You must log in or register to comment.
their mistakes are worth criticizing and learning from
When people say this it reminds me of the revisionist book "Another View Of Stalin" by Ludo Martens which defends Stalin but ultimately makes the same (false) statements as the Kruschevites .
I'm curious as to what mistakes you think Stalin and Mao made?
The Soviet archives report about 730,000 executions during the Great Purge. To what degree that was appropriate given the conditions faced by the USSR is up to you.
The 1932 famine was not deliberate but there was significant administrative mismanagement that contributed to the death toll. It is reasonable to level the accusation that the Soviet administration had both the ability and the duty to intervene in the famine earlier and failed to do so. The reasons for this are very complex, but the fact remains.
Mass deportations of ethnic groups after the war is a pretty big Soviet L. The famine conditions of 1946 combined with almost non-existent preparations for the arriving populations caused a lot of unnecessary deaths. Also, collective punishment always causes more problems than it solves.
My understanding, which is admittedly limited, was the Sino-Soviet split was largely due to the actions of Kruschev's administration after Stalin's death.
Deportations due to suspected collaboration with Nazis
Almost entirely fictional. This is basically the "Uyghur genocide" of the 1940s.
As the nazi army ate more into Soviet territory. The Soviet Union then pulled people into the territory to prevent them being exterminated. The classic example is the Crimean Tatars with wikipedia claiming it was a "cultural genocide" (lmao sound familiar?)
Soviet relationship with China
Sino-soviet split happened because of the Kruschevites?
Treatment of religion
I um and ar about this but at the end of the day a lot Christians were White Guardists and only in 1940s when Stalin allowed Orthodox church back had they really taken on a Soviet orientation that wasnt traitorous
Lysenkoism
Lysnko was proven correct
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089051
Lysnko was proven correct
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089051
That's ridiculous, just because epigenetics are real doesn't mean his theory was sound at all. He made much bolder claims than what empirical evidence of epigenetics shows us.
Epigenetics is not what Lysenko theorized. The results and method of action are completely different. Lysenkoism's superficial resemblance to epigenetic phenomena is an accident of history, not evidence of suppressed genius.
yeah it's like saying anaximander "was right about evolution" because he said humans are descended from mermaids.
I suspect this is a stretch but don’t have a deep enough knowledge of Lysenko’s claims nor epigenetics to really know.
I actually read into it further last night and was mistaken. I had heard of Lysenkos resurgence and assumed he was right but it turns out he was just partly right and mostly wrong so ignore that.
I’m curious as to what mistakes you think Stalin and Mao made?
Stalin did a People's Ethnic Cleansing during WW2, most notably the Crimean Tatars, the reason being preventing collaboration with the nazis. Even though the fears of collaboration with nazis weren't unfounded deporting entire ethnicities from their homelands to some fucking backwoods without proper infrastructure is a :yikes: from me.
Stalin did a
Stalin didn't do anything. The soviet Union under Stalin was ran under collective leadership. Something even the CIA agrees with
Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Stalin was merely the captain of a team.
People’s Ethnic Cleansing during WW2
The Nazis occupied most of what we now call Ukraine and was only a few hundred miles from Crimea in 1944. A Slither of Soviet resistance separated Nazi occupied Ukraine from Crimea in 1944
https://omniatlas.com/maps/europe/19440129/
So did the Soviets move the Tatars because they wanted to "do a peoples ethnic cleansing" or did the Soviets move them to prevent what happened to all Soviet peoples under the flag of the 3rd reich?
deporting entire ethnicities from their homelands to some fucking backwoods without proper infrastructure
Yes. Much better to have the Nazis ride over the skulls off the Soviet supporters among the Crimean Tatars, the Nazis to empower the collaborators and use all the socialists and communists for slave labour like the OUN/UPA in the rest of Nazi-occupied Ukraine . Who signed up for Einzatsgruppen, and SS squads and wholesale slaughtered their own people
Stalin didn’t do anything. The soviet Union under Stalin was ran under collective leadership. Something even the CIA agrees with
The question was "what mistakes did Stalin make", I don't want to argue semantics here, you know what I meant.
So did the Soviets move the Tatars because they wanted to “do a peoples ethnic cleansing” or did the Soviets move them to prevent what happened to all Soviet peoples under the flag of the 3rd reich?
Uh huh, so why didn't they bring them back after the war? And also why didn't they do the same for all civilians, the nazis had plans to eradicate or enslave pretty much every ethnicity east of Berlin.
Uh huh, so why didn’t they bring them back after the war?
After ww2, World War 3 was expected to break out at any moment. Soviet and Americans were shooting each others planes down in the Korean war (1950)
A lot of Americans and British were hoping to turn the Hungarian Colour Revolution of 1956 into a world war documented here
Stalin died in 1953.
Those are some pretty wild mental gymnastics.
