Vikings in popular media are just a stand in for an ideal of white masculinity. I hate that everything needs to be so translated to the current cultural climate. Why do people have to see themselves in a character from over 1000 years ago? If you write the story well enough that'll happen anyway. Stories about completely different kinds of people dealing with universal human problems are compelling. Why dumb it down? It's sad.
Related to the "see themselves in a character from over 1000 years ago" thing, some people take a bizarrely literal interpretation of the fact that several gods in the tales break gender norms, and take that as a statement of cultural acceptance without really reading further than that.
When really the Thor crossdressing story is like, pretty distinctly comedic, while both Loki and Odin are routinely insulted and shamed for their breaking of gendered roles, and they actually insult each other over it too(also, a VERY common insult throughout the Eddas is basically accusing others of being unmasculine, which at least one modern translation just straight up renders as an accusation of homosexuality).
Not that I would characterize it as a simple "character flaw" of theirs, but I have always got a distinct feeling that its a very deliberately complicated part of their personalities.
There were some interesting features about their gender roles at least. And I know there were a lot of different independent cultures over Scandinavia, but I've found it interesting how often women would have leadership roles, like Thyra leading armies or how frequently a head priestess could override political decisions.
There are also fictional women in the sagas like Lagertha. I've always liked the story of Thor wrestling Elli, and she's mentioned as being the strongest wrestler in Asgard even if she's an old woman. Thor is congratulated in that story for lasting like 5 seconds against her.
Shield maiden stories tend to emphasize domestic roles for women because the shield maiden virtually always either dies or retires after their one quest is complete
Elli is actually encountered by Thor on his journey to Utgard with Loki. Shes not actually a person, or a god, but something else.
The Jotunn leader of Utgard, Utgard-Loki, challenges Thor, Loki and their servant Thjalfi to various games and each loses. Loki and the Jotunn Logi ate from a trough of meat, and though they both met in the middle, Logi had consumed the entire trough itself as well as all the meat and bones. Thjalfi raced against the Jotunn Hugi, but no matter how fast he ran Hugi always arrived at the end almost instantly. Then Thor was given a horn of mead and told to drain it in three gulps or less, but he could not do it despite taking massive drinks and nearly drowning himself in it. Then he was shown Utgard-Loki's cat and asked to lift it up off its feet, but he could only get it off three paws. By the Utgard-Loki was very unimpressed with the gods and he decided to give Thor an easy test: to wrestle an old woman named Elli. So Thor and Elli wrestled, but he could not beat her despite being the strongest of all the gods, and she brought him down to one knee.
By the end of the story, all three are disheartened by their losses, but as they leave Utgard-Loki explains that he used magic to trick them. Loki was only just beaten by Logi, who is in reality wildfire, and was able to burn through all the food and the wood of the trough itself. Thjalfi raced against Hugi, who is thought, and no one can run faster than they can think.
But it was Thor who was most deceived. When Thor drank from his horn, the other end was in the sea, and so thors massive gulps, which could never have emptied the entire ocean, still removed so much water that he created the tides. When Thor lifted the cat up off only 3 of its paws, he was really lifting Jormungandr, the entire world serpent, up out of the ocean. And when Thor wrestled with Elli, he was grappling with old age, and in spite of the inevitability of old age taking us all, Elli was only able to bring Thor to one knee.
At this point Thor was quite mad at Utgard-Loki, and so he decided to kill him, but by the time he had raised Mjölnir the Jotunn king and all of Utgard had disappeared into thin air.
Yeah, I've always loved this story. I like how metaphysical these stories get, like Loki and Thor are fighting personifications of abstract concepts.
I've also thought it's interesting how many stories there are of the Norse gods losing in battles, or getting tricked by something. Like when Thor meets the ferryman Hárbarðr, Thor doesn't defeat him, he sulks away in shame after getting insulted repeatedly.
Related to the "see themselves in a character from over 1000 years ago" thing, some people take a bizarrely literal interpretation of the fact that several gods in the tales break gender norms, and take that as a statement of cultural acceptance without really reading further than that.
See incest in Ancient Greece, where it was considered vile for people to do and appeared among the gods in part to emphasize that the nature of gods and humans was different.
From what I understand yeah basically, thats also why that one translation I mentioned just straight up renders that one specific insult as "gay", because it has the connotation of unmasculinity/femininity/submissiveness.
I recall reading that it got some negative responses from other translators/historians because it comes off as pretty juvenile in some parts to have the gods just call each other gay, probably a "better" word to translate it to would be the gay slur, in terms of actually translating the level of offense intended with the insult, but I guess as a serious translator you arent really allowed to make the gods call each other f*ggots.
But yeah it was really serious to call another man that insult, IIRC it was justification for demanding a judicial duel, or even murder.
