. that shit only got any real attention because even the mainstream media has to use it as an attack against trump.
trump being president is like a giant shining light on all that is wrong with america, and that light turns off under biden. you are arguing against logic. stop.
I think Trump is less bad of the two horrible options, but again, "prefer" is a tricky word. That tiny margin of preference is not enough to motivate me to vote for Trump. I can't morally pull that lever for someone that monstrous.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump, but that is not a reason in and of itself to vote for Trump.
I think our political struggle would face fewer obstacles under Trump
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that -- if you decide you want to -- you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Trump is already kidnapping leftists using unmarked vans and federal goons who refuse to identify who they work for. Literally the only reason you run that sort of operation is so that – if you decide you want to – you can indefinitely detain or even disappear someone.
Please spare me the argument that Biden, who was the VP when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons, and helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street, would respect the Constitution™ and not use strongarm tactics against BLM protesters.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them. What more do you need to tell you that he's indistinguishable from Trump on this issue?
How is that (and what it is obviously setting the stage for) less of an obstacle than whatever Biden would do?
Because you've localized it to one issue where you argue (erroneously, IMO) that Biden wouldn't use fascist measures where Trump is.
In reality, the Dems are the much bigger obstacle to the left organizing. The Dems are squatting on the "opposition party" and positioning themselves as "the left", and then not doing anything "left" and enabling the right.
They are a dampening agent on the left. They are occupying the only weapon we have in terms of electoralism, and rendering it useless. Putting them in power does nothing to stop Republicans, as they thirst to work with them to oppress the people. And it normalizes "the left" being right wing, as Biden's corpse starts more wars and imposes more austerity, and the Republicans move to the right to keep their Nazi street cred. Pushing us further right off the cliff to oblivion. We've repeated this cycle a dozen times; this time is no different.
If you want to argue that electoralism is meaningless and we should ignore it, that's fine. That's another thread. But if we are starting with the premise that electoralism has any worth at all, then it has to start with unseating shitty Democrats. And handing Biden the keys to the White House is going to set that process back a decade.
Absolutely this. It is clear that every president since (and obviously including) Reagan has been a proponent of the same Neoliberal dismantling of the public sphere. I used to think our only chance was for the Republican party to become untenable, but that isn't going to happen with the way rural states are disproportionately represented. The Democrat party must become untenable when running the same old shit, it is the only way to get them to change. I'm not sold on electoralism, direct action is clearly working better, but you can't argue that motherfucking Biden, a literal segregationist and author of the 1994 crime bill (which he still supports) is any type of real harm reduction.
edit: I also love that Trump destroys our international reputation, hurting the US hegemony more than anything I could ever have imagined.
when Obama disappeared American citizens, ran secret prisons
Big difference between doing that in Iraq and doing it in Oregon. Legally it's an entirely different world, and it's similarly night-and-day in terms of media coverage.
helped the authorities crack leftist skulls at Standing Rock and Occupy Wall Street
The local police are generally who's cracking skulls, and the president doesn't control the local police. Big difference between the NYPD -- who Obama had zero control over -- breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that's answerable to him.
He is literally telling you while running for president that he will round these people up and arrest them.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth. Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
The local police are generally who’s cracking skulls, and the president doesn’t control the local police.
Ummmmm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
Big difference between the NYPD – who Obama had zero control over – breaking up Occupy and Trump creating a federal police force on the fly that’s answerable to him.
Big difference between 500 people sitting on blankets, vs. police cars being overturned in a dozen cities and people wheeling out guillotines, too. Hence the bigger authoritarian response. The billionaires are getting more nervous, and the president does what the billionaires want.
If you think Biden wouldn't do exactly what Trump did if he faced the same set of circumstances, you are Charlie Brown running 90 MPH at a football.
This is no different from libs breathlessly believing that Trump will do everything that pops out of his mouth.
Oh yeah, nope, no reason whatsoever to believe Biden will throw people into unmarked vans... except for the fact that Biden was the VP under a president who literally broke the Constitution and infringed upon civil rights daily, and walked away after 8 years completely clean, with people going "he never had a scandal except a tan suit".
Big difference between wanting to arrest the protesters who break windows and wanting the military to massacre protesters en masse.
You have now devolved into right wing talking points to defend Biden. It's ok, he'll just strongarm and arrest the ones that deserve it!!
You have now devolved into right wing talking
Highlighting the difference between a small-c conservative and a fascist is not a right-wing talking point. You're not even bothering to read what I'm writing in good faith, so I'm not going to bother with the rest of your nonsense.
Yeah, the only argument for this is if you believe in accelerationism.
Biden is a segregationist that wrote the 1994 Crime Bill he still supports. He's not good for PoCs, he's absolutely a racist.
No denial about that. But the only reason Trump didn't write the bill is because he wasn't a Senator (and because he's an idiot). He literally wanted to bring bad the death penalty after CP5.
Im not voting Biden, but implying hes worse than Trump shows how much of a white privileged prick you are..... And that you know 3 Black folks maximum.
If you are white, you have no right to downvote this comment.
if Biden wins, white libs think black american's are fine again. Never mind that most of the extrajudicial murders happened in dem controlled areas. The DNC has to change to help PoCs, and they damn sure aren't going to change by being rewarded for being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.
