They're trying to kill Paizo for being too based. Allowing the first unions in our TTRPG market? No fucking way! Don't buy from Wizards ever again you hogs
WOTC wants 25% of all revenue generated by large third party D&D publishers
:data-laughing:
This won't kill WOTC's competitors, though it may create a fun game of "don't say the Wizard's name" where people are publishing D&D books and meticulously avoiding saying that it's a D&D book. I expect a big time lawsuit where someone has to explain to a judge that their game about rolling d20s and adding modifiers to them is totally different from WOTC's game about rolling d20s and adding modifiers to them.
The real target here is Virtual Tabletops and similar programs. WOTC tried to be the first to market on that scene back in 4e, but the project leader died in a freak accident and as a result other companies beat them to it. Now they want to carve out the biggest piece of the pie they can - and if Roll20, Foundry, Fantasy Grounds and the others don't pay up they won't be able to support D&D 6, which is potentially their largest share of users.
I think this bodes poorly for the actual viability of D&D 6 as a game. A lot of the decision that WOTC seems to be making, seems to be informed by the practices of AAA Video Game publishers, and their aggressive rent-seeking over cash-cows; and assuming that they can make the same kinds of money in what isn't necessarily the same kind of market.
I do wonder how this will go. I know DnD is way more popular today than it was when 4e came out. I think WotC thinks they can get away with it now.
Well, the problems that WOTC is gonna face are embedded in the nature of the product itself. AAA Videogame publishers can add whatever stupid bullshit rent-seeking behavior they want to their games, because fundamentally they're a piece of software that requires specific hardware to run it; hardware that they directly own & operate in the form of hosting servers. You cannot play fuckin COD MCMXXXVI- Operation Eternal Ukraine, or Genshin: Daycare Raiders without using the servers owned & operated by those companies.
Pen & Paper TTRPGs are a fundamentally different kind of product; they may both be information products, and intellectual property. But one requires an actual physical hardware device to run, and the other by definition doesn't. This means that they are either trying to make D&D 6 more like a digital product/a videogame, or they know they are making a bad fucking game & they're trying to compensate by extorting revenue out of 3rd-party intermediaries.
Honestly do they not understand that most TTRPG groups could legit use most any other rules-set standard and fuck off if it becomes too much of a clusterfuck? Also like zoom/FB video chat and virtual tabletop emulators are low cost or free and plain just easy to use. WOTC also just cancelled a lot of DnD video games for no fucking reason (prolly had a lot of NFT crap in them is my guess). Legit WOTC acting like vampires not wanting to admit there's no more blood to squeeze out without murdering and butchering the golden goose of DnD.
WotC isn't just selling a ruleset. Its a lifestyle brand. Plenty of people are introduced to TTRPGs via video games like Baldur's Gate or Let's Plays like Critical Role or Penny Arcade's Acquisition's Incorporated (which occasionally turn into their own TV franchises, like The Legend of Vox Machina).
Yes, technically you can fuck off and do your own kissing-cousin ruleset. And if you don't like the NFL you can play Arena Football. But its a significantly smaller market with virtually non-existent exposure.
D&D grows as a franchise because of its market saturation. Their product is largely just the branding. Give Shadowrun or Onyx Path or Mechwarrior a Matel-sized advertising budget and they'll be competitive in a heartbeat.
Thing is I feel Stranger Things did the most heavy lifting on making DnD mainstream by way of having characters styled as 80s nerds doing basic gygaxian dungeon delving, nowadays though I feel WotC has the possibility of strangling content creators if they get their hand stuck in the proverbial cookie jar because lets face it capitalists aren't smart on understanding factors of long term success. DnD as all lifestyle brands requires a avid community acting as a self feeding oroborus (YouTubers, supplement OGL makers, streamers). The tightening of the OGL to DnD 6 gives a hint though that WotC wants more at the cost of harming part of their community ecosystem (i.e. people able to make some income from making in certain cases far better supplements and adventures than the WotC writing team). For those that remember 4e a similar thing occurred in which WotC created subpar crap, had a game system that sucked, and tried to monetize DnD with everything you can imagine (remeber DnD heroclix or the weird card game?).
