So I decided to go and do a startup with an old coworker of mine about two years ago because I actually really like programming and I had enough money to live off my savings for awhile. So I'm building an open source piece of software, we have no real monetization scheme and that's fine. Maybe some rich company will adopt us and we can get a service contract, or we can trick some investor in giving us some money and we'll burn it all on bloated salaries.
The problem is that I've been doing this for 2 years and I'm throughly burned out. I've been working like a dog, 12+ hour days, rarely any time off. I don't have any hobbies anymore and my relationship with my partner isn't great. I want this to be useful to people because it has the real capacity to make peoples jobs easier. It abstracts away like 90% of what data engineers have to do and in my opinion it is actually innovative (fully outside of capitalism). I'm just at this point where I'm mentally done with the idea and I just don't have the energy anymore to see the rest of it through. I've been getting in a lot of arguments with my cofounder recently about product direction and I think it's just me being anxious about getting this adopted. We still don't know who our target users are and I just want anyone to use it and I don't care about 'personas' and product market fit.
I'm not going to drop the link here because I don't want it coming up in a google search but you can DM me and I can show you what I've done. I honestly don't know what I should do at this point, just quit and get a real job or take a break and then just try to trudge through it.
Thanks of listening.
idk much about tech startups from the inside, but my lay understanding is it's a business with a high failure rate that favors people with few scruples and rich parents to support them when they cut their losses and try again. if you're no longer personally interested in the product you're building and aren't maniacally devoted to the prospect of striking it rich and selling out, I'm not sure what you're doing that's worth sacrificing so much of your life essence for.
Yeah I think this summarizes my personal conflict well. I'm not sure my co-founder has the same concept of money as me. He wants money but he is terrible at profit maximizing and I'm not too interested in helping him try to do that. I honestly don't know what I'm doing and I need help.
and I’m not too interested in helping him try to do that. I honestly don’t know what I’m doing and I need help
Assuming your perspective is correct, seems like your co-founder is useless and contributing fuck all
Here's what I suggest if you want to try and be a successful capitalist
Try to buy out his shares for as little money as possible to gain full control of the company. Learn how to do the business part by yourself along the way. The most valuable tech companies of all time in America and China are almost all founded and headed by people with pure engineering backgrounds. YCombinator founders thinks it's trivial and easy for the entire founding team to all be technical and have 0 business/marketing/finance/product/sales skills and still be successful
Learn from https://www.amazon.com/High-Growth-Handbook-Elad-Gil-audiobook/dp/B07FSWFWPQ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=high+growth+handbook&qid=1673853429&s=audible&sprefix=high+growth+%2Caudible%2C125&sr=1-1
https://www.ycombinator.com/library/
https://www.youtube.com/@ycombinator
https://www.amazon.com/The-Lean-Startup-Eric-Ries-audiobook/dp/B005MM7HY8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BZH6ZH23RN27&keywords=lean+startup&qid=1673853358&sprefix=lean+startu%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Zero-to-One-audiobook/dp/B00M284NY2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=LU49DHW04FXN&keywords=Zero+to+one&qid=1673853391&s=audible&sprefix=zero+to+one%2Caudible%2C125&sr=1-1
Come acquire Hexbear when you become a billionaire
On what authority do you share these links under the assumption that the knowledge they contain actually works? Quite the curiosity.
High praise, reviews, and recognition from founders of multi-billion dollar companies who have figured out the business part of running a business who started out as coders
Look, I know online leftists like to say that CEOs and whatever are useless but realistically, many of these tech company founders have made extremely smart business decisions that have gotten them this far (in addition to many other things, of course). Google is really the only company I can think of where the business sense was not amazing but the engineering was that good
They don't deserve their wealth of course but some are influential and important to a company's success
The CPC has acknowledged that some corporate leaders with business sense are incredibly useful for the development of a business and economy
Exploitation requires intelligence to execute intelligently as well
Steve Jobs and Lisa Su turned around Apple and AMD when they were both on the brink of becoming bankrupt to making the best products in their respective markets today and wildly successful
I don't remember which interview I saw but Tony Xu took on Uber Eats, GrubHub, and Postmates and won with Doordash by making good business decisions to be fully vertically integrated which they discovered with intelligent market research and understanding of their clients' needs. He explains his business strategy and it's not something everybody would come up with
Eric Yuan used to work at Cisco as a VP and tried to convince his bosses to improve the product as he saw fit. They denied his request so he left and went on to create the most successful and by far best teleconferencing app, Zoom
You shit on Elon Musk and you're correct. If Elon Musk was in any of the people's above position, he would most likely crash and burn the entire ship. Like he's doing with Twitter right now
When the founders of a company are able to control what their hundreds or thousands of workers are doing, of course their decision matters a lot
I forgot the name of the essay that I read but it talks about how it's foolish for communists to think of the rich, the powerful, and the bourgeoisie as just stupid buffoons because they don't deserve their power and wealth. They are cunning and many intelligently exploit as efficiently and safely as they can. Many prominent characters on Wall St. clearly understand Marxist theory based on their interviews. Don't do some reverse Halo Effect for the bourgeoisie
Have you seen how US financial imperialism works? It's incredible. None of us could ever create anything near as intricate, effective, and powerful given their resources. Unless Michael Hudson is reading this
Look, I know online leftists like to say that CEOs and whatever are useless but realistically, many of these tech company founders have made extremely smart business decisions that have gotten them this far
You sure they didn't just luck out and then pretended it was a grand vision all along? From my experience in the business world it's all arbitrary bullshit and smarts only get you so far, if you make it big it's either through already existing connections or just dumb luck.