R u Black? If not, don't speak for what most Black folk. We already know how much this country is disdainful towards up. But your white ass CANT comprehend the relief if Biden wins, despite us knowing hes problematic.
Saying Biden is worse than Trump dismisses the current situation we, and other POCs, face.
Being Black doesn't make you somehow more aware of the effects of Neoliberalism on POC communities, just being a critical thinker who looks at context. I haven't spoken for Black folk, just the truth. What fucking relief is the segregationist going to bring? Why should the Dems be rewarded for running a candidate who FUCKING CRITICIZED George H. W. Bush's war on drugs for NOT BEING EXTREME ENOUGH?
Biden and Clinton directly attacked black communities with the 1994 Crime Bill Clinton set up the 2008 financial crisis by repealing Glass-Steagall act. Obama chose to bail out industry instead of POC communities.
THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT YOUR ALLIES ANY MORE THAN THE REPUBLICANS.
Being Black doesn’t make you somehow more aware of the effects of Neoliberalism on POC communities
Yes it does
Biden and Clinton directly attacked black communities with the 1994 Crime Bill Clinton set up the 2008 financial crisis by repealing Glass-Steagall act. Obama chose to bail out industry instead of POC communities.
I don't like em lol. I just don't prefer Trump over them ( idk much about Bill Clinton tbh tho).
THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT YOUR ALLIES ANY MORE THAN THE REPUBLICANS.
Yes, they are?! I would much rather live in area that's 90%+ blue than an 90%+ red, despite Dems being trash.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/society-culture/race/top-ten-cities-african-americans-2013
Then there can be no solution as they are the majority of the country?
wrong, we will get our shit totally wrecked
https://i.imgur.com/GFSSat0.jpg
i am leaning towards the idea that the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump's nominees for 4 years. but it's hard to say how Trump would act without McConnell there to kill everything in the Senate. i think Dems could send bills to his desk, he might actually sign some of them. i think he would even sign single-payer if they called it "Trumpcare" and he'd secure his big ego a huge legacy (at least narrowly on healthcare) like tommy douglas in canada. haha, who i am i kidding, the dems would never pass a single-payer bill. (Trump has genuinely supported single-payer for decades.)
of course, Trump leaning into some kind of right-wing nationalism but with welfare state policies (hmmm is there a name for such a thing), it would be absolutely devastating politically for the liberals who have been offering absolutely nothing, and insufferably smug about, too.
the best case is for Biden to lose, but Dems take control of the senate so they can block all Trump’s nominees for 4 years
That could be the best scenario, but I doubt Dems have the fortitude or party coherence to stonewall like that. I don't think there's any chance they'd stonewall a Supreme Court nominee for years, especially, and there's a good chance they'd lose the ensuing legal battle if they tried.
There's also a chance this could lead to Trump being impeached again, but removed this time, which would leave us with President Pence. Again, I don't know if libs could get their act together enough to do this, but that + a Democratic Congress would probably be even better than Trump with a Democratic Congress.
I doubt there would be 67 votes to remove him. You might be right about the court, but in my opinion (and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism) I think anything that convinces the libs the SCOTUS is illegitimate is probably good. Because even if Biden wins he is going to put stooges like Garland on it. Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard, whether it's Biden nominees or Trump nominees.
I actually think the Senate would stonewall Trump's nominees, but they are fucking PISSED at McConnell for his strategy of "turning the Senate into a graveyard." They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers to prevent McConnell from pulling some kind of wonky quorum bullshit and do god knows what while Dems are doing whatever the do in DC. For example, even Joe fuckin Manchin has gone back and forth on the filibuster. Not for any ideological reasons, but just because if they don't nothing will happen even if they do take the Senate majority.
and this is a narrowly tailored kind of accelerationism
I don't think you can really do accelerationism with any sort of control.
Even in a best-case scenario, where and AOC/Lee Carter ticket wins the white house, the court is going to fuck any left-wing agenda hard
Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.
They did not get to that point in a political career to be nothing but bench warmers
I doubt they're actually concerned about this -- as a politician there's nothing better for your continued electoral hopes than not being able to do anything and having someone else to blame it on. If you do something, it might not work and you might take the heat.
Not necessarily; FDR was able to do a lot of stuff similar to what the AOC wing of the party is suggesting now, and the power of the federal government has almost universally increased since then.
Right, but the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves and the court decided it was better to concede to his agenda then establish the precedent of being cuckolded by the White House. Will the modern Democratic Party be willing to disregard the judicial branch? Will the media abide it? Will the liberals? I don't think so. The Democratic Party under FDR was an entirely different animal than the one we have today.
the reason FDR was able to do this is because he was prepared to tell the court to go fuck themselves
But because he did that we now have ~90 years of judicial precedent saying the federal government can do all sorts of things. That precedent didn't exist in the 1930s, so the Court was effectively deciding whether to greatly expand the scope of federal powers. Those same questions won't come up this time; they were decided most of a century ago.
