Yeesh
There's been multiple threads already, yeah.
I've thought about joining DSA a few times just to connect with new people but then I see shit like this and don't want my money paying dues to bullshit like this
Literally more damaging than doing nothing
There are at least three ML parties in the United States:
FRSO
CPUSA
PSL
just saying: your options are open and they have been growing since the year 2020.
If not, you can check Facebook and Instagram since they're good for finding orgs in your area, various leftist groups and the like.
Barring that, there are AFL-CIO unions, independent labor unions, and the IWW.
Like I said, there are options.
Just thought I'd tell you all this in case you were feeling hopeless or distraught.
I agree that the DSA is... not my first pick. I've defended them, but the "caucus system" is something I don't agree with.
(I'm apart of CPUSA but I want to say that I'm formulating this post as impartially as I can.)
I am technically still a UFCW member and have seen firsthand how useless they are. I haven't looked much into PSL but maybe they might have something nearby.
Hopeless is the word. I'm feeling very despondent lately and if not for places like this community I'd feel like my perceptions of the world are completely insane and I'd probably have given up by now.
I really have just come to expect nothing good to happen in my life and any efforts I make to improve it will be so counterproductive it's better to do nothing
unions are part of the superstructure and as such class struggle can (and has to) only be struggled within them in proportion to the level of class struggle flowing around and through them. definitely get into local organizing every field needs work and organizer development!
Unions are not apart of the state, if that's what you're trying to say.
They're only as good as they're membership and it may depend on the type of union.
Superstructure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure
Okay, so you're using it correctly. Good.
Edit: But please ditch relying on Wikipedia. Thank you.
I really have just come to expect nothing good to happen in my life and any efforts I make to improve it will be so counterproductive it's better to do nothing
if nothing good is gonna happen in your own life then you can at least do some good for others by dedicating yourself to serving the people. doesn't need to be under the auspices of a particular organisation, just go engage with the masses somehow in a positive way and keep reading revolutionary thinkers and try to apply what they say to what you see in front of you. nihilism and defeatism isn't good enough comrade, people are out there being massacred by our ruling classes and they don't get the option to embrace nihilism.
It is probably best with an organization or collective and there are many good leftist orgs albeit too scattered; it is best not to encourage individualistic action in a country that already encourages individualism as it is.
you can work with your comrades who are within parties without yourself being involved in any of those parties, not belonging to an org doesn't mean working alone. this is how I choose to organise at present, as i don't see that belonging to any of the orgs available to me would augment my own ability to do the work - instead they would simply restrict my ability to do creative political work in favour of dedication to a particular, flawed line or method. your view that there are "many good leftist orgs" shies away from necessary criticisms of the issues holding those orgs back in favour of a "it's all good!" attitude.
basically, i aim to be a "cadre in lieu of a party" for now, focusing my efforts on pragmatically working for revolutionary goals than on reproducing some sect that has been stuck in its ways for years and will likely never get the masses behind it
Very well. I think it's good to work with a network of people, but I guess you're already doing that. I'll leave you to it, comrade.
CPUSA
dogshit supporters of the demoncrats since the mid 20th century, also feds
PSL
tailist sect who like to try and co-opt movements without doing the political work necessary to actually lead and organise them. also not fully sure but don't they have an iffy line regarding queer ppl
FRSO
not as bad as the first two but they make a pretty crucial mistake in saying that the US is no longer a settler-colony, IIRC
FRSO does not officially believe that last part.
PSL are not tailist
Also, we at CPUSA are not feds or supporters of Democrats.
FRSO does not officially believe that last part.
if that's the case then maybe i should reassess my view on them
all I've seen PSL doing is showing up to marches with placards but then running away as soon as things get spicy, and in general failing to actually engage with the masses and determine a revolutionary programme that will win their support. they had a strong presence in the 2020 uprisings and a strong presence in the present Palestine solidarity movement but I see non-communist organisers in those movements often critiquing PSL's participation in them (perhaps, admittedly, the PSL organisers who did do this effectively back in 2020 were the ones who got murdered by the pigs)
and forgive me if i'm wrong but didn't the CPUSA say that people should vote Biden in 2020 as a "vote against fascism" or something. i'm also not gonna suggest the CPUSA is entirely fed operated but there is a long history of successful infiltration there.
overall i'm not saying that none of these sects have any value or that they don't have a lot of decent communists involved, but none of them are exactly the American Bolsheviks, and only the FRSO seems willing to admit that it's not The Party in any way shape or form at present.