Also I get that CEOs have to have SOME organizational skills but those aren't really that rare or special.
Lmfao "they dont deserve their wealth but they are wealthy because they are highly intelligent" is a contradiction.
But my main genuine curiosity being, I just want to know why you are interested in all of this, have a sort of faith in capitalism being benevolent, and yet come here. What is unappealing to you about r/neoliberal or similar?
Never said they were stupid but I get your point in a way, come back to talk about the main point when you are calmer.
Your main point is that you associate being intelligent with inherent virtuosity
When did I ever say capitalism was benevolent? You just assumed that because I acknowledged the abilities of some capitalists
Why is "they dont deserve their wealth but they are wealthy because they are highly intelligent" a contradiction?
Replace highly intelligent with any other adjective. "Great Britain doesn't deserve their wealth but they are wealthy because they are militarily and economically powerful". ""Elon Musk doesn't deserve his wealth but he is wealthy because he is at scamming government officials"
It's you that's weird, treating intelligence as a morally good trait
Your main point is that you associate being intelligent with inherent virtuosity
Sorry what the actual fuck are you on about? My main point is that I am genuinely confused as to what experience you have as to trust and share this business knowledge assuming that it would work? Furthermore, why did you share pro-capitalist knowledge in the first place? What makes you think spreading more individualism and more competition is a good idea?
Furthermore, “they dont deserve their wealth but they are wealthy because they are highly intelligent” is still a contradiction too btw because it assumes that one of the main reasons the demonic elite are wealthy is because they are "highly intelligent", ie. assuming that there is a certain rational order to capitalism where an input (being "highly intelligent" as a business owner) will lead to an output (becoming incredibly wealthy). In that way they do "deserve" their wealth because it is an expected output, a reward.
Furthermore, why did you share pro-capitalist knowledge in the first place? What makes you think spreading more individualism and more competition is a good idea?
I don't think it's a good idea. But OP came in here as a literal capitalist asking for help for their startup (lol) and so I really doubt calling them out would discourage them. I'm just entertaining the guy, that's all. It's not like I'm gonna suddenly gonna somehow convert people here to being liberals
Why would the outputs of a machine not depend on the input? There is no "luck" in the real world. Yea, some people have better opportunities and resources but why would our world not have a rational order to things? Being highly intelligent as a business owner on average, will lead to more success than being a dumb business owner, all else being equal. I really don't know what's so controversial about that lol. Also, I still never said they deserved their wealth. I really have no idea where you're getting that from
There is no “luck” in the real world.
What?
Being highly intelligent as a business owner on average, will lead to more success than being a dumb business owner, all else being equal.
The "all else" which includes stuff like pre-existing privilege being 99% of the determinant of your success, yeah.
You have some serious brainworms to scrub away from your mind.
"Um acscshkhkly metaphisically speaking everything is deterministic so there's no such thing as luck"
Come on really? Are you 12?
This is why I say there is no substantive western left. None of us told the capitalist fuck who dared admit to being a capitalist fuck to use their wealth to build something good and sustainable for themselves and the people around them instead of wasting it by doing startup cuckery because this simply isn't a "reality" in our westoid lives. Moreover here you are spreading knowledge that really does nothing but further individualist thinking and free-market neoliberal dominance despite knowing better. You don't need to convert anyone here to being a liberal because there is no one that needs such a conversion, fucking hilariously awful situation.
There is no “luck” in the real world.
:tito-laugh: :tito-laugh: :tito-laugh: :tito-laugh: :tito-laugh: :tito-laugh: :tito-laugh:
Not another word beyond that lmfao i bet youre some rich angloid startup owner or upper class fuckwit, the most lost out of all lost redditors
None of us told the capitalist fuck who dared admit to being a capitalist fuck to use their wealth to build something good and sustainable
"Having enough money saved up to live off for a couple years" does not make someone a capitalist. Heck, I've got enough savings to live off for at least 2 years and my bank account is well below the median worker's annual earnings in the US; my income was never even close to that level.
I am not arguing in any capacity in favor of the hot take that "successful CEOs have rare and powerful skills"; I'm just saying maybe cut OP some slack for working on an open source project that OP thinks will make people's jobs easier, instead of whatever you deem to be The Most Valid Leftist Project.
Although if you have more ideas on what "building something good and sustainable" is, I'd be really interested in comparing notes; I've been thinking about this for a long while.
Thanks for the links. We try to do the lean product playbook with some modifications. My cofounder is competent, he just values long term strategy over short term validation of what we already have. I want more of a spray and pray and try to evolve slowly kind of approach and hes more of an eggs-in-one-basket and satisfy that demographic approach. I'll read these docs though, thanks.