Plus, a lot of left-ish policy proposals are extensions of existing programs (e.g., M4A) or well-established policies cut-and-pasted onto progressive goals (e.g., much of the Green New Deal). It be shocking if something like M4A even got before the Supreme Court, because what legal challenge can you throw at it that hasn't been shot down about Medicare over the last 50 years? There's no need to threaten the judicial branch over most of this stuff.
Really, it isn't a question of which one will help grow the left. Neither of them will help grow the left. They are both dedicated to a system which vows to eradicate the left.
Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier. Both candidates are in a pissing contest vowing to crack down on "aNtIfA" harder than the alternative in an effort to appease the suburban petit bourgeois fascists. The real answer is that it ultimately doesn't matter who wins. This is not a democratic process under any pretense. This country is not operating with "the consent of the governed" in any measurable fashion. The election is a charade, and to get caught up in the outcome one way or another is a waste of precious sanity.
The "Trump may be better for the left" takes are cringe. The "Biden may be better for the left" takes are cringe. They are both good for capital, they are both bad for us, and the whole circus is so far removed from the things the masses actually have control over.
Sure, we need to take whatever we can get. I remain convinced that there is absolutely nothing we can "get" here though, aside from opportunities to agitate.
If the left is going to grow in this country it's up to us to convert our friends and neighbors. The worsening of material contiditions under Trump is just as likely to drive people to the right as it is to the left. Biden might be scum and I personally won't be voting for him, but he will preserve the status quo giving us four more years to organize. Under Trump it's entirety possible that "far left" organization will be made a priority target. In fact he's doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.
When all the libs are out to brunch and scolding the left for criticizing Biden (just like during Obama)
The libs don't actually like Biden the way they like Obama. He's just "not Trump" to them.
Under Trump it’s entirety possible that “far left” organization will be made a priority target. In fact he’s doing right now by strawmaning Biden as an Antifa puppet.
Federal goons are already arresting DSA organizers.
Neither administration will lift a finger to make our task of organizing easier.
Of course they aren't going to actively help; the question is which will create an environment more conducive to recruiting leftists. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the side currently abducting leftists in unmarked vans (and that's openly discussing when they can order the military to shoot leftists) is not going to create the best environment for the left.
biden literally said anarchists should be prosecuted. not gonna count on him stopping that shit.
In Biden's pudding/lib brain:
smashed windows disrupt brunch -> smashed windows are bad -> anarchists do mindless violence, right? -> these people smashing windows (who of course have no legitimate grievances) must be anarchists -> I'll say they should be arrested so people can get back to brunch
That's the extent of his ideological opposition to anarchists. It's standard conservative "law and order" stuff with less racial coding. Republicans, on the other hand, have spent decades building elaborate propaganda machines to equate anything left of Ronald Reagan with the worst shit you can think of.
That’s the extent of his ideological opposition to the left.
Did you just unironically post this?? After watching the same primaries i did? Joe "i didn't want my kids to grow up in a racial jungle of desegregation" biden? Joe "i voted for the Iraq war and i'd do it again" Biden? Joe "there was no problems at all with the crime bill" biden?
Ah you changed to anarchists, that's fair but i still don't agree. I don't think Biden knows what an anarchist actually is, but i'm sure he thinks anarchists are literally terrorist. Which is still really fucking bad for us.
Right before you posted this I edited my comment to say "anarchists" instead of "the left." The point is he doesn't have a fucking clue what "anarchism" or any other type of leftism is. If he were made king for a day he wouldn't march leftists into death camps; many Republicans would.
Joe “i didn’t want my kids to grow up in a racial jungle of desegregation” biden?
Joe “there was no problems at all with the crime bill” biden?
This is just garden-variety racism or indifference to racism, not any sort of deep-seated ideological hatred of the left.
It doesn't matter what he personally believes, all his actual actions have had the result of weakening or attacking the left. Whether it's his handlers making the decisions based on money or just outright hate is irrelevant.
Either Biden or Trump is going to hurt the left, sure, but Trump right now is ordering federal goons to kidnap DSA organizers. Trump is doing material harm to the left right now. It's hard to believe a party less ideologically opposed to the left is going to somehow do worse if put in power.
Whether it’s his handlers making the decisions based on money or just outright hate is irrelevant.
On the contrary, examining their motivations tells you how far they're willing to go. It absolutely matters whether "we're going to arrest these people" is made as a generic "law and order" bit or made as part of a broader strategy that would have no problem going full Pinochet.
I live in the city the DSA organizers are being kidnapped and you're missing that a huge part of why that happened is because the democratic mayor and governer rolled over for the feds and gave them a bunch of powers after that one guy killed the chud.
So like, seems like that actually proves only actions and not rhetoric matters. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds has been proved to me over and over again. And Biden isn't even a liberal.
the democratic mayor and governer rolled over for the feds
This requires the feds coming to local leadership with a "let's crush the protests" plan in the first place. There's a difference between a lib who will go along with fascism because they're "just doing their job" and a fascist who will initiate fascism. Note that Obama didn't crudely graft together a federal police force and send it after protesters during Occupy or Ferguson, for instance.