Thing is I feel Stranger Things did the most heavy lifting on making DnD mainstream by way of having characters styled as 80s nerds doing basic gygaxian dungeon delving
Idk if Stranger Things bouyed D&D or just jumped on the bandwagon. But its notable that they're playing a TSR game rather than Warhammer or Rolemaster or GURPs or even some made-up generic analog. It isn't as though the 80s had a deficit of table-top alternatives.
DnD as all lifestyle brands requires a avid community acting as a self feeding oroborus (YouTubers, supplement OGL makers, streamers). The tightening of the OGL to DnD 6 gives a hint though that WotC wants more at the cost of harming part of their community ecosystem (i.e. people able to make some income from making in certain cases far better supplements and adventures than the WotC writing team).
Disney works as a lifestyle brand despite being rigorously litigated and enclosed. If anything, it works precisely because so much historically public content (everything from Grim's Fairy Tales to Greek Tragedy to Shakespeare) is cornered off into an exclusive private domain.
But it does also hinge on WotC vomiting up a Disney-tier of high quality production and regular content. If they just abandon the old TSR game formula, an audience nostolgic for 80s-era content isn't likely to follow.
One reason Paizo had so much room to grow was because WotC abandoned the 2e/3e framework for a more MMORPG style of game in 4e. Suddenly, Pathfinder was the D&D alternative that actually felt like a D&D game. 5e reclaimed a bunch of that space (and pf2e didn't really do Paizo any favors). If they walk away again, I imagine either Paizo or some other developer will happily milk the old 1.0 OGL for all its worth in their absence.
I think Stranger Things introduced a lot of newbies to the TTRPG scene and also removed some of the leftover satanic panic and 1980s revenge of the nerds stigma to it by incorporating it well into a 80s send off series about kids growing up (something that resonates with millennials and zoomers and tbh even genxers and boomers). This injection of new blood also coincided with the new financialization of DnD (mugs, books, tshirts, all the branded lifestyle crap we now and love). As of now I honestly feel that the most likely outcome is that if DnD is truly horrible on OGL designers then we could see a mass exodus of popular OGL makers to Paizo or other systems which could then drag along Youtubers and eventually streamers (especially if DnD tries pushing the liveservice digitized market they always seem to dance around but also mention is there and ready to be used to extract more from the IP during investor statements).
I'm still upset that VLARP let's plays never really took off. So... fingers crossed
I expect a big time lawsuit where someone has to explain to a judge that their game about rolling d20s and adding modifiers to them is totally different from WOTC’s game about rolling d20s and adding modifiers to them.
So this is connected more to board games, but I can't imagine it's legally different for ttrpgs: my understanding is that game mechanics are impossible to copyright or patent and very hard to keep competitors from ripping off. Wotc copyrighted "tapping" a card by turning it sideways to show it's been used in Magic the Gathering, but in MY card game you "exhaust/utilize/bow" a card sideways which is legally distinct. WotC can force people to work around them but they can't actually prevent people from making third party content compatible with their game.
The real target here is Virtual Tabletops and similar programs.
As I've said before, I really wonder if they did this deal badly so they can try and mask their real intentions when they make the deal again
Wizards really working overtime to remind me of why I tried to get my group to switch to Pathfinder
Trust me, I keep trying to get them to make the switch. Pathfinder has more customization and the Summoner class, which as a huge Monster Design Nerd is very up my alley. My players are just resistant because they see the character creation as more "complicated".
I am literally foaming at the mouth and begging them to release the synthesist archetype so we can have a go-to magical girl transformation with the summoner
You can already kinda do that in many respects, there is an archetype called sterling dynamo where you can replace your arms with guns and weapons and stuff. Summoner can already summon constructs too. Personally I think Sterling Dynamo Archetype + Inventor would be the best flavor
Oh my god that sounds amazing! Now I want to use that archetype to make like... the midway point between a magical girl and a cthulhutech style tager
Theyve already confirmed theyre gonna do it at some point its just a guessing game as to when. If it isn't soon I will die from desire
Hey cool maybe I'll be able to find a group willing play literally anything other than the latest edition of D&D
My Vampire the Requiem 2e and Changeling the Lost books just fucking sit on the shelf gathering dust
I got my group to play Werewolf: the Forsaken 2e by being the only one willing to GM lol, works like a charm
I'm a frequent GM and really love GMing and still can't fucking get people to play
Also I don't have any friends which is probably a bigger factor here
Mmm, it's tricky, with adults you have to work around schedules so much. One thing that is probably helpful is that I just run for my family. If they weren't interested I don't know who else I'd try to play with.