If WW3 were to break out what would it matter where the Tatars were at the time? WW3 clearly wouldn't have been fought against nazis.
Also they could have moved them back after Stalin's death, or did Khruschev's revisionism infect literally the entire Soviet Union instantly after gaining power? What was that about collective leadership again?
If WW3 were to break out what would it matter where the Tatars were at the time? WW3 clearly wouldn’t have been fought against nazis.
No it would've been fought by the Anglo-American empire that rehabiliated Nazis and put them as heads of NATO, EU and even put Reinhard Gehlen in charge of the Gehlen Organisation who was a former werhmacht Major General and head of Nazi Intelligence.
World War 3 would've been fought by the Anglo-American empire using Nazi's and Nazi collaborators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehlen_Organization
The CIA and MI6 were parachuting Banderites (OUN/UPA holocaust collaborators) into Ukraine as late as 1954
Between 1949 and 1954, a total of seventy-five ZCh OUN and ZP UHVR agents were parachuted into Ukraine. With Czech wartime pilots at the controls, the planes evaded Soviet radar screens by flying at 200 feet (61 meters) across the Soviet border and climbing at the last moment to 500 feet (152 meters), the minimum height for a safe parachute drop. In May 1952, one group was sent by submarine. In 1953 two groups used hot-air balloons that lifted from British and West German ships close to the Polish coast. Other groups tried to reach Ukraine on foot. Ukrainian MI6 and CIA agents did not realize that very few of their missions could meet with success, because of infiltration by Soviet intelligence.
Stepan Bandera The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist
Training them
The American and British intelligence services were already taking an interest in Nazis and Nazi collaborators, before the end of the war. They were also interested in people and organizations, such as the German Military Intelligence on the Eastern Front (Fremde Heere Ost, FHO), and the various Eastern European far-right movements, including the OUN, who could provide them with information about the Soviet Union or who possessed other valuable knowledge. With the help of the CIA, Reinhard Gehlen, former head of the FHO, established the Federal Intelligence Service (Bundesnachrichtendienst, BND), the intelligence service of West Germany. American intelligence protected Gehlen and his advisers.[1578]
And
Bandera had met with officials of the British Secret Intelligence Service (known as MI6), in the British zone at the end of the war. MI6 regarded Bandera as potentially useful for Cold War purposes, and therefore decided to help him.[1583] The American Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) in Munich also protected Bandera from Soviet intelligence, although it was more interested in cooperation with the UHVR, which began to compete with the ZCh OUN after the war. The CIC concluded that Bandera’s extradition would “imply to the Ukrainians that we as an organization are unable to protect them, i.e., we have no authority.
..
Also they could have moved them back after Stalin’s death
You asked about Stalin and I'm telling you the justification for not moving them back until 1953 (Stalin's death) and 1956 (when Ww2 was still expected to break out)
did Khruschev’s revisionism infect literally the entire Soviet Union instantly after gaining power?
It should tell you something that nothing was done until Gorbachevs pererstroika. That nothing formal was done until 1989. Ie. when they pulled down the red flag and let the country explode into nationalist-ethnic violence throughout the entire eastern bloc. Where Soviet brothers shoot at each other decades later in Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan/Ukraine etc
You’re really fucking reaching here, is any of this reasoning actually documented anywhere in the Soviet archives or official party correspondence or are you just pulling theories out your ass?
Why would the Soviets do it? If we take your bourgeois view of history to it's logical conclusion then there was no fear of Crimea Tatar collaboration despite them setting up their own Waffen SS groups with the Nazis
https://www.axishistory.com/list-all-categories/121-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-regiments/1378-tataren-gebirgsjaeger-regiment-der-ss
Ah, right, so it was collective leadership under Stalin and then it was an overnight sudden switch to revisionist incompetence.
You mistake what I'm saying. In my view it was correct to not allow them back until at least 1956. Cuban missile crisis was 1962 so can't really believe they should've gone back then either.
If the only Soviet Leader that thought it was a good idea to let them back was Gorby in 1989 I'd probably argue it wasn't a good idea then either.
You’re just doing blind apologetics under the guise of being super very informed by randomly quoting marginally related stuff.
you might want to look at a map of Ukraine to understand what i'm saying. The Anglo-American empire was parachuting Ukrainian nazis into Ukraine as late 1954. Crimea was right next to Ukraine (and did become part of Ukraine under Krushchev). You think Western intelligence wouldn't see out the same people who formed SS groups amongst the Crimean Tatars?
I'm just saying I assume the Soviet leadership (both Stalin and post Stalin) and Soviet intelligence knew more than you or I do
Maybe consider that you’re too far gone if you support shit like ethnic cleansing a
Categorically reject they were ethnically cleansed. They were moved like a lot of people during world war 2 in Soviet Union and they were given better lands. The question was weather they should've been moved back at any point between 1956-1989 and were it not for the threat of imperialism they would've been
Why would the Soviets do it?