Biden was literally chosen to be the more conservative balance to Obama's "liberalism" so i don't know how you think that argument is actually convincing? Like he's a moderate republican in all his actions. The man was against federal funding for abortions before this election cycle ffs. He is a conservative in practice.
I mean you could also just look at the list of pro-war republicans endorsing him too. Even Obama wasn't that bold. He's fundamentally a conservative in everything but name, but it's like ya'll see the (D) and it's brainwashed you to think he's okay somehow. He's literally more conservative than our shitty lib mayors who approved sending in the feds.
Like he’s a moderate republican in all his actions.
Sure, and there's similarly a difference between this and the dead-eyed fascism you can find in abundance among Republicans. It's "let's lock up the rabble" law-and-order shit, not "let's turn the military loose on leftists because I would exterminate them if given the chance."
it’s brainwashed you to think he’s okay somehow
How do you read stuff like "Biden will hurt the left" and "he's a law-and-order conservative" and think I believe that's OK?
let’s lock up the rabble” law-and-order shit
this attitude locked up millions of black people and created a slave state so i'm gonna pass on arguing with you anymore if you think that isn't at the very least fascist adjacent
Holy fucking shit it's exhausting arguing against stuff I never came close to saying. You're not even trying here.
Biden's certainly not opposed to leftism on any sort of deep ideological level the way Republicans are. Republicans made Pinochet into a meme; libs at worst just want to stop property destruction so they can go back to ignoring protests.
He's not ideological about anything. He doesn't have any surface-level policies he really gives a shit about, let alone anything resembling an ideology.
Almost all of the most excessive crackdowns on the American left have happened under liberals not conservatives.
Going to need a source on that one, especially as right now the feds are stuffing DSA organizers into unmarked vans. There's no history that's more relevant than what's going on today.
You know tossing out a few anecdotes isn't a "source," right? Here, I can do it too: McCarthyism peaked under Eisenhower, Nixon had a whole fucking enemies list and dirty tricks paramilitary squad, Reagan fired the air traffic controller union wholesale, etc.
Obviously both parties serve capitalism and will combat the left in accordance with the domestic police state, but one party has something like a real ideological opposition to leftists and is is openly talking about just shooting them. You're fucking delusional if you think that party is just as dangerous as the party that just wants protesters to stop breaking windows.
A member of the DSA gets taken in and questioned for a day.
Lying about the scope and seriousness of what's happening is also delusional. Have fun telling the feds who give you a helicopter ride that the Democrats would have been just as bad.
Workers died during the Coal Wars.
On August 30, 1921, President Warren G. Harding declared martial law for the entire state of West Virginia and 2,500 federal troops arrived on September 2, bringing with them machine guns and military aircraft armed with surplus explosive and gas bombs from the recently concluded World War I.
You really should fuck off with you "historical illiteracy" bullshit, but I'm guessing you won't.
It's a whole lot more complicated than whatever you're on about, and that's before we revisit the point that who the fuck cares what happened generations ago if one party has its boot on our throats right now.
by police who take their orders from Democrats
The police don't really take orders from anyone; the complete lack of accountability is a big reason the protests got so large and have sustained for so long. And while there are no shortage of shitty local Democrats, at least some are making serious attempts to change how we handle crime, compared to a Republican party that is pure bootlicker.
One party at least has some elements trying to control the police; the other is openly asking "why don't we just do fascism?" How is this hard?
you might want to get over whatever bizarre electoralism
Dismissing electoralism without a feasible alternative is just whining. If you have an alternative plan to achieve socialism that will actually work , I'm all ears.
if he were not idealogical he would have backed Medicare for All (or thrown some kind of bone) under pressure from the grassroots and worry the young left won't be fucked to vote (he's right).
he's doing a bad meat loaf cover: "i'd do anything to beat Trump, but i won't do that"
or thrown some kind of bone
He's thrown all sorts of bones at the left -- he had tons of meetings with Bernie, for instance -- the left just recognizes them as the load of horseshit that they are.
His constituency is (a) corporate donors and (b) centrist libs whose main priority is defeating Trump. Backing M4A would have pissed off all of that first group and at least some of that second; running on "nothing will fundamentally change" satisfies both. He's not a populist candidate, he knows that (or the people around him do), and his campaign staff credibly believes they don't need to rock the boat to win. The left sees all the problems with that strategy, but the Biden camp doesn't because they're not leftists.
Trump would probably help the left grow more than Biden
I don't think many people who say this are actually serious about it, because if they were they'd vote Trump. After all, voting is not some moral referendum; it's a (heavily limited) political tactic. Trump = acceleration, and for the reasons stated above the left is not ready for acceleration. You don't seek out a conflict when you're small and disorganized.
Please take a look who gutted M4A and GND, and tell me if Trump can even top that.
You're talking about "gutting" policies that don't even exist and that likely wouldn't exist even if Bernie was the nominee, won, and somehow got a Democratic majority, too. M4A and GND are imaginary at this point, so gutting them doesn't mean anything in the real world. Literally anything Trump does that has real-world consequences is worse.
pretend like everything is OK
What part of "the left needs to grow and organize and needs the best possible environment for that" is "pretending like everything is OK?"