GMing
I'm the forever GM because I'm the only one who will bother reading the books and thinking stuff up. I just want to plaaay.
Hey cool maybe I’ll be able to find a group willing play literally anything other than the latest edition of D&D
Axe & Sickle has been running a Westmarches campaign in 3.5e for almost two years now. The link to their old intro post under /c/ttrpg is dead, but I'll happily send you the Discord if you're interested in joining.
My Vampire the Requiem 2e and Changeling the Lost books just fucking sit on the shelf gathering dust
God damn, I would love to do some old school WoD (or even some of the new stuff or Exalted or whatever). If you're serious about playing or running, let me know.
Alternatively, if anyone is feeling really crazy, I've got a CoD Mage one-shot I wrote and had the crazy idea to publish to Storyteller's Vault that I'll happily run online.
Spreading the good word of 5e.tools is the best i can do. Itd probably be better to play a different system, but eh
Let's say, hypothetically, in my creative work that does not claim any association (implicitly or otherwise) with the D&D property. Let's say, as an example, I am totally using the idea of Mind Flayers but not using D&D words/images for them.
In in the rare not-gonna-happen scenario that I make big buxs, are they likely to try to come after me?
There are very few original concepts in D&D. I think their only actually original monster is the Beholder.
Gotta real talk. Pathfinder is way cooler with monsters because they go and interview people from different cultures or even hire them (one dev is an Alaskan Native) to build a more diverse cast of stories and folktales. I was clamoring to get Strength of Thousands because it is such a breath of fresh of air to get a non-Western fantasy setting published for once.
The Mosquito Witch, for example, was heavily influenced by Native American and African folklore such as the Adze and Soucouyant
YES! SoT/Mwangi Expanse book was great for that, and there's a ton in various other books since then. Have you read Impossible Lands yet? Tons of good stuff there too! Breath of fresh air!
From the word of Gary Gygax himself, dated January 26, 2005:
[...] the Displacer beasts I ripped off from the novel, Voyage of the Spaceship Beagle...if I recall rightly. That was one of the monsters in there - they sucked out something from humans with their tentacles, I don't remember!"
I think you're right about Flumphs, though. WOTC/Hasbro owns the copyrighted names of these things, but they're generally folklore, based heavily on someone else's IP whose estate hasn't enforced copyright, or too generic. So, they go the Games Workshop route of using original copyrightable names (like Space Marines vs Adeptus Astartes, it's Displacer Beast instead of Coeurl), so other companies can call them something different and execute their abilities different enough and probably be okay (if they can afford to fight it in court).
Flumphs are actually in PF2E, so I'm pretty sure it was covered by OGL, but Beholders obviously arent
Mind flayers pre-date D&D as a concept, used in Lovecraftian fiction but not with that specific name. Gygax came up with the term “mind flayer” as a specific creature, but the book “The Burrowers Beneath” by Brian Lumley and its art inspired his creation heavily in his own words. Plus Lovecraft came up with Cthulhu from his own nightmares.
Chthonians from the burrowers beneath are large squidlike creatures that can psychically dominate and control lesser creatures, and reproduce by parasites in host bodies of other creatures. Not to mention Cthulhu himself who was created before Mind Flayers and is the obvious inspiration as he is a large, soul-eating betentacled humanoid
So I guess it depends on if you use the term “mind flayer” specifically or just pull from the Cthulhu and Lovecraftian mythos more generally
I think I'm ripping off mostly vibes and aesthetics but making up my own lore as I go.
The only published content I'm aware of is that GURPS' D&D knockoff line calls them "Mindwarpers", and they have yet to be sued.
They most certainly will come after you!
“They Sue Regularly” The Many Lawsuits Of TSR – Prime
"In 1992, Gary Gygax created another fantasy RPG called Dangerous Dimensions for GDW, the company that publishes Traveller. However, TSR was there again with a suit that would be laughed out of court today. They hadn’t yet learned the lessons Games Workshop would learn about copyright and mechanics–their initial complaint was that Dangerous Dimensions (which had since been changed to Dangerous Journeys: Mythus) was too derivative of AD&D.
A look at their complaint reveals… a lot of creative interpretation of the word “derivative.”
