i was reflexively uncomfortable with the label 10+ years ago despite not having figured out that i don't have gender
frankly i don't think most cis people actually identify with their gender because they've never thought about it and just coast along on the social default. certainly they don't go through a process or journey the way most non-cis come to our identity labels. If "identify" means proactive and intentional then most cis people don't have a gender identity, only performance.
I don’t think “identify” has to be proactive and intentional. Cis people don’t feel their gender because the entirety of society is set up to passively affirm their gender. They still get upset at being misgendered and would feel dysphoric if they were to live as the opposite gender. When you say, “I don’t feel like I have a gender,” it’s because you’ve put effort into relating your experiences to others’ and found that you just don’t experience certain things that others seem to. When a cis person says, “I don’t feel like I have a gender,” it’s because their gender doesn’t cause them regular pain and they don’t think of whatever they enjoy about it as “part of” their gender. If a man wears a suit and feels good about himself, he doesn’t associate that with his gender, but that experience could very much be considered gender euphoria.
Cis people don’t feel their gender because the entirety of society is set up to passively affirm their gender.
in some ways yes, but in other ways it's constantly assaulting peoples' gender to sell them ridiculous things like tactical baby wipes or extract a pink tax.
If a man wears a suit and feels good about himself, he doesn’t associate that with his gender
sometimes they do. "x makes me feel like a man" isn't a completely alien concept to the cis
i said "most". it's somewhat rare that you actually thought about it. we do need to talk about people like you more, sometimes questioning does resolve to "yeah cisheterarchy guessed corectly" and automatically assuming questioning = queer reinforces some bad social dynamics.
Yeah, I was raised pretty religious. So when I got out I realized that I might have a lot of hidden assumptions that might not be true, turns out I just like women lol.
i don't think most cis people actually identify with their gender
There's definitely a "normal" and "other" attitude towards gender. But I've seen no shortage of insecure cis people obsessed with playing up their roles in one variant or another in an effort to gain social standing.
Hypermasculinity and hyperfeminity as marketing tools regularly drive people into hysterics over their own gender.
If "identify" means proactive and intentional then most cis people don't have a gender identity, only performance.
Idk about that. I think you're confusing identity with anxiety. Cis-folk naturally confirming to their internal gender role don't have to square the circle between social expectations and self-perceptions because they already match.
But when the standards for masculinity or feminity change, they experience the same anxiety-by-contradiction when their personal identity strays from the social norm. Does this contradiction between internal and external perception mean the resolution has to be performative? What does that say about trans-folk? Are they aligned with their gender or are they simply performing as their gender to satisfy social anxiety?
How would a cis-person or a trans-person all alone in the woods behave, absent any social performative expectation of gender? How would a man or a woman behave, broadly speaking?
There's definitely a "normal" and "other" attitude towards gender. But I've seen no shortage of insecure cis people obsessed with playing up their roles in one variant or another in an effort to gain social standing.
and on our end we have GNC people torturing themselves to conform and things like denial beards. How do you tell somebody is doing that stuff because they enjoy it and feel good about it instead of doing it because they think they need to or their parents abused them if they didn't?
How would a cis-person or a trans-person all alone in the woods behave, absent any social performative expectation of gender? How would a man or a woman behave, broadly speaking?
you can't engage with semiotics or gender roles if there aren't any. people with gender assert that they'd feel something in the woods or in an alien society with no concept of gender, and i have no reason to doubt them. It's the social context of performance that makes it affirming, not the physical action of the performance.
you can't engage with semiotics or gender roles if there aren't any.
It definitely gets into a confusing space. Reminds me of the Contrapoints line about the Feminine Penis.
If I'm alone in the woods, what gender is my penis? Do I feel natural growing a beard? What is my identity?
Even cis people think about this stuff. Even cis people who don't have other people around to judge them for it.
people with gender assert that they'd feel something in the woods or in an alien society with no concept of gender, and i have no reason to doubt them.
I'd agree, to some extent. But without established social touchstones, I imagine a lot of what gender becomes is ultimately what you personally invent.
You can have a sense of gender that would be utterly alien to a modern American. A person with a beard and a penis who feels right at home, but still conceives of herself as a woman, for instance.
You can have a sense of gender that would be utterly alien to a modern American. A person with a beard and a penis who feels right at home, but still conceives of herself as a woman, for instance.
i'm not sure how our woods woman is inventing the concept without any access to our culture? the labels we use to describe a poorly understood neurological feature only carry meaning because of the cultural context they arose in.
l think that tracks, especially since genuine "normality" - for what it's worth - seems to stem from a lack of interest in one's own preferences and circumstances.