It's not necessarily accelerationism to think that the liberals in a Biden administration would use every ounce of political power to crush the left, rather than the right. Whereas if Biden loses, the liberals will be split between playing defense and punching left. The right doesn't understand the difference between the left and liberals in the first place.
There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress. It happened extensively under Obama. Then you are weighing one office, the presidency, against a slew of other parts of government. If we're being honest your state and local government has a lot more impact on your day to day life than the president. The people from whom the president matters most are people who live in red states, and not in the city. The people for whom the downballot matters most are people in the swing states. So if you live in Michigan, you might wonder, are you willing to risk getting another Rick Snyder running your state just so Biden can do fuck all in the White House for 4 years, and set Kamala up to lose to Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley or Nikki Haley or some other asshole who is much more competent ghoul than Trump?
There is also a strong argument to be made that if Biden wins, the Republicans will make gains in state and local, and in congress.
Why wouldn't that happen under a hypothetical Sanders administration? "We're better off with the GOP in office because otherwise the GOP will win more lower seats" can't be the logic all the time, or else we'd just willingly hand over the keys to them every four years. I'd wager at least part of the answer is that a black man with an exotic-sounding name breaks chud brains in a way a white guy named "Joe" won't.
Who can know for sure, but I think the fact that the Sanders administration would be doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues people are experiencing. If he was the "organizer in chief" I think is a radically different scenario from what Obama did (he basically dismantled his massive grassroots apparatus when he won) and surely would be different from what Biden will do if he wins.
doggedly focused on addressing all of the pain points and kitchen table issues
Another part of what got Democrats beaten badly in 2010 was Obama promising the moon and then disappointing. He was Hope and Change, and instead we got a bare-minimum economic recovery and zero movement on ending our forever wars. Even Obamacare was a letdown -- it was the mildest reform he could get away with and the dismantling of it was started almost immediately.
No one is expecting anything from Biden other than "not Trump."
Does living in a swing state count as a gun? My liberal vote shaming family and friends are afraid of guns.
Doesn’t that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There’s a lot of tension between “Trump would be better than Biden for the left” and “no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump.”
"Better" implies Trump would actually good. I don't like to use that word. I prefer to say "Trump would be slightly less apocalyptically bad than Biden" for the left.
There's two bad choices for the left, which is why I'm not participating. But if we're spinning out which future scenario would more likely lead to less shitty outcomes for leftists, it's the one that gets us closer to wiping out the Democratic Party completely, since they are the more immediate threat to leftists having viable political alternatives, far more than Republicans are.
No self respecting leftist is going to vote for Trump
Doesn't that say something about how good or bad he really is for the left? There's a lot of tension between "Trump would be better than Biden for the left" and "no fucking way would I ever vote for Trump."
So you really think the corporate elites are going to let even a center left soc dem like Bernie Sanders come close to power again?
You could have said the same thing after 2016, yet there he was as the Democratic frontrunner in 2020 through the first four primaries. Corporate elites have enormous sway over elections, but they can't just determine the outcome by flipping a switch. To kneecap Bernie they needed (1) the left not to be too strong, (2) a centrist politician with at least some credible public support, and (3) some coordinating force -- Obama, in this case -- to persuade centrist candidates to drop out on cue. There were other factors that helped them pull it off in 2020, and there are a dozen random things that could have wrapped it up for Bernie no matter what they did (imagine if covid or the Tara Reade story hit two months earlier). And don't forget, Bernie is not an especially strong candidate. He's old, he's not particularly charismatic, he had to create a political base from scratch, he had no allies in the party, and he comes from a state too tiny to have much of an electoral impact. If anything about that situation changes in the future, there's no guarantee they'll be able to job another candidate the way they jobbed Bernie.
But now if his supporters capitulated, the bourgeoisie will not be afraid anymore.
No matter what the left does, the left doesn't get to decide how that's portrayed in the media because the left's media arm is still in its infancy. They're going to try to blame the left for any negative outcome no matter what we do. We can't control the narrative, so the discussion is about what little influence we do have on the end result, and what result we'd prefer.
Should the KDP have worked with the SDP in Weimar Germany is a timeless question and it manifests itself today in our choices.
the left actually shrinks under less evil liberals
What are "material conditions"?
I finally told my mom that I left the Democrats and re-registered as a No Party Preference and she lost her shit. I also told her I'm not voting for Biden, but I live in California so it doesn't really matter. Libs can fuck allllll the way off.
I’m in a decent situation where my mother left the dems and registered as no party preference before I did, and both my parents are supportive of me not voting Biden in a swing state. I just got to drop theory on them and push them towards ML now
I don't think I've seen anyone here apologizing for Biden. The most you'll see is "Biden sucks, but I'm half-heartedly considering voting for him even though he's doing his best to convince me not to."
It's exactly this and some people are way too caught up in the online argument drama. Pick a fucking way to vote or don't already and stop incessantly having the same boring argument over and over.
People are really hoping that they can effect something but won't at least at the presidential level.
That's still apologizing for him. It's admitting he is somehow the better option or "harm reduction". He isn't.
Everyone on my basketball team sucks, but I still have to pick five starters. Am I "apologizing" for the five starters even though I openly say they suck too?