Vikings in popular media are just a stand in for an ideal of white masculinity. I hate that everything needs to be so translated to the current cultural climate. Why do people have to see themselves in a character from over 1000 years ago? If you write the story well enough that'll happen anyway. Stories about completely different kinds of people dealing with universal human problems are compelling. Why dumb it down? It's sad.
Related to the "see themselves in a character from over 1000 years ago" thing, some people take a bizarrely literal interpretation of the fact that several gods in the tales break gender norms, and take that as a statement of cultural acceptance without really reading further than that.
When really the Thor crossdressing story is like, pretty distinctly comedic, while both Loki and Odin are routinely insulted and shamed for their breaking of gendered roles, and they actually insult each other over it too(also, a VERY common insult throughout the Eddas is basically accusing others of being unmasculine, which at least one modern translation just straight up renders as an accusation of homosexuality).
Not that I would characterize it as a simple "character flaw" of theirs, but I have always got a distinct feeling that its a very deliberately complicated part of their personalities.
There were some interesting features about their gender roles at least. And I know there were a lot of different independent cultures over Scandinavia, but I've found it interesting how often women would have leadership roles, like Thyra leading armies or how frequently a head priestess could override political decisions.
There are also fictional women in the sagas like Lagertha. I've always liked the story of Thor wrestling Elli, and she's mentioned as being the strongest wrestler in Asgard even if she's an old woman. Thor is congratulated in that story for lasting like 5 seconds against her.
Shield maiden stories tend to emphasize domestic roles for women because the shield maiden virtually always either dies or retires after their one quest is complete
Elli is actually encountered by Thor on his journey to Utgard with Loki. Shes not actually a person, or a god, but something else.
The Jotunn leader of Utgard, Utgard-Loki, challenges Thor, Loki and their servant Thjalfi to various games and each loses. Loki and the Jotunn Logi ate from a trough of meat, and though they both met in the middle, Logi had consumed the entire trough itself as well as all the meat and bones. Thjalfi raced against the Jotunn Hugi, but no matter how fast he ran Hugi always arrived at the end almost instantly. Then Thor was given a horn of mead and told to drain it in three gulps or less, but he could not do it despite taking massive drinks and nearly drowning himself in it. Then he was shown Utgard-Loki's cat and asked to lift it up off its feet, but he could only get it off three paws. By the Utgard-Loki was very unimpressed with the gods and he decided to give Thor an easy test: to wrestle an old woman named Elli. So Thor and Elli wrestled, but he could not beat her despite being the strongest of all the gods, and she brought him down to one knee.
By the end of the story, all three are disheartened by their losses, but as they leave Utgard-Loki explains that he used magic to trick them. Loki was only just beaten by Logi, who is in reality wildfire, and was able to burn through all the food and the wood of the trough itself. Thjalfi raced against Hugi, who is thought, and no one can run faster than they can think.
But it was Thor who was most deceived. When Thor drank from his horn, the other end was in the sea, and so thors massive gulps, which could never have emptied the entire ocean, still removed so much water that he created the tides. When Thor lifted the cat up off only 3 of its paws, he was really lifting Jormungandr, the entire world serpent, up out of the ocean. And when Thor wrestled with Elli, he was grappling with old age, and in spite of the inevitability of old age taking us all, Elli was only able to bring Thor to one knee.
At this point Thor was quite mad at Utgard-Loki, and so he decided to kill him, but by the time he had raised Mjölnir the Jotunn king and all of Utgard had disappeared into thin air.
Yeah, I've always loved this story. I like how metaphysical these stories get, like Loki and Thor are fighting personifications of abstract concepts.
I've also thought it's interesting how many stories there are of the Norse gods losing in battles, or getting tricked by something. Like when Thor meets the ferryman Hárbarðr, Thor doesn't defeat him, he sulks away in shame after getting insulted repeatedly.
I love these stories lmao
See incest in Ancient Greece, where it was considered vile for people to do and appeared among the gods in part to emphasize that the nature of gods and humans was different.
didn't they also do the thing where it's bad to be gay, but it's not gay if you're the top?
From what I understand yeah basically, thats also why that one translation I mentioned just straight up renders that one specific insult as "gay", because it has the connotation of unmasculinity/femininity/submissiveness.
I recall reading that it got some negative responses from other translators/historians because it comes off as pretty juvenile in some parts to have the gods just call each other gay, probably a "better" word to translate it to would be the gay slur, in terms of actually translating the level of offense intended with the insult, but I guess as a serious translator you arent really allowed to make the gods call each other f*ggots.
But yeah it was really serious to call another man that insult, IIRC it was justification for demanding a judicial duel, or even murder.
I think that was the Romans
a lot of cultures did it
the word bad originiates from the old german for effeminite man and they worshiped a pantheon similar to the norse