See also American right wingers leaning on that "silent majority" imagery. If you have to actively identify yourself as normal, you probably aren't. Normal isn't somewhere you go, it's somewhere you end up.
i was reflexively uncomfortable with the label 10+ years ago despite not having figured out that i don't have gender
frankly i don't think most cis people actually identify with their gender because they've never thought about it and just coast along on the social default. certainly they don't go through a process or journey the way most non-cis come to our identity labels. If "identify" means proactive and intentional then most cis people don't have a gender identity, only performance.
I don’t think “identify” has to be proactive and intentional. Cis people don’t feel their gender because the entirety of society is set up to passively affirm their gender. They still get upset at being misgendered and would feel dysphoric if they were to live as the opposite gender. When you say, “I don’t feel like I have a gender,” it’s because you’ve put effort into relating your experiences to others’ and found that you just don’t experience certain things that others seem to. When a cis person says, “I don’t feel like I have a gender,” it’s because their gender doesn’t cause them regular pain and they don’t think of whatever they enjoy about it as “part of” their gender. If a man wears a suit and feels good about himself, he doesn’t associate that with his gender, but that experience could very much be considered gender euphoria.
in some ways yes, but in other ways it's constantly assaulting peoples' gender to sell them ridiculous things like tactical baby wipes or extract a pink tax.
sometimes they do. "x makes me feel like a man" isn't a completely alien concept to the cis
What if I did kinda have a journey and just ended back up where I started?
You prestiged
I believe that’s called the hero’s journey
I like how you came up with two possible responses and just decided to use both. o7 high tier posting.
I think that mostly gets called Cis+ these days.
genuinely surprised that it occurs often enough to have a name
i said "most". it's somewhat rare that you actually thought about it. we do need to talk about people like you more, sometimes questioning does resolve to "yeah cisheterarchy guessed corectly" and automatically assuming questioning = queer reinforces some bad social dynamics.
Yeah, I was raised pretty religious. So when I got out I realized that I might have a lot of hidden assumptions that might not be true, turns out I just like women lol.
There's definitely a "normal" and "other" attitude towards gender. But I've seen no shortage of insecure cis people obsessed with playing up their roles in one variant or another in an effort to gain social standing.
Hypermasculinity and hyperfeminity as marketing tools regularly drive people into hysterics over their own gender.
Idk about that. I think you're confusing identity with anxiety. Cis-folk naturally confirming to their internal gender role don't have to square the circle between social expectations and self-perceptions because they already match.
But when the standards for masculinity or feminity change, they experience the same anxiety-by-contradiction when their personal identity strays from the social norm. Does this contradiction between internal and external perception mean the resolution has to be performative? What does that say about trans-folk? Are they aligned with their gender or are they simply performing as their gender to satisfy social anxiety?
How would a cis-person or a trans-person all alone in the woods behave, absent any social performative expectation of gender? How would a man or a woman behave, broadly speaking?
and on our end we have GNC people torturing themselves to conform and things like denial beards. How do you tell somebody is doing that stuff because they enjoy it and feel good about it instead of doing it because they think they need to or their parents abused them if they didn't?
you can't engage with semiotics or gender roles if there aren't any. people with gender assert that they'd feel something in the woods or in an alien society with no concept of gender, and i have no reason to doubt them. It's the social context of performance that makes it affirming, not the physical action of the performance.
It definitely gets into a confusing space. Reminds me of the Contrapoints line about the Feminine Penis.
If I'm alone in the woods, what gender is my penis? Do I feel natural growing a beard? What is my identity?
Even cis people think about this stuff. Even cis people who don't have other people around to judge them for it.
I'd agree, to some extent. But without established social touchstones, I imagine a lot of what gender becomes is ultimately what you personally invent.
You can have a sense of gender that would be utterly alien to a modern American. A person with a beard and a penis who feels right at home, but still conceives of herself as a woman, for instance.
i'm not sure how our woods woman is inventing the concept without any access to our culture? the labels we use to describe a poorly understood neurological feature only carry meaning because of the cultural context they arose in.
sexless capitalist worker drone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Women_Have_Better_Sex_Under_Socialism
l think that tracks, especially since genuine "normality" - for what it's worth - seems to stem from a lack of interest in one's own preferences and circumstances.
See also American right wingers leaning on that "silent majority" imagery. If you have to actively identify yourself as normal, you probably aren't. Normal isn't somewhere you go, it's somewhere you end up.