Because, like you said, the Soviets weren't a hive mind led by a communist Borg queen. Russian nationalism was a real political force in the Soviet Union which, while its influence is vastly overstated in western historiography, was never properly stamped out by either Lenin or Stalin.
This led to some fucked up shit like the forced deportation of the Tatars, or at least was responsible for them not being allowed to come back.
Pretending like it was ackcskcshly a very advanced 9D historical materialist calculation done by the Party is just ridiculous, sorry.
Also you still never really responded to being dunked on for lysenkoism.
This led to some fucked up shit like the forced deportation of the Tatars, or at least was responsible for them not being allowed to come back.
Here's Grover Furrs view and tbh I stick by it
-Collaboration among Tatars was massive
-By 1944 20,000 had joined the Nazis to fight the Soviets out of a population of 218,000 (take out women, old people and under 18s and this is massive portion of the 18-65 population)
-Trying to isolate the guilty would've been to split the Tatar nation
-Deportation kept this nation intact keeping their culture/language/peoples alive
-If they'd actually just shot the collaborators this would probably have destroyed the tatar nation by removing most of the men
-Their population grew by mid 1950s
-when they were able to return most of them didn't want to as they were well established
Grover Furr, Krushchev Lied, p107,108 https://archive.org/details/pdfy-nmIGAXUrq0OJ87zK
This is the great "mistakes" of Stalin
This led to some fucked up shit like the forced deportation of the Tatars, or at least was responsible for them not being allowed to come back.
Uyghur genocide hours. 🥱
Also you still never really responded to being dunked on for lysenkoism.
Tbh I need to read more on Lysenko and you've motivated me to do so
Uyghur genocide hours. 🥱
Stop fucking deflecting, they could have moved them back at many points after the war. The claim that it was because of fear of new war is flimsy and backed by nothing other than your guesswork.
they could have moved them back at many points after the war.
And I'd have disagreed with allowing them back at any point tbh and the eventual Ukraine-Russia war is proof the West never would stop utilising the most reactionary elements to force war on Russia
The claim that it was because of fear of new war is flimsy
Yes because Ukraine was never considered the "soft belly" underneath Russia and the West never supported Nazis in Ukraine which may explode into world war 3 as we currently speak.
Either there was a threat of world war 3 or their wasn't and I provided you a book with numerous Anglo politicians/military thinking 1956 Hungary would turn into ww3 with the Cuban missile crisis 6 years later
in 1951 to the leadership of the OUN in Ukraine, he argued that the Western countries were preparing themselves for a war against the Soviet Union and needed two more years to produce enough weapons to begin one.[1711]
In 1958 Bandera still claimed that “The Third World War would shake up the whole structure of world powers even more than the last two wars.”[1713]
Stepan Bandera The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist, p300
backed by nothing other than your guesswork.
Yes. The Gehlen Organisation ran by a literal Nazi supported by the CIA wasn't tasked with gathering up all the far right (read Nazis) during the Cold War. Anglos weren't parachuting Nazis into Ukraine as late as 1954
Anglo intelligence definitely wouldn't have approached former nazi collaborators amongst the Tatar nation
Bullshit. Why didn't they deport all or most of Ukrainians then after the war?
Either there was a threat of world war 3 or their wasn’t and I provided you a book with numerous Anglo politicians/military thinking 1956 Hungary would turn into ww3 with the Cuban missile crisis 6 years later
Didn't say there wasn't, I'm saying it's wasn't a good rationale for keeping Tatars from their lands. I don't even think it was their rationale, it's something you made up to make it seem like it wasn't an actual atrocity.
Why is it so hard to admit that nationalism might have played a part in it. It's not like it would be this huge precedent in the history of communist parties that one would be infiltrated by nationalists to some extent.
Bullshit. Why didn’t they deport all or
I dispute even the word deportation tbh. It was an evacuation in my view.
This twist of language is typical of all contentious issues outside the Anglo-Euro sphere. Like when they call Tinanamen Square a massacre instead of a violent liberal colour revolution of ShitLibs murdering unarmed Chinese soldiers. Or when people call the "Molotov-Ribbentrop" pact an alliance.
most of Ukrainians then after the war?
The evacuation occured under conditions of a World War. Why would Soviets deport Ukrainians after the war when the Communists had hegemony amongst the Ukrainian Nation and the Banderites were literally called "German-Ukrainian Nationalists" in popular culture
I’m saying it’s wasn’t a good rationale for keeping Tatars from their lands.
I think it was.
it’s something you made up to make it seem like it wasn’t an actual atrocity.
An atrocity is definitely when you evacuate a population to even more fertile land and instead of shooting the nazi collaborators they just got deported and kept their lives and the Tatar nation allowed to grow because of that mercy.
