I called someone out on the groupchat for saying that if communist orgs can hand out leaflets with Lenin on them he should be able to do nazi salutes in public. He claimed Lenin killed millions and said “ever heard of the holodomor genocide”. I talked about how the famines weren’t a genocide (and how he'd actually been dead for almost a decade before they happened) and later said radlib came in, claimed Lenin oppressed all the people of the USSR (but admitted he helped Ukraine), posted this video and left
he should be able to do nazi salutes in public.
“Dude why do you keep wanting to do nazi salutes lol fucking weirdo”
"lol that's US propaganda. Did he give Iraq WMDs to?"
Then link him the book "women had better sex under socialism " and just tell him it is a skill issue
How to alienate yourself and get told to touch grass by your friends - an example
Seriously, that shit only works in public semi-anonymous internet forums. Talking like an internet troll to people you know on your group chat is called being too online.
Only people who are too damn online themselves will attempt to have this conversation with you
It is, but in the same unfocused way if all us politics. They are more likely to think of M. Bison than Stalin if you ask them.
My point is polemics only work to convince an audience, not the person you're debating. That's why they are so effective in public forums like the internet. Engaging in polemics against someone you know personally makes them not like you or your opinions. And any of your friends or acquiantences observing will feel the a same way.
Not polemics, literally just a zinger. They are only ever going to remember two or three things about it. Replace one of the facts from middle school with you laughing at them and you have improved their heuristics by 30%
I'm struggling to understand how you could think that's how minds work and the only conclusions is you genuinely believe that was an actual zinger.
They work mostly by heuristic and narrative. In this way we are addressing the extant mental prototype and addressing people in the manner relevant to their ideas on the subject.
"If I bring up holodomor to a tankie, they'll change the subject with their own sexual pathology."
That's what's going to be in their head.
the sex under socialism thing is not even remotely relavent to discussion of whether or not there was ethnic persecution under the USSR
i dont know why you think arguing about the holodomor is going to be any more productive than just linking them a nonsequitir.
Yes, but that doesn't matter. Bullying your fellow nerd into the correct positions is correct. They don't belive the US propaganda because they did the math and it checks out. They belive it because it was the emotionally easiest thing to do.
Bullying your fellow nerd into the correct positions is correct.
When has that ever worked?
Like, a third of us here. Failing that we don't wast to much energy on people that don't deserve it.
genuinely seems like you are not just saying bullying works but that it is the only thing capable of working. The evidence for which is "well if they weren't persuaded by bullying clearly they can't be persuaded"
Both of which are baseless. I think you just prefer bullying
I an saying you have to meet people where they are at. Reasoned debate works on only a small part of people. For the most part you simply cannot do enough work on Twitter or at a coffee shop to change them. So, your options all revolve around wasting your time or planting seeds. The post hog drunk is the equilibrium point of all those forces. If you find something else to work let me know. I am down
Yeah I find planting seeds works. I also find that you can plant seeds better if you ask them questions about their position to try and draw out why they believe what they believe.
Context matters here but if you're talking to a lib reasoned debate has an actual chance to get through but just telling them off gets them to shut down. They have after all been inocculated by media mocking angry leftists for decades. I actually have found great success with the more reasoned approach with the libs in my life.
I think dunking on people just gets them defensive and they double down on their positions
When has that ever worked?
I wouldn't be a communist if my friend hadn't beaten me over the head with communist propaganda and told me i was a brainwashed nerd
That's the point. These dipshits don't deserve a serious answer.
Also, that was mostly a 100 years ago and has no relevance to important stuff today. We don't need to defend the honor of the ussr in specific cases. Just in general that it was no worse but often better than the us.
The sex thing is from east Germany for one. Also of all the arguments to use it just seems like the kind of thing a 12 year old would bring up
We were talking about someone's message from a friend in a groupchat. Some random on twitter yeah sure whatever nothing you say will matter
but the people in your actual life there are other methods that actually work
Fair critique. It does vary more depending on the person. I would simply expect that on average people would be unreceptive unless you got a specific vibe
Well bullying works only if there is consistent social pressure from society at large that backs you up.
Something like the holodomor there is no point trying it. Because our positions are niche we have to work to spread them by planting seeds
oppressing all of the people of the USSR by pushing strongly for national sovereignty of the empire's subjugated nations
Wait, you want people to understand how history actually went down?
