yup, struggle session time

edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)

edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma

  • dayruiner [they/them]
    2·
    4 years ago

    It is, though? Like do you think the Tainos and the Caribs were speaking Spanish?

    • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
      15·
      4 years ago

      Do you think the Cherokees were speaking English? No, but if you suggested this idea to an American it would not resonate with them.

      • dayruiner [they/them]
        ·
        4 years ago

        We make shit up in English all the time, though. English is more gender neutral than English. You just took the already gender neutral pronoun they and made it apply more broadly. Spanish is literally just male and female with a default male that even a lot of cis women have been rightfully critiquing for years.

        • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
          10·
          4 years ago

          The comment was more directed at the bit I quoted. Can you even imagine people in America trying to convince regular folks of anything by saying English is a colonial language imposed on them by the dastardly Brits

          • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
            1·
            4 years ago

            we're not trying to create a framing for a propaganda campaign here, just speaking facts between comrades who should understand that pointing out Spanish is a colonial language is a simple historical fact

            • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
              3·
              4 years ago

              Sure, like English is, but this doesn't mean anything to Americans. It says something to American Hispanics because they're a minority from the US that often isn't that connected to the original culture and sees the issue through the lens of being a racial minority.

              • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
                ·
                4 years ago

                I don't even know what to make of this comment, what are you even arguing here? My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora

                • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                  2·
                  4 years ago

                  My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora

                  Removed from context maybe, but in the context of that comment this is exactly what I'm arguing and I expect anyone from Latam to have my back on this.

                      • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        Spanish settlers came and conquered the natives and created an entire political and ideological apparatus to justify their exploitation of them. Part of this was making other languages other than Spanish taboo and subject to punishment, legal or otherwise. This culture and ideology has not dissapeared in these countries and the erasure of a colonial past is part of that.

                        • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                          2·
                          4 years ago

                          Roman settlers came and conquered the Gauls and created an entire political and ideological apparatus to justify their exploitation of them. Part of this was making other languages other than Latin taboo and subject to punishment, legal or otherwise. This culture and ideology has not dissapeared in these countries and the erasure of a colonial past is part of that.

                          All of this is true, but try to tell a French person this. See if this makes them not identify with the French language

                            • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                              2·
                              4 years ago

                              I don't get what your problem with what I was saying was then. It's definitely true that this argument that you shouldn't identify with Spanish because it was "imposed to you" and it's not your real culture or whatever only has any currency with the American Hispanics.

                                • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                                  2·
                                  4 years ago

                                  Any language is not sacred. The underlying assumption that makes the argument work is that colonization means it's not our "real" culture. The argument makes no sense without it

                                  • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
                                    1·
                                    4 years ago

                                    The argument is that it is just one language among many and not a particularly privileged or special language that needs "preserving."

                  • gay [any]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Gender neutral language in Spanish works completely different from gender neutral language in English. It's proposed to be used for words with gramatical gender (pronouns, nouns, adjectives and articles) when and only when we're talking about humans. English doesn't have gramatical gender, it doesn't change the adjective if it's feminine or masculine, English has a gender neutral third person pronoun, the articles don't have gramatical gender.

                    If we wanted to adhere to English gender neutral language we would get rid of gramatical gender entirely. "La mesa alta, el pelo suelto" aren't meant to be changed for "le mese alte, le pelo suelte".

                    "Los (male plural, human) chicos(male plural, human) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)" would be changed to "Les(neutral plural) chiques(neutral plural) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)".

                    Want English gender neutrality? Here: "Les chiques quieren jugar a le pelote".

                    Edit: Cursed English conjugation added

                    Les chiques quiero to jugar a le pelote.

                      • gay [any]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        Yes there is vosotras. Ustedes, on the other hand, only has that gender neutral form.

                        And to be spicy, Spanish people say vosotres as well .

                          • gay [any]
                            ·
                            4 years ago

                            i meant like os instead of los…

                            That makes no sense. "Os" is used for the direct object in the second plural person. Give me an example of a phrase using that. Here, use this: "Los trabajadores no tienen nada que perder, salvo sus cadenas." And in singular form.

                            the fuck is vosotres

                            Lenguaje inclusivo ;)

                            "Vosotres sois mis mejores amigues, por eso os quiero recordar que contáis conmigo para todo."

                              • gay [any]
                                ·
                                4 years ago

                                What are you saying. Are you engaging with me honestly?

                                  • gay [any]
                                    ·
                                    4 years ago

                                    I'm gonna have to ask you to rephrase what you just said because I don't understand it.

          • dayruiner [they/them]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Yeah I see where you're coming from. I've had this argument many times and I suppose that the idea I meant to express was that Spanish colonists brought both their language and their ideas of masculinity and femininity and imposed them on people. But there isn't as much arguing over the sanctity of the English language.