I've expressed this opinion a few times in comments, but I feel that it's important enough for its own post. I recognize that there were plenty of issues with the old Chapo sub -- each of us could come up with a different set of problems, and we'd probably all disagree on quite a few of them; however, I think that for the sake of the long-term survival of this community it's important to keep this place as much like the old sub as possible.
r/chapotraphouse was a unique space online, and despite the many criticisms we could levy against it, we would probably all agree that it was a unique and important site for organizing, socializing, and commiserating with like-minded individuals, otherwise we wouldn't be here. One way in which it stood out was that it was uniquely non-sectarian in its moderating and administration, and even liberals wouldn't be banned for expressing unpopular opinions. I was pretty much a "radlib" when I joined (although I absolutely hate that word), and it was through arguing with so-called "tankies" on r/chapo, and reading others' arguments and explanations, that I slowly but surely became a Marxist. It was also one of the few major leftist subreddits that didn't alienate new users by issuing blanket bans over the use of words like "stupid" and "crazy," and generally let people express themselves how they wished as long as they weren't being chuds or calling for violence. Dogshit opinions and cringey edgelordism were generally community-moderated through downvotes and scathing comments, with truly toxic users being banned when they revealed themselves as such.
Some changes from the sub's old formula are inevitable. As was made clear from the very beginning, ChapoChat is intended not as an alternative to r/chapotraphouse, but rather as an alternative to Reddit. I think the addition of sub-communities within our broader community is a change with a lot of great potential, and I'm excited to see how these communities grow and change as the ChapoChat userbase expands. Other inevitable changes from the old sub come from being an independent site detached from a big company like Reddit. While we don't have to worry about being banned by trigger-happy admins anxious to purge us from their site, we do have to worry about getting overwhelmed by raiders or being pulled down by the site host over reports from concern-trolling reactionaries.
For this last reason, I fully understand and support the relative strictness with which the admins and mods have been enforcing the rules in these sensitive first few days, and I don't want this post to be misunderstood as a rant against the mods or against the way this community is currently being run. In this sensitive time, being too careful is always better than not being careful enough. I've looked through the modlogs and seen erroneously-banned users reinstated, and the mods have followed up with me personally after my own comments were pulled down, to make sure I understood why the rules are being enforced the way they are. This has all been very encouraging.
Here's the main point that I want to stress: As this community grows and evolves, it will have struggle sessions and drama. New rules and policies will be put in place in response to these events, and big decisions will have to be made about the future direction of this site as its userbase expands. Again, this post has nothing to do with the current state of the site and has everything to do with its future. For the sake of cohesion and minimizing infighting/factionalism, I feel that when these big decisions are made, they should be made in the way that best preserves the spirit of the subreddit. Despite its many flaws, we all saw value in the unique culture of the Chapo sub, otherwise this community would not have been created.
I will leave this with a screenshot I recently took from Reddit that I feel sums up the things I valued about the old Chapo sub. For context, a different user made a comment saying that this site is "probably filled with tankies," to which I responded saying that no one will get banned here for their leftist tendency. This was a third user's response. Like many of you I'm encouraged by the great start we've had, and excited to see what will become of this community.
It's hard to tell people with bad ideas that need to be educated from bad faith arguments sometimes. There was a pattern for a while on /r/CTH where people would always give the first round of an exchange the benefit of the doubt, then if the second round still looked like a bad faith argument, people started in with the post hog / ligma / pig poop balls / pee pee poo poo stuff. I think that's a good pattern to hold to, for being accepting of newbies and while still limiting how much time and energy a troll can extract from the community.
Makes sense to me. Don't assume people are shitheads, but do allow them to convince you that they are.
I am lowkey glad the other server is nuked bc i had a cringe post about how even though cops are bad they are comrades because they are exploited under capitalism too. im very much glad I was curbstomped for it, now Im ACAB af and it only took like 3 years
I'm ain't reading all that.
Happy for you tho.
Or sorry that happened.