Preposterous
You should just laugh at him and spam the only a spoonful meme
I called the first guy a fucking idiot and a fascist apologist, but I think I’ll only make headway with the slava ukraini lib by pretending to respect him in the first place
I've had some success with engaging with libs if they are open to good faith conversation.
No, probably not. I would personally not watch the Stalin spoon video and would respond with some actual facts on the 1933 famine. But "Holodomor" is a touchy subjects for libs with Eastern European ancestry, especially now that Ukraine at large is a spicy subject.
I feel like "double holocaust" is too in the weeds for most libs to already have a grasp of. If they're "HUNDRED MILLION DEAD" types then pointing out the Black Book of Communism is bullshit has been effective. Also pointing out that the Holodomor narrative was started by literal occupying Nazis is a good start.
The thing is that libs have so much bullshit to fall back on that if you counter any point they make, they will switch immediately to another attack and ignore whatever bullshit they were spewing a minute ago. Point out the myths of holodomor, they will switch immediately to "but Gulags" or something else.
I thought it was spread by hearst press (still fascist assholes aligned with the nazi party) before the occupation?
It's like a duel where you gotta be ready to parry every single fuckin blow, but on the plus side we already know their rhetorical manual of arms because liberalism is what what we ourselves were first trained in
Yeah goin onto leftist forums, posting my lib takes and getting them shot down was excellent practice for real life. One of my childhood friends is a turbo lib, literally works in politics. But when we talked about China I felt like Neo. All I saw was ones and zeros. Every argument he said had been said a thousand times before.
If I ever see my Ukrainian relatives I’m going to say isn’t most of the infrastructure in Ukraine built under Soviet rule and see how well that does.
This is why I'm glad my friend's group is split into two circles
The Communists and Communist Adjacent and the completely apolitical types
So basically, the Chill and the Grill
The apolitical types and radlibs in my friend group know better than to question the Commy vanguard when we're going off.
by combining many small farms into one big farm It's easier to extract surplus grain or surplus sugar
🤔
Can someone explain to me the difference between a famine during the Great Depression affecting one of the most war torn regions of its time in a nation without industrial capacity, and planning to put over 20 million human beings into industrial gas chambers and starting a war that kills 60 million in order to achieve that dream of removing all Slavs and Jews from the world? It’s really really hard for me to tell the difference.
a famine during the Great Depression affecting one of the most war torn regions of its time in a nation without industrial capacity, and planning to put over 20 million human beings into industrial gas chambers and starting a war that kills 60 million in order to achieve that dream of removing all Slavs and Jews from the world?
There's a not-total-shit argument that boils down to Soviet policy in the Ukraine being unconscionably draconian, in the same way that the Brits starving out Bangladesh or the the Irish during the Potato Famine was functionally "genocide through neglect". But because Everyone I Don't Like Is Hitler, the mythology of the Holodomor expands to fill the degree to which you revile Communists, Slavs, and Foreigners Generally Speaking.
Also, because history ended in 1945, The Holodomor is the hallmark moment of Soviet Russian History. Not the subsequent 60 years of industrialization, technological advancement, material surplus, and cultural spread.
No real point in arguing with people like this because they don't hold their opinions on an intellectual level but an emotional one. They NEED Russia to be bad and Russia is the USSR so that has to be bad. For most normies politics is entirely libidinal. Putin hurt them by inflicting Trump on America, so nows our chance to hurt him back.
Damn that’s crazy that he took the big ladle to all the grain reserves of the Soviet Union. Anyways google “William Hearst Holodomor” if you want to learn how this is a made-up Nazi myth
https://averdade.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Livro-28-DOUGLAS-TOTTLE-–-FOME-FRAUDE-E-FASCISMO.pdf
For the radlib I would tactfully try to avoid the 1933 Ukraine famine without conceding your argument in the slightest. If they are of the opinion that Lenin "oppressed the whole USSR" then they are really misinformed. Tell them to look at the USSR before the revolution and after the fall of the USSR. The life expectancy, literacy, education rate, industrialization, etc. is massively better during the USSR than during the Tsardom and the RF. And of course you can mention how the combined west literally invaded the nascent USSR to help the Whites.
you can mention how the combined west literally invaded the nascent USSR to help the Whites.
On christmas no less, the fuckers!
This is why I'm glad that I'm not in any groupchats, along with having no friends to talk to about shit like this, or any real friends at all :cri:
Germany is like the only country where you’ll get punished if you’re a regular citizen and publicly display Nazi shit. Elsewhere, you’re more likely to get killed handing out the manifesto