The game is going to happen whatever you do. "Don't play" just lets someone else decide.
idk chief I dont see any distinction between trump and biden that holds any substance so i'd rather be guilt free
esp since biden is prolly going to start a couple wars
i’d rather be guilt free
Good luck, you're American, you're as guilty as the rest of us and how you mark a ballot in November ain't gonna change that.
okay then i guess i can just not vote since im already guilty
I am voting 3rd party to count our numbers. Lenin talked about it somewhere and it seems pretty rational to me. I suggest you do the same.
Yeah sure just stop treating this like it's some act of personal absolution.
when theres no distinction between the two candidates you may as well personally absolve yourself
personally absolve yourself
You cannot do this at the ballot box. You just cannot. You continue to live here and materially benefit from being within the imperial core, so no, you're absolved of nothing.
really helps us to feel good
And there it is.
not voting being a cleansing wave that washes away ties to all the worthless, empty choices made before
This is utter nonsense, you cannot undo the past. Those Iraqis are still dead, for example.
If the path of reasoning you've followed has left you with no choice but to cling to an admitted delusion, maybe it's time to reexamine the reasoning that you followed.
That's fair. I certainly don't blame anyone for not wanting to support the diet GOP.
I've got strong feelings both ways and no good way to untangle them. But I live in Texas so it really doesn't matter.
My comparatively weak standard that I developed before even Bernie had entered the race was that if whoever the DNC ends up nominating can do better in polling than Clinton in Texas, I'd try to push them over the line with my vote.
The Dems have met that standard so far but between their diet GOP convention, the Neal/Morse shenanigans, Pelosi's Kennedy endorsement, and the Biden camp saying "oh we were just trying to placate 'Warren people,'" goddamn they are determined to give me reasons to disregard it and throw my vote to the Greens or something.
lol I'm not going to tear my hair out writing a perfect analogy for someone who doesn't know what "apologize" means
Every once in a while I run into normie lib social media and my brain melts for a minute the level of weird appoligia these people do to themselves to think Biden is good.
are people doing a biden here i havent even seen that, genuinely curious because i think itd be hilarious to see a chapo user try and do that
There's some going on in the thread about Trump wanting to put Tom Cotton on the Supreme Court.
Who cares if the GOP funded them or not? That doesn't change the practical consequences.
Why vote blue? If you live in a swing state you are one of the few people with actual power to sway the election. Unless you have an actually good reason to vote bloo, which I assume from how you phrased it you don't, means that you not voting bloo is the best message you could send. Probably the best of all would be a blank presidential vote and whoever is progressive down-ticket.
This is exactly my swing state strategy. The thing that gives me the most confidence is that biden straight up.told me not to vote for him. I lose zero sleep on this decision.
When you vote for Biden you’re essentially approving his platform.
Lol not remotely. He has no meaningful platform, for starters. Voting is an extremely limited political tactic, not some sort of moral endorsement.
yeah he does have a platform
But no meaningful platform. He doesn't care about it, his supporters don't care about it, the odds of him passing anything significant are slim, etc. It's just "hey remember Obama?"
it’s an opportunity to make clear that you don’t support something
You can't make anything clear with your vote, because a vote isn't a message, and the left doesn't control mainstream messaging outlets. Literally zero of the reasons you have for voting the way you do will be communicated to anyone unless you personally tell them. The messaging is all done after the fact, by people in the media.
succDems are so mentally weak its a joke
They have no moral compass or sense of decency but instead are cowed at the fake hype that Biden is less worse than Trump
Imagine writing rape apologia like this
And heads up: i can make a very convincing arguement that Biden is worse than Trump as all the countries suffering under the jackboot of imperialism want Trump to win
Can start with under Obama/Biden
- the dems took 3 wars to 7
*Opened concentration camps on the Mex border
- imprisoned more whistleblowers than every previous president combined under Obama/Biden
*Obamas renege on his 2008 campaign and all his promises led directly to Trump
Conversely Trump has not started a new major war
But honestly if you can torture yourself mentally into having any respect for yourself after voting for Biden you're a shitlib and a lost cause
And heads up: i can make a very convincing arguement that Biden is worse than Trump as all the countries suffering under the jackboot of imperialism want Trump to win
Looks like you struggle to read for comprehension if you think I'm "defending Trump" so I've just repeated what I said back to you ^
You’re the one putting way too much weight on electoralism
Oh only 2 comments up you said:
I’m voting against Trump. Yeah it sucks to do it
Nope - you're the one here focused on electoralism trying to get people to vote for a Rapist and writing rape apologia to do so
you sound like a larpy 15 year old
If larping means being an active member of a Communist Party then yes I'm a larper.
that thinks winning arguments on the internet has any value.
I’ll vote for Biden and not really give a shit if he loses.
That's fine. Endorse a rapist, a segregationist and a guy that destroyed an entire generation of black lives
When the contradictions of capital come to the fore and the proletariat are on the move see you on the other side of the fence
Yup no proletarian revolutions ever happen.