👏 I agree with so much of what you've said, and I disagree a little, but... well, that's the magic of chapo right there, isn't it? :) Mostly, I applaud your effortposting! 👏
Chapo's tendency acceptance is, to me, the very core of the community. It's a stance of philosophical uncertainty and oppeness that I find not only to be honest, but to be really important. I think it should be the norm in most/all leftist communities. To me, personally, it's weird that it is not the norm.
But alas, that's why I'm here! And other commenters, and even some other posts, have celebrated the same thing.
So I think we need to do everything we can to maintain that. And also to continue to be welcoming/inclusive of libs. Libs are like the secret ingredient part of the recipe here ;)
But! I do wish people would stop using 'crazy' etc. haha. It's a personal issue, but phrases like that are sanist and ableist. I am willing to let it slide because I understand the current context of the left and broader society, but my vision of the leftist future doesn't include slurs based on capitalist values of 'normal' minds :)
A small bone to pick in a big, beautiful post. Again, :clapping hands:
I try to avoid using that word myself, I just don't think that people should be banned over it. It's really alienating that some communities treat it the same as racist and sexist slurs and consider people horrible bigots for using it.
Fuck the R-word though, the old Chapo sub's leniency on that word is one of my critiques of it. It usually got downvoted though, which is good.
My honest opinion? The left is still in the early stages of 'waking up' when it comes to mental illness. Not that I blame us; the science has been slow, and we're working our way out of hundreds or thousands of years of sanism.
Like, most of the world, even most of the right tbh, has realized how terrible the r-word is. It took a lot of work, but we're there.
'Crazy' isn't as intense of an insult as the r-word was, but it still... hurts, ngl. Like, I'm diagnosed with bipolar, and 'crazy' has been used forever to demean me and people like me, to deny the authenticity of our experience, and as an excuse to hand-waive our word. It is a tool of sanism.
It's used so casually, as a much less intense insult than the r-word was, for sure. So I get why it's still around.
Like ya, we both agree that 'crazy' shouldn't be used, and yet I still find myself using it from time to time. That's pretty much where I'm at: I'm not gonna successfully remove it from common vernacular by banning people that say it hahaha, we're not at that stage in mental illness awareness for that to be effecetive.
But I will continue to do what I can to slowly push it out of what's considered normally ok. It's in my plans, I'm just playing the long game hahahaha. Slowly but surely, we will continue to wean reactionary thought from the culture :kropotkin-big:
I'm honestly just really happy to have a space to talk about this . :af-heart:
The left is still in the early stages of ‘waking up’ when it comes to mental illness.
So is the whole WORLD.
Yep. Absolutely. Which is why I take it easy with this stuff. I only call out the left with this cuz it's our job to lead everyone to the better future . :red-fist:
Yep! I actually have a vague suspicion that the hippies, of all people, went through this struggle session like 60 years ago, and that's why all their swearwords are so wholesome hahaha. Oooh, that really ticks me off hahaha
When all is said in done, words that mean 'you're bad' by way of likening someone to a mentally unhealth/unstable person, or someone unintelligent, those words will always be a lil bit reactionary. I think they'll fade with time, as we get better at accepting new understandings of what it means to be a person: namely, that it ok to be unintelligent, or to have a mental illness :)
I'm in no huge rush, I think it's just a process that does take time. The hardest part is coming up with alternative words tbh. But ya, I managed to get psycho out :) my next challenge is to stop using sociopath in a derogatory fashion. Not everyone with Antisocial Personality Disorder is evil :)
Of course, in communities that are explicitly safe spaces for people with mental illnesses, no tolerance for insults based on mental illness. And slowly we will expand our reach until all spaces are safe places for people with mental illnesses :smiling face with horns: muhauhaah hehehe
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is: good on you, comrade hahaha :) :sankara-salute:
I do wish people would stop using ‘crazy’ etc. haha. It’s a personal issue, but phrases like that are sanist and ableist.
Also note the importance of describing why a word most people use unthinkingly is actually not all that great. If you just rip people for it or even ban them, they're not going to get on board with you.