Two years is a long time to sink into something at high pace, with no return. Very curious as to what the actual project is that holds such promise. Step back and look at the big picture and assess whether this is still actually worthwhile - two years of work on an idea doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
If it is, depends on money circumstances, a break or at least a temporary change of your work direction is probably the best bet. Or at least cut down on the hours by 70%+ for a couple months or something. In your position, if money is a worry, I'd be tempted to take up some contract work for a couple months to think about something else.
Take care of yourself most of all :meow-hug: Even in a purely money-making sense, it sounds like you are very much part of the product, so you need to be in top shape too.
You're 100% right, 2 years is way too long. If I were to do this again, I would have done more to cut scope and made better choices about incremental releasing. 6 months should really be the max for the MVP. Thanks for the kind words and advice, it is helpful.
hexbear devposting like :fedposting:
But for real sounds like you need some time to yourself. Dont discount the project entirely per se, but definitely put some time and distance between the two for a couple months maybe? Is your savings still enough to keep you afloat without the added pressure of doing business things?
Yeah, I'm lucky enough to be able to take more time. But the money pressure is real and I'm really trying to figure out when to bail. I feel an astounding amount of guilt for not being able to program faster, which probably isn't rational. But yeah, sounds like I need to just put it down for a bit.
you can always come back, you cant always leave. Just look out for you as best you can in the meantime <3
It sounds like this is causing stress for both you and your cofounder. The underling questions of users and funding will still be there a month from now, weather or not you keep working at it, so perhaps you can coordinate a break together? If you both take time away from the project, there's no resentment over one person feeling like they have to 'shoulder' the full workload and you can both come back to it with fresh eyes at the same time.
Yeah ultimately you are right, nothing bad would happen if I just took a month off. Retrospectively, it seems like thats probably has always been the case. The pressure feels more real than it actually is.
You had the audacity to change your class? Just like that? Like flipping on a light switch? Now your labor belongs to yourself. You are self-exploiting. Congratulations. Welcome to the petit bourgeoisie. I did that too some years ago, and let me tell you it hasn't been easy. We are surviving though, and it really is true that unalienated labor hits different. My business is in an entirely different field from yours, so I can't offer much useful advice for your situation. We manufacture physical widgets in meatspace and deliver them bodily to clients. I will say that easily the most important thing is your relationships with your business partners. You really gotta care about each other deeply on the human level. If you get to a place where you don't like the idea of working hard for each other for many years, then you have a real problem. Also it's important to make time for big picture discussions. That can be really hard to do during busy seasons. Also it really helps to be rich going into a business venture, but being poor keeps you out of a certain class of dangers that monied startups often succumb to: things like overextension and over-leveraging. Nobody wants to lend money to poor people, so there's no danger of getting in over your head with debt lol. I wish you the best of luck, and I sincerely hope that you and your partners (business and otherwise) find ways of living interesting lives with security and dignity.
I grew up poor and I don't have the demeanor to interact with investors and I know that. I say words like 'fuck' when I don't know something and I don't like to spin the word salad that they like to hear. My cofounder is much better at this than me and I know its important to have a good relationship or it really won't work out. I honestly doubt that I'll ever get anything more than if I worked for a top 5 tech company for the same amount of time but I hope I can make it a living. Thanks.
Yeah if it's money you're after then go work for a big tech company. If you want that sweet unalienated labor then be prepared to face a brutal economic system designed to prevent you from having it. The juice is often not worth the squeeze as they say. You only have so many years before you're dead. Starting a business is literally gambling with your life.
My startup is killing me. What should I do.
You should go back to r/neoliberal. :joker-troll:
Might be meltano? Lol
Anyways if I have any advice it's to prioritize your relationship over this project. Open source is limited in its capacity to improve leftist works by default, it can easily be used by capitalists for their own gain, and you and your partner being cool and happy and ready to help with the socialist/ancom project is objectively much more valuable, and has the advantage of making you happier.
Solidarity, comrade.
I think it's probably time to take a break. You've hit burnout and it will not get any better until you stop doing what is causing you to burn out. There are studies that say it'll take 3 to 6 months to recover, so I would recommend taking a long break, at the very least, or perhaps just looking for a job somewhere else.
Nah, companies use technology all the time to make jobs for their workers easier because that way, they're more efficient and get more work done while still getting paid the exact same amount of money
Automating jobs away is a big concern in capitalist countries
Real adoption and genuine popularity are very very rare, especially nowadays. Your success is directly proportional to who you know with money to spend. I would say go find someone who has experience pandering to rich uncles and tech fuckwads for funding. If you want to make money in tech, you have to market your solution and convince people (e.g. morons with too much money) to invest in you because you have "the next big thing".
Being a Petit Bourgeois is unfortunately mostly about sucking up to bigger and more undesirable Petit Bourgeois so you can get a chance to get money from the actual Bourgeois. If you want to bust into this world, you might have to take a step back from making a genuinely worthy tool and start engaging with those ideas of marketing, personas, user stories, etc. If that isn't your vision (which I can't blame you for) then keep trudging on but at least know you didn't sell out.