Nope just bite your tongue and vote for Biden lol you fucking shitlib
They certainly do happen when you're a Succdem whiny loser crying on the net about voting for Biden to be "against Trump" cos you're a fucking cuck for Biden
/r/TheMueller is that way buddy
They're gonna impeach him (again) any day now lol
Look if you want to vote for Biden that's great but fuck off to neoliberal instead of pretending you're any stripe of principled marxist
erm no actual purity tests (as you so illuminatingly put it) is what keeps a Marxist party free of liberalism
It's called purging
And no lol no libs are gonna be needed for a revolution
Go read some fucking Marx instead of talking to me you useless cuck for Biden
You would be if a Marxist party was stupid enough to let you in but I seriously doubt you would last beyond a 30 min conversation before being dismissed lol
For
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advocating voting for a rapist
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advocating voting for a capitalist
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advocating voting for a segregationist
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advocating voting for an imperialist
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Wow, you really do struggle with reading for comprehension
On a serious note I would urge you to study and better your reading for comprehension skills. It is a valuable life skill
https://www.readingforcomprehension.com/
I'll go ahead and repeat a third time the key sentence I want you to understand and I'll leave it up to you whether you think I'm "supporting Trump" or whether I'm demonstrating the bit I've boldened
And heads up i can make a very convincing arguement that Biden is worse than Trumps all the countries suffering under the jackboot of imperialism want Trump to win
What do you think will be the consequences of rewarding the DNC for their present conduct?
Votes are what they use to secure power. They care about votes.
President Kamala sounds good to you? If they keep being worse and worse and yet you keep rewarding them, you are the fool and not them and you don't get to complain. The fact that you say not voting helps trump shows how fucking shackled you are to the two party system and the idea that there is no other choice.
Yea Trump is terrible. But he only caused the Dems to also be even worse then before instead of better. Being the marginally lesser evil has been their only selling point at least since Nixon.
They will not learn without resistance. We have to make them understand that there is a limit. They have to lose or they will absolutely not change. To be fair I don't think they will change enough of they lose, but losing twice to trump is the best wake up call I can imagine.
If it doesn't matter then why are you gonna vote at all?
I am condescending because we can't coddle each other like children over this stuff. If we can't talk candidly to each other then what can we do? I believe quite firmly that a vote for the lesser evil is always the wrong choice. If neither party is able to even promise you a thing you want, then it makes no sense to vote for either party. And a thing you want can't be one party saying 'we will not piss on you if you are on fire' and the other saying 'well we might be convinced to piss on you under the right circumstances'. Yes that is two distinct choices and you can rank them and one is better then the other, but they are still not choices you should see as the horizon of the possible.
So, to spell it out: In a choice between Kamala and Pence, the correct choice is to choose neither.
Well I am sorry if I sound persuasive. Maybe I am making good points ;)
And you do have another reason to vote for Biden after all. Not a good one but hey, it's something.
This election not mattering is actually an okay stance in my book. I am very morally incensed about the democrats and I am not hiding that. If you are just done with the system for the most part then that's fair enough.
shrug
If the Dems get through with their ratfuckery again, they deserve to lose again. It really is that simple.
The Dems had every opportunity to extend an olive branch, between the pandemic and everything else 2020 is throwing around. They didn't do a damn thing. I would rather not be lied to by them then help them.
You literally cannot imagine a good thing they will do. You cannot get hype for them or invested. They can just 'reduce harm' a little compared to orange Mussolini. That is the horizon of the possible with a vote for Biden and you said it yourself.
Mark my words though: If Biden wins, there will be no harm reduction. They could have so very easily pushed for harm reduction now when it is already needed and they didn't. They are unwilling to even make a token effort now, before the election. If you think that will change if they win you are in for a disappointment. All they will give the millions of people who need help now is a 'Sorry, we know it's hard' as they do nothing. It is what they have done for decades and it has to stop working.
The Dems do rely on the left to hold their nose and vote for them while offering them nothing. They have done so for decades.
Note that I explicitly say don't vote for the president. If neither choice is good, don't choose at all. If the left vote can be captured by “probably actively pushing for the same things but sugarcoated”, then the left will never get anything at all.
“actively pushing for awful things” vs. “probably actively pushing for the same things but sugarcoated”
So, awful things in happening in a way that people will be more radicalized by vs. awful things happening but being completely ignored because Biden is so polite about it.
Seeing how the cities currently overpaying their militari...oh sorry cops to beat down left-leaning protests, I wouldn't hold my breath there either. They don't care about militias, they only care about putting a thin veil of normalcy over the shit heap that is the US.
In regards to militias: What will really happen is that, without Trump to embolden them, these militias will go to ground on their own terms and harden their resolve and be back all the stronger in four years.
Wanting a fascist to win so you can own the libs,, but it's ironic, so that makes it ok.
fuck me you're going to get us all killed.
Don jr puts Ben Shapiro on the Supreme Court in 2032 and they make it illegal to not snort a gram of nose candy a day. World peace is accomplished
Electoralism is never going to solve the fundamental issues in America and most people's votes are worthless, just enjoy the shit flinging a little and go back to things that matter
I'll probably end up voting for Biden. I don't want to, I'm fine leaving it blank. I vote in a deep blue state, so my vote is meaningless, but I've been guilted enough by my Mom and don't want to lie to her.