(2) The Heroic Persona Attractiveness rules in MYTHUS (pages 18, 102 and 391) are derived from the Comeliness rules in the AD&D UA (pages 6-7); TSR’s DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (pages 61-62); and the WORLD OF GREYHAWK boxed set’s Glossography (pages 33-34).
(4) The concept of adjusting a character’s abilities corresponding to its age found in MYTHUS (pages 104-105) is derived from the similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 13).
Here’s a couple of choice examples. Heaven forbid you have age adjust a character’s abilities. And as we all know, famously, AD&D invented Elves and Dwarves and was never sued by the Tolkien estate, not even once (they totally were):
(6) In MYTHUS (pages 94-95), the non-human player races, including gnomes, dwarves, alfar (elves) and alfen, are derived from similar non-human player races, including gnomes, dwarves, elves and halflings, in the AD&D DEITIES AND DEMIGODS book (pages 106-110); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 15-17); the AD&D UA (pages 8-12); and the AD&D LL (pages 91-95).
And the mentioning of Deities and Demigods is a particular overdose of irony, considering that particular book is full of figures derived from myths. Other popular things that TSR wanted to sue over include the idea of a character class or job or vocation:
(7) The MYTHUS concept of character vocations in MYTHUS (pages 13 and 70-71) is derived from the character class concept in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 18-33); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 16-21); and the AD&D UA (pages 12-25 and 74-75).
Or generating stats…
(8) In MYTHUS (page 67), the concept of and the method by which the game characters’ attributes are defined by randomly-generated numbers, and the players’ choices of vocations precede and alter such attribute generation, are derived from a similar concept and method in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 11-12) and the AD&D UA (page 74). Advertisement
The list goes on, taking issue with almost every single point of the game’s rules, painting with a broad enough brush that TSR could then theoretically sue any and all other RPG companies out there for “using dice to determine the outcome of an action.” Let me leave you with this:
“(36) The “First Aid” skill in MYTHUS (pages 28 and 165) is derived from the AD&D “Cure Light Wounds” spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 43) and the AD&D OA (page 57).”
Just posting to say that Pathfinder is the best DND and Pathfinder 2e is the best Pathfinder. I mean I'm playing 1e now but I really like how 2e handles a lot of things.
I did pick up Pathfinder 2E a while ago, but I never actually played it because when I read it, it felt almost too much like a "Superhero" game; or like how people described 4E working. And it just didn't seem very attractive to me as a D&D alternative.
How does it actually play?
All the feats giving special actions is a little 4e-esque, but it lacks what I saw as the big problem with 4e that all characters basically had the same moves - a fighter could do physical damage, a cleric would do the same thing but with radiant, the wizard with fire, but it all felt the same. Pf2e's action system doesn't make me feel like me and my party are all doing the same thing and everyone has their niche.
Unlike 1e though, the math is very very tight and unoptimized builds suffer for it. If your ancestry doesn't give that extra +1 to your primary stat bonus, you're gonna feel it.
Mostly I really like how simple the action system is. No move, swift, standard. Just three actions. My friends find this much easier.
Outside of combat it actually plays not too different from 1e, except that skill feats make some interesting options and the proficiency system means if you specialize in something you will be better than your teammates, but the gap is less severe than 1e where you can just put everything you got into stealth and be absurdly good at it.
If your ancestry doesn’t give that extra +1 to your primary stat bonus, you’re gonna feel it.
They did actually just change this in a recent errata. You can just choose any 2 boosts on any ancestry. So you could choose to do +3 boosts +1 flaw as normal on an Elf, or you can forgo having a flaw for any two boosts. Makes that issue far easier to handle
Oh wow this opens a lot of doors. I'm sure there are some ancestry feats that were waiting for this chance to be used in other classes.
Yeah I'm personally gonna use the adjustment on elves all the time. The constitution malus is really rough.
Yes! Everyone needs con and an ancestry with a malus to it is terrible no matter what class you play.
How is Starfinder? Been kinda interested in getting into a scifi rpg
It's pretty good for a Star Wars/Mass Effect space opera type story. And Fly Free or Die is a great adventure path where you play a buncha space truckers making friends and running from corpos in your cool stolen spaceship. Very fun theme.
Mechanically, it fits in a weird spot between 1e and 2e. I don't like its big emphasis on constantly upgrading your gear and buying new big flashy weapons, but the game and setting is mostly very fun.