FRSO are good comrades and they have been growing by leaps and bounds and even helped get a few legislation passed in Chicago, despite their "small" size.
I've worked with PSL comrades. They're fine. Keep in mind that it depends on the group.
CPUSA's Twitter account said something to that effect (which did not specify Biden), but we are barred from supporting or endorsing candidates outside of our own and even had a schism with Sam Webb back in 2014 when he tried to turn CPUSA into a Dem group. Sam Webb lost and the rest of the Nat'l Committee won. It also may depend on the specific part of the CPUSA and, keep in mind, CPUSA has had at times internal disagreements and differing opinions. But in general, since 2014 and especially since 2019, things have been better, imho.
Also, they're not "sects." They're not religious groups. We need to stop viewing ML groups like this. We're scientific socialists. We shouldn't be castigating each other, especially those that are out there on the streets fighting oppression, yeah? Which is why I don't speak of them that way.
I see non-communist organisers in those movements often critiquing PSL's participation in them
So libs?
Libs but also not just libs. And it's a common enough criticism that I think they must have a couple things backwards internally when it comes to coalition building and organizing competencies.
I can also vouch for this being an accurate criticism in my current location. I helped out with a recent action they organized and it was straight-up unsafe in a way that was easily preventable and they failed to have seemingly any plan for training people on what to do before, during, or after the action.
But don't forget that the left is small in the US and still learning. PSL can and likely will improve through experience and comrades here can be part of that.
CPUSA does not classify as any Marxist party
They have no international solidarity and I've met multiple prominent CPUSA members who vocally support reformism and the police state
What type of party is it when leaders can say stuff like this and not get purged?
At least DSA doesn't pretend to be anything they're not and still accomplish more material good than CPUSA lol
This is why I moved to build a PSL branch in my area instead of a CPUSA branch
What's the difference? Genuine question, I don't live in the US
Word choice and word choice alone. It's entirely meaningless.
The difference is that we have intermediary groups between the clubs; we don't have a branch system and a district leadership covers a wider area.
Also, I'm doubtful that the person is that familiar with CPUSA and I'm airing that doubt.
Anything I could do to prove I was in or affiliated with CPUSA is doxxable information, I'm not the same kind of person who posts about how he's in the Northern Virginia CPUSA on their Lemmy account which also has god knows what other identifiable information
My lackings in knowledge are areas which were not clarified for me appropriately while I tried to organize with CPUSA, right now I'm working with PSL because they do clarify these things and the people on the ground not only have more achievable goals and timeframes but are more widely connected in the local community. I say branch because that's the lingo PSL uses, and I assumed that it simply wasn't clarified for me while I was in CPUSA but clearly I'm not correct on that point, for what it matters.
I'm not anti-CPUSA by any means, I'm an ML who merely wishes for there to be a sizable socialist movement in the US by whatever means; however my experience with CPUSA outside of major city centers like DC and NYC though was severely dissapointing and I advise others to join whatever ML group is largest in their area or work with another ML org if there is no ML group in their area.
From your previous comments, you are clearly anti-CPUSA and do not represent the majority of the membership, who I've spoken to.
You even referred to something as simple as a "district" as a "branch," which is explained from the very beginning. We don't have a branch system. We go by wide swathes of areas called districts and then clubs and maybe collective if you go even smaller.
So I really don't believe you, no offense. It's kind-of like saying that you don't know who "William Z. Foster" is, tbh.
No offense or anything.
Unfortunately these chauvanistic attitudes like this are what hold back an organization with much potential, and instead opens the doors for other ML parties. This series of districts, clubs, and collectives is indicative of an anarchy of organization, an unaddressable problem while CPUSA remains as muddled of an organization as it famously is. This muddled organization leads to a fundamentally unquestionable leadership.
Despite intense criticism I even heard from members in NYC when I visited the party HQ (there was no Soviet gold in the basement, despite rumors), the self defeating policies and priorities of the CPUSA are not being changed at the pace they need to be to face the crisises we face head on. There's a reason most images of Palestinian protest feature PSL signs, and that the last emails I received before unsubscribing from the CPUSA newsletter was an art competition.
I ask that instead of dismissing well meaning criticism from fellow communists you take this criticism to mind and help make CPUSA become an organization worth championing instead of something which must be defended reluctantly.
It's not an anarchy of organization, but a hierarchy, actually.
Also, the policies change every 4 to 5 years and have to as we're a DemCent org.