If they'd deported or shot just the collaborators it would've destroyed the Tatar nation by removing most of the family aged men (18-40)
And when they're offered the lands back the majority don't even want to go.
This is a contentious issue, I get it but a joke to call it an atrocity
Why is it so hard to admit that nationalism might have played a part in it.
The Soviet decision allowed the Tatar nation to continue existing and growing. They've could've done what the Anglo nations do to their oppressed nations and funnelled them onto Reserves where they spend all day drinking alcohol or huffing gas, the suicide rate goes through the roof and the birth rate plummets in a deliberate attempt to exterminate those nations.
Or they could've shot the Nazi collaborators (completely justified) and wiped out the Tatar nation within a 1 or 2 generatiosn
The Soviet decision (under geopolitical and national security concerns) seems to be a sincere attempt to keep the Tatar nation intact.
First by being pretty generous enough not to shoot nazi collaborators and second not splitting up the Tatar nation again with a right of return say in 1965 which may have split the Tatars in half. (say half decide to go and half to stay out of a population of 218k)
Again, when they were offered full right of return the majority stayed where they were.
The Soviet decision (under geopolitical and national security concerns) seems to be a sincere attempt to keep the Tatar nation intact.
You think the Tatars saw it that way? Are there any documented testimonies from any of them?
First by being pretty generous enough not to shoot nazi collaborators and second not splitting up the Tatar nation again with a right of return say in 1965 which may have split the Tatars in half. (say half decide to go and half to stay out of a population of 218k)
Ah so now they did it for their own good because they're dum dums and would have split themselves into irrelevance otherwise. Fuck off, I'm done with this discussion.
Again, when they were offered full right of return the majority stayed where they were.
Yeah because 50 years passed genius, there was not much to come back to.
You think the Tatars saw it that way? Are there any documented testimonies from any of them?
I honestly don't really care about how they saw it. When such a significant amount actively fought the Soviets alongside nazis. A decision was made in the exigencies of 1944 and I'd probably vote for that decision in that time
Ah so now they did it for their own good because they’re dum dums and would have split themselves into irrelevance otherwise
I was only entertaining the possibility of allowing return post 1965. It's not even something I'd agree with
. Fuck off, I’m done with this discussion.
Sure if discussing hotbutton and squeamish issues affects you this much. But be sure every Socialist nation will have to make these kinds of controversial decisions during the period of Imperialism and capitalist encirclement.
You said this was a "mistake" of Stalin. I just don't agree
Yeah because 50 years passed genius, there was not much to come back to.
Chagos Islanders were deported in the 1960s and 70s by the British and Americans and they still regularly demand their land back.
That nation was completely obliterated. Most having killed themselves or "died of sadness" (ie. just became despondent after being dumped in other countries) and still protesting and trying to get their land back.
If 50 years later the Tatars as a majority dont want to move back this is only a testament to the delicate handling of the National question of the Tatar nation by Soviet leadership (both Stalin and post-stalin)
The most I remember of this book is the numerous spelling mistakes
Yeah you can go ahead and associate me with that nonsense they helped get a lot of people fed
they helped get a lot of people fed
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh didn't the great leap forward unintentionally cause a massive famine in china?
There were dozens of famines in the century before Mao, some more severe. There have been none since.
Meanwhile India still has people dying of malnutrition-related diseases while they export food for the profits of the owners.
uhhhhhh don't you know that comparing two countries with similar past and present histories, except for ideology is actually WHATABOUTISM.
:last-sight: hah, another tankie owned
Pretty easy, we bully OP.
You don't need to dig into their post history or write a novel about how they're not the one true leftist to tell them to post hog.
Idk mods haven't removed any comments in here :shrug-outta-hecks:
god they haven't gone soft on those revisionist fools have they? they ban libs but not trots, weird.
Com, you are currently sitting down to an ideology that has has a mountain of manure poured over it by bourgeois historians, professors and lib/con think tanks pouring lies atop the 2 most courageous heros of the 20th Century.
Eventually you will ask yourself why you will never be able to separate the word "Communism" from Stalin and Mao.
After you have picked through the crap, spent thousands of hours reading history (particularly how bourgeois society falsified Soviet and Chinese history), you will read Marx and Engels and Lenin then eventually Stalin and Mao
At that point you will discover how the word "Communism" is inseparable from Stalin and Mao (as it is from Marx/Engels and Lenin) and this process is a lesson in linguistic dialectical historical materialism itself. Try and join a Communist Party that doesn't uphold Stalin and Mao for eg.
:gigachad-hd: Why yes, I am a Moist-Stalinist, how could you tell?
Stalin would not allow a Imperialist cop on the Podium , must be somebody else :very-smart:
he was unexpextendly disapproving of my communist path... :lt-dbyf-dubois:
