The constant harassment and abuse from speciesist reactionaries is what drove us off. But mentioning that part would ruin the narrative that vegans are the bad guys
Reminder: https://archive.ph/Xl1Kd
My favorite part is the unrelenting narrative building of vegans as problematic and dramatic, and if we try to counter that, you all pour into a comm where you're explicitly not allowed to post to put us in our place. God forbid we ever once speak up when y'all shit talk us
the problem is hexbear.net shows "all" by default, not "subscribed". carnists aren't subscribed and don't realize that this sub has rules
Yeah, then you tell them the rules and they dgaf bc they prefer to harass us
Well yeah but the easiest solution would be to prevent oblivious carnists from coming here in the first place. It gives them a chance to learn, which is good, but I have little appetite to teach them.
hexbear.net don't ostracize and harass a minority group for standing up for themselves, regardless of comm rules, challenge: impossible
I'm not big on that individual responsibility shit. Let's get an easy structural fix: make it show "subscribed" by default when you're logged in.
you let me know once you figure out how to purge nonvegans from hexbear. In the meantime this UI change is so obvious that I think it counts as a bug. Frustrating to get this amount of pushback from other vegans.
you let me know once you figure out how to purge nonvegans from hexbear.
well there are a bunch of them shitting up this thread as we speak. turn those comment removals into bans. it's not hard.
I can fight with carnists anywhere on the internet, I want /c/vegan to be a space for us.
Here we go again, time for the animal abusers to rise up against the injustice of being told not to abuse animals again :heated-gamer-moment:
You know, there's actually been studies done about the bigotry vegans face
vegans are viewed more negatively than atheists, immigrants, homosexuals, and asexuals
From a study linked in this article: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/11/2/18055532/vegans-vegetarian-research-uk
But you tell carnists they're being abusive harassers and they say we deserve everything that comes to us. Hey, bigots, you know veganism is actually a protected belief in a lot of places and where it isn't protected, it should be. It doesn't surprise me that carnists here give me the same victim blaming I get irl from right wing misogynists. Sorry not sorry for being uppity instead of erasing myself for the sake of your vibes.
Most vegans don't talk about this bc the bigotry and exclusion and hatred we receive is nothing compared to the way carnists and their sick system of animal agriculture treat nonhumans. But it does no one any favors to ignore how or community is repeatedly marginalized everywhere we go, in person and online. Vegans are isolated and alienated and many lose connection and support from their friends, family, and community when they choose to stand up for nonhumans. Sometimes online spaces are literally the only place where leftist vegans can find each other and talk.
The US state views us as literal terrorists, you know. So many animal rights activists from the previous generation were imprisoned and are still behind bars. But god forbid someone tell a carnist their treats are killing animals and the earth. Treats matter more than lives, and anyone who says otherwise is a huge asshole who should be ostracized
Sorry, but you can in no way equate the rude comments vegans get to the bullshit queer people have to put up with.
I've seen mates stabbed for their homosexuality, the worst I've ever seen happen to a vegan is the sort of dumb shit comments about diets you are no doubt familiar with.
Fuck off with these false equations.
Then you should know first hand that this bullshit is in no way comparable.
You have never walked in my shoes. I talk to vegans leftists and vegan activists everyday and the parallel between their experience and that of bi ppl like me is extremely striking. The lack of community support is extremely difficult. So many of the vegans I talk to everyday have vystopia, depression, and suicidal ideation.
https://scitechdaily.com/vegetarians-more-likely-to-be-depressed-than-meat-eaters-heres-the-science-behind-it/
https://faunalytics.org/veganism-stigma-and-you/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317768313_Discrimination_Against_Vegans
Vegans are also more likely to be poor.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201508/vegetarianism-and-money-surprising-results-new-study
Carnism is so entrenched as to be invisible to you, but it's not invisible to us. Everywhere we go, we see the corpses of tortured animals being eaten in front of us, billboards and TV ads with corpses on display. Schools and hospitals and prisons don't often accommodate vegans, in fact we're often force fed animal products by such institutions, ignorant doctors prescribe us meat for ailments totally unrelated, tricked into it by community members, and mocked relentlessly by wider society. Not to even mention the shit vegan parents go through. Ppl threaten to take their kids. People harass us about being vegan when we're silent and minding our own business, let alone the shit storm that always always comes when we actually do choose to speak up.
https://joannfarb.weebly.com/blog/not-an-apologetic-vegan
https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-80-animal-rights-as-media-and-pop-culture-punchline
Animal ag is one of the biggest and most powerful industries. It drove colonization in the Americas and the current burning down of the Amazon. To say that they don't have entrenched systemic power is fucking absurd. They have the power to create laws like ag gag and the Animal Entreprise Terrorism Act, they make it illegal to tell the truth about how destructive milk is in schools and offer alternatives like water. Rescuing a pig from certain torture and death could land you behind bars with multiple felonies, because our system treats sentient beings as chattel property instead of persons and criminalizes and marginalizes those who attempt to fight that system.
https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-139-of-meat-and-men-how-beef-became-synonymous-with-settler-colonial-domination
Also you should get tf out of this comm. I'm so fucking sick of people who rape and murder animals telling us we don't get to feel upset about it, then kicking us or of the community and saying we deserve it bc simply having a voice makes us assholes. Go be a loser fucking oppression gatekeeper somewhere else. I get it, ppl you hate don't get to describe their life experiences or say they're being hurt by you
https://twitter.com/colorspctrum/status/1667257795513667597?t=WSoVTUytTTnU9vTtFmV-qQ&s=19
If you don't think I have the standing to compare my own damn experiences as a bi ace and as a vegan, you're just speaking out of ignorance and bigotry. No amount of stats and facts will convince a fucking bigot
Firstly:
people who rape and murder animals
Thank you for with no knowledge of who I am, instantly assuming my stance on animal liberation so you can paint the least charitable view of me possible, really appreciate it.
You capped your little screed off a accusing me of being a bigot and unaware of stats, 172 vegans were the victims of hatecrimes in the UK between 2015 and 2020 in one year of that timeframe ~14500 queerphobic hate crimes were recorded. In that same time frame, multiple attempts were made to undo the gender recognition act, back benchers of the UK's leading party called for a return of section 28, all forms of the pride flag were added to the prevent scheme's list of "extremist symbols", and gender services in England and Scotland canceled gender affirming care to transmascs in their care without notifying them. In that same timeframe, some vegan groups were added to prevents watchlist.
Queer people are under siege by the hegemony and it's only getting worse but don't you dare ever say that we're having a worse time than your average vegan. No, because then you're a bigot.
I've lost friends, seen cops cheer on as fascists assault my comrades, I can't just go about my life without near daily harassment from shit heads and I live in a part of the UK that's relatively queer friendly. But what do I know about oppression some stranger on the internet has decided I'm a carnist?
Well, considering you came to my post with the sole mission of telling me to sit down and shut up bc the way vegans are marginalized is not exactly to the same degree and expression as queer marginalization, yeah, I think you fucking don't give a shit about animals or vegans.
I highly fucking doubt you read any of the articles or listened to any of the pods I linked given how quick you were to respond. You looked at one study, misinterpreted it, and ignored everything else bc you very fucking obviously don't care what I'm saying or what I'm actually arguing. You've decided in your head that what I'm actually saying is "vegans have it worse than queer ppl" and that's a very easy strawman to get mad at. I would get mad at that too if I heard someone say it. So it's a good thing no one here is arguing it.
Anyway, disengage. You're obviously not engaging with me in good faith, so I refuse to continue with you.
Lists stats from multiple studies, points out political strife against the queer community.
"You didn't listen to literally everything I demanded you to! Muh bad faith."
Yeah, I agree it's probably best to disengage.
Didn't engage with the substance of my argument at all. This bullshit is bad faith too.
I'm bisexual. I'm vegan. My veganism has had a more negative social and material impact on me than my bisexuality.
Not really a counterpoint since they're more likely targeted for their queerness not their veganism.
"More likely" is already you hedgin' you argument. Get hedged.
Also, a lot of black and women vegans who get combined harassment due to it.
People who are on an intersection of oppressive patriarchal heirarchies being abused.
Must be because they're vegan. :galaxy-brain:
There's an oft bandied about stat from a 2020 times article that states past five years 172 people in the UK have reported being the victims of anti-vegan hatecrimes.
For perspective just under 14,500 anti-LGBT hatecrimes were recorded in the UK in 2019 alone. A study carried out by Stonewall in 2017 estimated that ~41% of transpeople had been assaulted solely because of their gender identity.
It was probably a mistake in my earlier comment to say:
Not really a counterpoint since they’re more likely targeted for their queerness not their veganism.
Because it made it sound like these two statistics were in any way comparable.
You can add as many intersectional matrices as you like onto your argument, the persecution of vegans is a puddle when compared the ocean of other groups stuck in the crosshairs of hegemonic bullshit.
Acting like society's biggest victim because meat eaters are getting predictably pissy does nothing but alienate the groups actually in danger out there.
The stats summary described in that quote is about proportion of people with a negative view, not the vehemence. In other words, there's no false equation.
Tell me what systemic bigotry are vegans facing?
Are people losing their jobs for their veganism? Are vegan couples being assaulted on trains? Are there campaigns to have books on veganism burnt to "protect children"? There any politicians and pressure groups trying to campaign parliament to force every vegan to eat animal products?
No? Then all this gesturing at stats is meaningless. Fact of the matter is out there in the real world it's looking rough for queer people and no amount of gesturing to polls about people finding vegans annoying will make your perceived oppression any worse than this.
More hated my arse.
Can you ask some questions that are about what I said, rather than the person in your head that you're dunking on?
Can you explain to me how respondents in one survey about views on various groups having vegans be viewed most negatively makes them somehow more hated than people actively being targeted for eradication by institutional power?
Did I say vegans were "more hated"? See my previous comment and please act like a comrade.
You didn't directly but comment you're defending did.
vegans are viewed more negatively than atheists, immigrants, homosexuals, and asexuals
I will apologise for any offence I've caused though. I'm not in a particularly good mood right now and I feel I've lashed out a little in my writing, so, sorry about that.
It's okay and I don't even need an apology. It's 100% reasonable to be frustrated by comparisons between a less-persecuted identity that is a political position vs. a more-persecuted identity core to someone's existence. And we are all dealing with shit we shouldn't hsvr to. Just wanted us to talk as who we are, ha.
I think it's a good point to say that "more negatively" is misleading in that quote due to it being essentially unquantifiable. And that this could be misused to say that vegans face more personal violence than groups for whom fewer people state a negative opinion/experience (but with, e.g., LGBTQ people facing, for example, terrorism far more often).
Really, it should be possible to find unity in shared experience and empathy, but I think a site culture that forces defensive posturing is getting in the way.
The US state views us as literal terrorists, you know
A lot of the comment is fine (although maybe getting to close to "it's harder being a white vegan than a minority" territory) but this is just wrong. The US state does not give a shit about you just for being vegan, it's when you go into harder activism that they do.
25 year old Sally telling her family that she won't eat meat anymore is at no risk of being targeted by pretty much any government around the world. It's 30 year old Paula who just set fire to a farm that gets targeted or 49 year old Tom who broke in and stolen some animals.
Are they justified in it? Sure, maybe, but it's not like there's gestapo waiting inside Taco Bell for when you order the vegan crunchwrap.
The US state does not give a shit about you just for being vegan, it’s when you go into harder activism that they do.
Being a leftist means actually doing shit, which is why I specified leftist vegans. Libs don't threaten power which is why the govt doesn't go after them, just like it doesn't go after internet commenters like you. I think we made it pretty fucking clear in this comm that being a vegan means fighting for nonhumans, not just being plant based, but hexers can't even read the rules in the sidebar, so I don't expect you to have read any theory. No investigation, no right to speak
Ag Gag laws are for inside farms and factories, it's still not arresting a person simply for being vegan. They're fascist, but it's not "we're being treated as terrorists because I bought the impossible whopper"
Do you actually find that a convincing argument after you just said the government doesn't care what people eat?
Liberal depoliticization of food.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Enterprise_Terrorism_Act
The one that says carnists and their apologists aren't allowed to post here
touch grass
As always the oh so brilliant and original ultimate insult from the "let people enjoy things, no matter what, or I'll say touch grass again" crowd. :hypersus: :very-intelligent:
i also skipped the website for like 6 months to "touch grass" because of the struggle session. a lot of people who TRULY should know better just being willfully dense
:so-true: "DAE want people to only eat tomatoes and cucumber and shit lmao veguums amirite???"
Right, like look at my post history. I'm clearly not here very often, just check in every once in a blue moon. They don't mean "be less online" when they say that, they just mean "shut up and go away." Vegans are very very obviously not welcome here, and it's been that way forever.
I was saying earlier to one of my friends, who used to be a vegan mod here, that hexers don't know their hb history bc the victors pass down site lore and the reactionaries won (and also bc you can't see old posts). So this zombie lie that it was the vegans who started the drama and deserved what we got will never die
I sorta of superficially read through a bit of the struggle session, and wow, I'm glad I mostly stopped visiting here after one of the earlier struggle sessions and was not present for the vegan one.
I think the one of the reason vegans get so much shit even in far-left spaces is that non-vegan leftists must have an even more massive amounts of cognitive dissonance about their lifestyle and diet than the average person. Well, screw them omnivores, they gotta step up!
Stop abusing animals
also lmao the absolute state of hexbear. 12 upvotes on a troll comment by a 5 hour old wrecker account created specifically for this comment shitting on comrades
Hexers: remember the vegan struggle sessions? this is why we shouldn't do lifeboat comms bc they were horrible and we hated vegans talking to us
Me: yeah, I know you hated them. That's why you poured into our comm and harassed us until most of us left or got banned. We were marginalized here bc you're reactionaries who won't stop hurting animals
Hexers: how dare you call yourself marginalized and hated, you all deserve what you got. We're gonna pour into your comm again and tell you you're out of line for posting articles that say mainstream society does the same thing as this microcosm of a website
Just the sheer irony of ppl who clearly hate us coming in to say vegans aren't hated and how dare we acknowledge that we are lol
no you dont understand, user @WhinyVegan is a perfectly good member of the community here for good faith discussions, not a wrecker at all! :very-intelligent:
"It's the minority's fault for being too uppity and not just shutting up and taking the abuse"
stop abusing animals
Is there another pro animal Holocaust struggle session again? Guess I'll have to leave this shit for a year again
The "LET PEOPLE ENJOY THINGS" :hypersus: types don't like even the possibility of feeling bad about what they consume. It's fucking exhausting, as is their "TOUCH GRASS" chanting when called out.
Ironic to be told to touch grass by ppl who don't let their victims touch grass