You must listen to well-meaning criticisms directed at you instead of dismissing them, comrade. Especially since you're never been in the organization, afaik, and are critiquing it from an outside perspective.
What criticism are you even leveling, you're just mirroring what I say when you say that.
The difference is that we have intermediary groups between the clubs; we don't have a branch system and a district leadership covers a wider area.
At least DSA doesn't pretend to be anything they're not and still accomplish more material good than CPUSA lol
We do mutual aid in my district.
Also, CPUSA delegations have met with the Communist Party of Cuba and have had no incidents.
DSA has had these incidents though.
"They have no international solidarity and I've met multiple prominent CPUSA members who vocally support reformism and the police state"
Actually, the CPUSA has met several times with the Communist Party of China.
Also, we support prison and police abolition.
Also, we support prison and police abolition.
If CPUSA is an ML party and presumably, practices democratic centralism, can I ask why those CPUSA members in local branch has not been purged?
I'm not going to doxx them but their local branch only has ~4 members (and thus, have a complete control over that branch...) but it's in a cultural major and very politically engaged metropolitan US city so I assume they should be aware of their existence
CPUSA chapters being small, doing semi-random things, and supporting Dems is definitely a thing. They seem to vary wildly across chapters.
We don't expel members based on hearsay.
Yes, we practice DemCent.
Yes, CPUSA is an ML org.
No, we do not have "branches." We have districts and then clubs and sometimes even smaller collectives.
- Show
Show
Hmmmmm
Please specify your edits or otherwise you may come off as "edit trolling."
Well, it seems that the message is bigger, but fine, I will take your word for it, I suppose.
Right, and more details on how important the city that their district/club/collective are in is but the main substance is exactly the same
Well, we have several clubs in the Five Boroughs in NYC and we have maybe two for each of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. We have a couple places where we have clubs in cities.
California is a wasteland for us.
We're growing by leaps and bounds in the Mid-west and South (albeit too spread apart) but not so much in the West Coast.
For the record, the organization order is district > club > collective (I think there's a specific name for this but I forgot because it's not often used).
I can't help you here, but I trust that the things will turn out alright, but you can't always be sure, and I can't vouch for every single person in the org.
California is a wasteland for us.
That makes sense then. The annoying part is that these members are in a bunch of other orgs mostly to network and make connections for their own events/actions but they'll also spread pro-cop rhetoric to the point where they're well known in the organizing scene for that here
We've posted several pro-abolition articles in cpusa.org and even the PW, to a degree.
Like I said, I can't vouch for every member, and I've seen some real bad ones get kicked out.
Not saying that you shouldn't trust your lying eyes, but I can't always vouch for each and every person in the org.
CPUSA does not classify as any Marxist party
Actually, CPUSA is a Marxist-Leninist party, per its constitution, party program, and several documents.
Not necessarily attacking the CPUSA, but documents are meaningless without enforcing them. According the multiple documents the US should be doing a LOT of things different.
Yeah, I've noticed that some people speak highly of you all. I've even heard that the Socialist Party has been hanging in there as well (which now mostly has communists now, I think).
FRSO is technically a pre-party formation, but yea they are a ML organization focusing on building a working class party
i like how i can tell that youre actually an organizer when i see your posts on here lmao
That's because much of this website (Hexbear) hails from Reddit.
On Twitter and, I guess, Instagram, it's much more positive and I'm pretty much a regular on "CPUSA twitter" or whatever we call ourselves.
Unfortunately, I'm the only CPUSA member I know here and so I'm the only one giving "the other side of the story," so to speak.
It's kinda lonely, ngl
Hey i justed wanted to let you know that even though I'm not part of CPUSA and through years of lurking I've also noticed you are one of the few, if not the one, who gives the "other side of the story", wrt them, I still always appreciate and enjoy your comments and I am sorry if you feel lonely or isolated from others here. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either, who appreciates your presence here. Party differences aside. Maybe I'm being too sappy, just wanted to send good vibes to you
Too white, imho.
Also, it's common for certain subcultures to be bisected or divided depending on the community.
After chapo was destroyed and /r/communisim was taken over by Maoists, lots of people moved to Twitter and that's where lots of CPUSA members set up their social media accounts; communist Reddit hasnt' changed much compared to communist Insta and communist Twitter.
There are also many smaller orgs that do good work and are commie but they're regional or city-specific.
A good question to ask when shopping for an org is to ask who is organizing? Not just attending an action, but doing real world organizing. Focus on those groups in your area.