Really like the space working class trucker vibe then (always loved the OG Alien and space western style gritty sci fi), I'll have to check it out then!
OG Alien
I forgot how working class the aesthetic was in the original until I rewatched it during the initial COVID months.
This really sucks. I don't think it will effect anyone big, but indie DND hacks were always one of the easiest ways to get into tabletop game design with the most support, both from the community and the publisher. This will both discourage people to try DND hacks and potentially make indie DND devs more competitive against each other since they're competing for smaller and smaller pots now
Honestly an insult that this agreement still uses the OGL name
It absolutely will affect everyone..There's a summary here: twitter journalist summary
ALL COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS will require their creators to report their work to Wizards of the Coast.
You owe them royalties on all fantasy ttrpg they think is related, based on your revenue.
They have rights to forever republish any work that they deem related, without your say so ans without giving you any revenue..
Don't forget that TSR sued people for using characters that were derivative of elves, and have shut them down...
I know Paizo and Pathfinder are way better, but part of the reason why I stuck to DnD 5e for so long is because the third party content I liked wasn't made for PF. Also my group is still firmly in 5e so I have had no time to explore other systems. Kinda bummed because 5e was the first ttrpg I've ever played.
I'm kinda wondering if they are releasing a bad deal on purpose so the backlash makes them change the deal so it's "better" in comparison to the current license.
What content do you like? Odds are its been ported recently. 2e has seen a lot of development recently.
I like Kobold Press's stuff. I do know they have some stuff converted, but it seems like their recent stuff isn't, unless I've looked wrong. I like Critical Role's stuff, Metis Media, but they are written in DnD so I'm stuck for now.
I do hope to see some development for 2e soon at least. As for now, I'll probably stick with 5e for a bit longer as I'm playing a game in 5e and I want to get better at DMing with a system I'm familiar with first before I make the switch.
Do you have any good content to recommend that is is both 5e and 2e?
Battlezoo has both, its generally considered to be the best 2e 3rd party.
Its actually called Archives of Nethys, no idea why they don't use that for the url though.
There is also https://pathbuilder2e.com/ for character creation, also officially sanctioned.
This is some real bad shit but WOC is really miss representing what this all means. The original license will still be in effect, we'll have to see the full text of the new license but there is no way for them to unilaterally invalidate stuff already published under the old one, however they likely have a clause in the new one that makes accepting it to publish new content invalidate all your content published under the old one.
I know our legal system sucks, but that seems like it wouldn't hold in court. I kinda wonder if they made this license so the backlash will make people accept another license?
We'll have to see what all 9,000 words of the new license says but they're not just dealing with small homebrew creators this time, there are real companies with real money and lawyers able to fight them on this. Real info should be coming out in the next couple days.
Paizo has made no comment so I think they are on it. The others I can think of are Kobold Press which I'm not sure how powerful they are, and Critical Role which I'm not sure about because on one hand they have been distancing themselves from established DnD lore and established their own publishing company, but they also have a good working relationship with WotC. Any other companies you can think of?
Pretty much any TTRPG that came out after 2000 based on d20 system is built under the OGL 1, so that's a lot of companies although you did list heavy hitters I can think of. However I know a bunch of video games are also based off the d20 system under the OGL, I haven't looked into it but if I remember right KOTOR was, which means even bio-ware could come out dick swinging.
Guess they probably didn't just use the OGL then, still a fair number of other games have. This is gonna be interesting shit show. You may be right that this a back handed tactic to push a slightly less terrible license but no matter what it's going to shake up the rpg community in a big way.
I already do not buy from Wizards (or Paizo for the most part) because they already lost the fight for intellectual property when it comes to rules to third party free online databases that just republishes all their text word for word. The first publisher to take down the ability for players to easily look up any rule on their phone without paying or signing up for anything will immediately show the rest of the publishers why you cannot do that and they all know it. The rules themselves are in effect public domain.
Just play Basic Fantasy and stop supporting WOTC Hacks... The rules PDFs are free and the print copy is like $5..
Don't let Capitalists hijack your imagination. You don't need a $50 expansion module to learn how to modify the 45 pages of rules to play a wizard subset, just role play that bitch yourself, Comrade! :fidel-balling:
Luckily Paizo hasnt done anything like that, though they do take down anyone that posts the full text of the stories in their PDFs. But that isn't mechanical.