Don't vote for Biden. You have literally no reason. Just tell your mom the truth, you didn't vote for Biden because he sucks and your vote in a blue state doesn't matter anyway.
I don't know why, but for whatever reason she doesn't want to hear it.
Listen, I know I sound like a massive pussy, but I'm 30 and I've spent a lifetime letting down my Mom. I'm fine taking the very low hanging fruit here.
lol same, if it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. So fuck it, it takes a few minutes and I'm voting for other shit on the ballot anyway. People here talk like not voting is the most leftist thing ever, sometimes I feel like I'm reading a bunch of zoomers who think a socialist revolution is going to start online.
Lie to your mom or just tell her it's none of her business who you voted for. Voting literally doesn't matter especially in the state your in. Have fun and write in Jesse Ventura or someone memable, or deliver food to the homeless on the day you'd be voting - it will reduce far more harm than voting for Biden.
Vote third/blank if your state is deep blue. No reason to vote dem if they're winning anyway and you could help third parties reach thresholds
The Two Genders:
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I'll vote for Biden despite him putting Uyghurs in camps.
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I will not vote for Biden and he is not putting Uyghurs in camps.
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As if anyone Biden picks is going to be much better? Cotton is louder about being a fascist, but he probably wouldn't decide cases any different to whatever conservative Biden has planned.
Sotomayor and Kagan are far far far far far far better than the guy who wrote a NYT op-ed promoting obedience to a police state.
Biden isn't Obama. Biden is the guy who attacked Anita Hill to help get Clarence Thomas approved. Biden is the guy who voted for Scalia. Biden is the guy actively moving to the right in pursuit of Trump.
They're part of a machine. If you think Biden and Obama personally select the candidates rather than "advised", then you've distinctly got a lot more confidence in Biden's mental faculties than I do.
The entire party is moving right. Biden's nominee will be indistinguishable from someone like Thomas or Scalia.
Even if it's not, even if it's fuckin' Obama himself, their decisions will mostly be tacit approvals of our decent into fascism. Just with a couple "how dare you sir"s thrown in to decisions that don't matter too much and were already decided.
If you think Biden is to the right of Trump I don't know what to tell you.
I didn't say to the right of. I said their nominees will vote the same on all the issues that matter.
On 90% of issues, sure, but it's that 10% sliver, the one to consider our immigrant and minority allies, that should tip the scales.
The entire party is not moving right, the party is moving LEFT and at a good clip. People get tunnel vision on the presidency and the "national" party. The "national" party is really just an illusion. It doesn't exist. It's 57
islamicstate parties. The left getting an "upset" on an entrenched incumbent is starting to look less like a series of "upsets" and more like a pattern. And that's without even getting into what has been happening at the state and local level. The left is very much still ascendant in the party, and stopping Bernie took everything they could muster up. It took Obama coordinating a conspiracy with all the other candidates to drop out and endorse Biden, plus the entire national media constantly shitting on him, plus the cheating in Iowa, who knows what else behind the scenes... all that just to stop Bernie. Biden/Harris is probably the last big hurrah for the center-right wing of the party, imo. Though if Biden wins, he will set up a bunch of soulless toads like Pete Buttigieg with White House experience, then they may drag out the death throes a little longer.If you look out further than 4 years or so, the boomers start croaking. It's all downhill from there.
the party is moving LEFT and at a good clip
Imagine believing this. A few small wins does not equal moving left. But even those "left" winners happily fall in line behind the national party marching right.
Biden/Harris is probably the last big hurrah for the center-right wing of the party, imo. Though if Biden wins, he will set up a bunch of soulless toads like Pete Buttigieg with White House experience, then they may drag out the death throes a little longer.
No, Biden/Harris is enabling the Bush era Republican takeover of the party. What do you think the Lincoln Project is. If he wins, the party will be solidified as a right wing party with a fringe center-left element.
It's not "a few small wins" maybe you have not really been paying attention to what is happening in states? It's barely been 3 years since the left wing of the party sprouted up after Bernie put socialism back on the map. On every poll after poll the vast majority of Democratic voters support the major center-left policy goals that comprised Bernie's social-democratic platform.
No, Biden/Harris is enabling the Bush era Republican takeover of the party. What do you think the Lincoln Project is. If he wins, the party will be solidified as a right wing party with a fringe center-left element.
Yeah, a bunch of Jennifer Rubin Republicans who claim they are going to vote Biden (who really knows), but it's a mistake to believe they are going to vote straight Dem down the ticket. They may mark Biden at the top, but it will be R's the rest of the way down. That is not a "takeover" of the party. That is an illusion. All of these Biden Republicans you see and hear from are inside-the-beltway grifters who have a vested interest in it some way or another. I don't think there are any real Americans who don't sit on twitter all day that think "I am gonna be a Democrat now because the they're sensible moderates, like those Lincoln Project fellas" Some of them might vote for Joe Biden, but they aren't gonna start marching the isles with the party banner.
Considering Republicans will likely win, no.
lol in that case we will have a Republican led 5-2 SC for 4-8 years, meaning RBG and Breyer's fascist replacements will be 4-8 years younger than if they were appointed in 2021.