Also make sure that you're comfortable leaving or disagreeing with your org at all times. If something goes south, you want the option of supporting the right side. The stuff with PSL you mention is what happens when comrades make bad decisions in an attempt to save face and protect each other and would've been avoided if the chapters in question had discipline.
I don't know where you are but I hear mixed things about DSA.
My experience with the DSA in my area makes them laughable at best. This kinda shit from their members or cacuses makes total sense in my experience.
Los Angeles area which despite what people say as far as I can tell is packed to the fucking gills with CHUDs and unscratched liberals
What do people say, that LA is packed with Communists? Haha
I don't know LA DSA but I wouldn't place great hope in them either.
You can join DSA without dues. But obviously do so with a plan and reasonable goals of what you want to get out of it because overall it's an incoherent reformist group that spends most of its time fighting about or talking about things like this. Don't expect too much out of it and it can be a fine first step to getting involved.
You could also just join a different and better group. See who's organizing local pro-Palestine actions, maybe?
There's a lot of baby leftists, new ex-Democrats, and people that just don't have a deep theoretical backing joining DSA. It's an excellent group to join and have a real shot at influencing the political line, making sure actions your chapter takes are meaningful, and actually advance Socialism. YMMV based on what chapters are nearby.
If you personally have a ton of patience and organizing/manipulation skills, yes. Or if you have a core group of people to work with already.
Without those you'll most likely be one correct person getting dismissed by many wrong people.
Lol. The fucking president of an AES country (or ANY COUNTRY) makes time to sit down and talk with you and you skip out? What in the entire fuck.
I've always defended DSA, even against many, many criticisms that are lobbed at them by other MLs, but this is... wrong.
So... wrong-headed of them to do this.
Let's say that you are in opposition to someone's political project. Imo there are there are four major options available:
- To make pleas
To ask or demand that they cease a course of action such as a war or that they release political prisoners like Leonard Peltier or Mumia Abu-Jamal.
- To listen to your opponent so as to better critique them or to get better information about what moves they are going to make
This is useful in a Khrushchev-type situation because you can quote them directly, debunk their bullshit, and if you're lucky you might even be able to get ahead of where they have signalled they are taking things to provide pre-emptive critique with which to strengthen the counter-movement.
- To grill your opponent
This is more in the style of the dying art of the adversarial journalist. You throw difficult or impossible questions at them and try to trip them up or expose more information than they otherwise would. Unlikely that this would be tolerated from a "friendly" delegation that is being extended the offer of a private audience to much extent.
- Conscientious objection
This is where you are completely opposed to them or where they are doing something unconscionable at the moment. For best effect, attend and then when the hot-button issue gets mentioned or you bring it up, walk out at their response.
(Of course there are a million other options depending on the circumstances such as choosing to meet with king Charles so you can keep your hands in your pockets and spit in his face or to talk enthusiastically about the French or October Revolutions.)
These people are supposed to be part of a political vanguard.
The fact that they are playing at politics like it's a fucking highschool popularity contest speaks volumes about how deeply unserious and oblivious they are. I would have a modicum of respect for them if they had chosen to act in a way that advances their political ends to some extent, even if I disagreed with their goals. This, however, is dismal.
I hope the Cuban government rejects those people who didn't meet with Diaz-Canel and instead met with the opposition leaders next time they apply for a visa.
I would have a modicum of respect for them if they had chosen to act in a way that advances their political ends to some extent, even if I disagreed with their goals. This, however, is dismal.
They met up with Cuban dissent groups. That's their political goal: to network with Cuban dissent groups in Cuba and Cuban gusanos in Miami (she mentioned how she focuses her organizing on gusanos in Miami) with the ultimate political goal of toppling the Cuban government.
She's an op.
Oh goddamn.
Without wanting to cause drama, I have a very low bar for my expectations of the DSA (especially the executive end of it) but despite that I'm still surprised to hear about this.
On a personal level the only reason I'd ever get involved with the DSA would be to network with people on a grassroots level, especially where there aren't other options in my region, or to foment a split.
Every time I speak to a self-proclaimed "democratic socialist" or I hear about a DemSoc org invariably I come away from it even more disappointed in them. It's funny how these clowns will chastise people like me for "advocating for bloody and violent revolution" and how reformism is the correct/only way or how I need to change my rhetoric or my approach because I will "lose them"; I always respond to them telling them that they are my ideological opponent and that I neither want their approval nor am I seeking it. This usually upsets them because they tend to have a serious case of political Main Character Syndrome where they presume that everyone agrees with them, where they think that they have a special claim over the term "socialist", and they assume that everyone wants their involvement:
"I don't want to play with you!!"