Ya, that's a really important point. It harkens to the idea of 'calling in' vs. 'calling someone out'. Sure, we True Leftists might have the privilege of access to revolutionary ideas that others don't. It's not enough to say 'that's bad', we actually have to educate people. Which means we have to learn about psychology, and how to educate people.
I like being personal about it. Explaining how the word 'crazy' means basically nothing to most people, but other people feel extremely othered by it. Just nice and simple :)
There is another dimension to this: which is that we're not only here to educate libs. We're also here to have a safe space, where comrades don't feel othered. Some things just aren't allowed, and that changes even within our community as we push the overton windows ever leftward :)
Just out of curiosity what would be good words to use instead? Like to signify something being way off base, far out, impossible to comprehend the reasoning behind etc (I guess one of the examples I just said would work).
I guess the problem with trying to find another word to use is that all the synonyms of "crazy" (mad, insane, deranged, bonkers etc.) also happen to be sanist. So I think it's better to go for words which express the effect that "crazy" situations or notions have on us e.g. "baffling" and "bewildering". "Ridiculous" and some of its synonyms can also work.
Ya, this is it :)
I like all your suggestions, as well as phrases like 'absurd', 'wild', 'too much', and even phrases like @proonjooce mentioned like 'way off base', and, if you're brave enough haha, 'far out' :P
Ya, I love absurd. It really rolls off the tongue, and it's already in my natural vocab. Plus it perfectly describes the emotional experience of dealing with something overwhelmingly flabbergasting.
In the same vein, I also really like 'surreal'. I like this thread, it's forcing me to be more creative instead of just the easy 'nop, that word bad' haha :af-heart:
Amen to non-sectarian discussion, I'm ancom and I hate "anarkiddie v tankie" slap fights.
I'd rather work with other leftists regardless of flavor or persuasion to overcome capitalism.
I tend to enjoy these slapfights when they are all in good fun, but there is a lot of historical and ideological baggage we have to deal with and overcome. To be realistic, we aren't there yet. Someone always takes it seriously - likely because they have legitimate grievances from past exchanges and experiences which are awoken and dragged back to the surface. So as much fun as it is to shit on each other in jest, we need to make sure that trust is there first.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUTeDlfcAqk
personally, i love the struggle sessions, as long as they don’t get too one-sided. i think my ideology has significantly changed because of them. as long as everyone is arguing in good faith, they can be really productive
It was only when I looked at other leftist places to commune that I really understood, learned, and truly appreciated the value of this community for not being sectar-however it's spelled. I love you all. :af-heart:
Here's my contribution to keeping the spirit of the sub alive:
cumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcumcum
Agree 100%, upvotes should decide what's good and what isn't not the mod team (unless obvious fash trolling). I'm sure we will be ok, if we (leftists) want to run society one day we should be able to handle a message board.
If you want me to leave reddit you’ll have to give me an alternative to /r/counting
yeah man, i agree. Like, for sure uh huh. Sometimes I think, maybe, but, like, yeah definitely. Also, ipso facto, this is determined to be something that I’ve done very much like for the brain. It doesn’t even have to be consistent just something real and unique, for example, dude, man, and all of the things that consist of fundamental things.
edit: lol sorry you’re right, I think moderation needs to be more hands off.
You're a real fuckwit, you know that right? But this was art lmao hahahaha :clapping hands:
i'm skeptical about the need for the other communities still. while I think eventually making a server separate to chapo for everything could be a great idea, what need right now Is it to have electoralism, politics, and news separate from the main page? it seems to just make the main page redundant and ruins the catchallness that chapo had where you could talk about whatever you wanted
Especially "politics" like wtf is the entire rest of this site for
I agree we need a unified large community not splits and divisions but we are leftists after all so I imagine we will all end up the way the universe will end with the big rip each of us floating out on our own like a lone atom drifting through the void. No matter, no light, no energy.
ya idgi tbh posting it all in one place worked on cth why would it not work here with a much smaller userbase? the other communities are ghost towns tbh
Couldn't agree more. Let's recreate what we had first, get everyone back, before we start evolving.