"Good, I ain't playin'. Go home because you aren't wanted here."Ugh this sucks... maybe I can help.
Can you link me to any evidence that clearly shows this person is allowing with gusanos in Miami or other people trying to overthrow Cuba's government? I will work on a resolution to expel her from DSA and get it percolating in my chapter.
I have no clear links, so it's not actionable. There's enough plausible deniability that she could wiggle her way out.
From her article, there's this part:
Second, it limits the effectiveness of our external messaging and organizing, especially in regions of the country with large Hispanic and Cuban-American populations. While it is true that there are large sections of these diaspora communities, particularly Cuban exiles, who are hardcore reactionaries and have petty-bourgeois class interests, it would be a mistake to treat these communities as monolithic or immovable. In my own experience organizing in Miami, there is a large presence of Cubans in every local struggle, whether it be university students and faculty walking out against our far-right state legislature’s censorship of education, or local Starbucks workers’ struggling to unionize their stores.
So, she's based in Miami, the principle hive where all Cuban gusanos are located at. This by itself is an extremely tenuous link. But someone in the other thread dug this up:
He is one of the few journalists who cover the persecution of the San Isidro Movement and its leader Luis Manuel Otero Alcántara. In his journalistic work, he thinks it’s very important to provide the most complete information possible without getting carried away by personal feelings.
The San Isidro movement being a color revolution with NED funding.
These two facts, along with the complete disrespect for the Cuban president, paints a certain picture. It's extraordinary unlikely that someone who fraternizes with Cuban gusanos and met up with a journalist and other people closely tied with that abortive color revolution would just be someone who got tricked. There's a particular political objective she's trying to accomplish.
I don't think this is enough to kick her out, but she's someone to watch out for.
It seems like enough is there to get her off NPC or at least out of the International Committee. I can't trust this person to represent DSA or it's members correctly.
Maria in particular met with anti-government opposition groups
Gulag is merciful.
Castro and Che would've put them against the wall in the early period.
This was a coordinated effort by Trot entryists.
I think most people here like to joke about icepicks, but remember that these people are genuinely enemies of the working class.
Huh, my trot language filter was tripped by that person in that thread saying they were one of their friends and most effective comrades (salt members here say something pretty similar every time its one of their birthdays). Didn't mention it because why would I
Can't read any additional posts, can someone post a nitter link or something?
This worked for me. May rate limit Jesus be on your side.
https://nitter.esmailelbob.xyz/DrBlobb/status/1781125384538403217
Like, why did they even go to Cuba in the first place if they were going to do this? Why even attend?
To go to the beach and contact with the color revolution leader apparently
Paid vacation.
Always analyze DSA drama through the lens of downwardly-mobile professionals who care exclusively about ensuring they get paid by DSA instead of working for a living.
I know someone in DSA that lobbied their chapter to create a pretty large fund to be handled solely by and for people of a specific identity who then alienated everyone else in the group and gave all the money to themselves.
I have to respect the grift.
The DSA will reform the Democratic Party. Just you wait! They may not have moved the Overton window in over 40 years but it’ll happen any day now.
Mike Davis was talking about this occurring in the 80s in Prisoners of the American Dream
Last I saw they were defending her. Absolute clown shit. She should just be a Democrat Instead of pretending to be anything further left.
"Headed off to my next DSA meeting, fellow comrades. Who wants to go do a solidarity?"
- these motherfuckers, specifically named Maria, representing the Reform & Revolution Caucus, and Renée, representing the Socialist Majority Caucus, and not all socialists everywhere, in case there was any confusion about accusing specifically named feds of doing fed stuff in a post about them doing fed stuff
It is not good to fed-jacket the entire DSA, though I understand that this incident stirs up feelings.
It is concerning that we take allegations of being feds more seriously for anonymous forum posters than we do IRL people whose names have been reported.
- these motherfuckers, specifically named Maria, representing the Reform & Revolution Caucus, and Renée, representing the Socialist Majority Caucus, and not all socialists everywhere, in case there was any confusion about accusing specifically named feds of doing fed stuff in a post about them doing fed stuff
Wait.. again? I'm getting serious r/cth era vibes of a DSA delegation behaving like.. well, this. Anyone else remember what I'm talking about?
Actually... No.
Damn, I hope this isn't another case of collective amnesia in leftist spaces again...
