Marxist theory can give you insights on how to play the capitalist game. If you read it like a psychopath.
I joke that Capitalists would get the most value (figuratively and literally) from Marx, but are ideologically allergic to the reading.
I've seen quite a few statements from big Wall St. people who have clearly read Marx
I think a lot more capitalists understand Marxist theory than most would think
In principle I agree, but in many ways Wall Street types are Capital's greatest slaves. Since they are dealing with other's money, they also must meet their client's literal unwitting demands. All the analysis in the world won't placate the client screaming "AI! AI! BUY AI!"
Big money managers (large hedge funds and asset management firms like Citadel and Blackrock) make their own decisions/strategies and clients rarely if ever have any input. It's only the small local bank branch types that listen to their clients
The loud ones (Elon, Trump) are the morons who lucked their way into everything. A lot of quiet ones are really good at intentful exploitation
What I mean by "unwitting demands" is the implicit "make me more money, or I will go somewhere else" that unconsciously pervades even Blackrock. They don't actually have to physically listen to understand the investment flow is going towards one market or another. They are excellent surfers, but they aren't making the waves.
Big money makes all the waves and other big money will react to that how they want
See: SoftBank causing a massive tech rally by buying boatloads of call options
http://ft.com/content/75587aa6-1f1f-4e9d-b334-3ff866753fa2
in many ways Wall Street types are Capital's greatest slaves.
They're really, really not.
Taking specific job-related actions, which are not particularly demanding and are firmly within the confines of the job you are hired to do, which pays you very well and transfers lots of the spoils of empire to you, and which you can comfortably quit at any time with no adverse consequence, does not make you a slave.
There are still tens of millions of actual slaves around the globe, people who are trafficked, blackmailed, restricted, or otherwise coerced into labor that they will never be paid comfortably for.
Let's not dilute the depravity of capitalism with something that may seem vaguely affectively equivalent for a couple hours a day.
Smart vampires do read and understand marxist theory. They apply it to become more powerful ghouls.
Absolutely agree, but they aren't making the waves they ride. They are still subsumed in the general thoughtlessness of market forces.
EDIT: When I think of a class that is conscious of Marx, I unironically think of modern China's CCP. When they say they are still transitioning to socialism I believe them. From my standpoint (take with huge grains of salt) is that their program is capturing Capitalism in a kind of Nuclear Reactor. Just enough class antagonisms (capitalist success, hires more workers, worker wages going up incentivize productivity investment, rinse repeat) to increase productivity while using their placement on company boards as a kind of Control Rod to prevent those antagonisms from spiraling into class conflict/warfare.
Hillary Clinton gave a speech talking about how we need to seize the means of production back from China.
She also said we need to Pokémon Go to the polls, doesn't mean she knows what a Pikachu is.
Hillary changes her views more often than a chameleon that I wonder if the Lizard People conspiracy nerds are on to something.
You need both a public and a private position.
Her private positions have usually been pretty consistent.
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/nor-a-lender-be/
I can't remember where, but I've seen Peter Thiel give business advice that's very clearly Evil Marxism.
Matt Bruenig has a great and short tutorial on personal finance and investing, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efr2UORgO2w
the graphic at 17:30 summarizes the hierarchy of savings (1. Emergency fund 2. employer-matched retirement 3. high-interest debt 4. other tax-advantage accounts 5. low-interest debt 6. taxable brokerage account) - he notes that he and most others will never make it to 6.
The graphic at 31:00 summarizes common pitfalls to avoid, unless you have a deep passion. 1. individual stocks 2. crypto 3. house flipping/renting (don't be landlord ... for financial reasons!) 4. expensive homes 5. private k-12 education
I unironically love federation
Your post is clearly in good faith so I won't shit post or try to dunk, just so you know this instance is full of tankies and anarchists, investing is antithetical to our beliefs and any post about investing you see from this community is mocking the whole concept
investing is antithetical to our beliefs
I don't believe the Proletariat having a 401k and/or a Roth IRA in order to survive retirement is antithetical to leftist belief, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Even Marx speculated in the stock market. Ultimately, Leftists refusing to invest will do nothing at all to further expedite the end of Imperialism and eventually Capitalism, all it will create is homeless leftist seniors (if America lasts that long).
It's not about doing it or not doing it as an individual, it's about the very concept being ridiculous. It's almost like a magick ritual to people that buy into all the market bullshit.
Marx sometimes envisioned Capital as a Real God, in the sense that its will is served regardless of the beliefs or individual actions of those in Capitalism, and in that manner sustains "itself" and ensures "its" existence.
Of course, this was based in Materialism, it was always a metaphor.
For me the difference is between survival and personal gain, those funds are a forced compromise
So then, where is the barrier? Is this an argument based in Moralism, or Materialism? The Proletariat can and must do whatever it can to improve its own conditions, and in the absence of a state that provides for it, this must be done via the Market.
I agree that Workers, especially Marxists, should try to reduce their harmful footprints as much as possible. Boycott union busters and supporters of genocide. However, when it comes to retirement savings, there exist no ethical ways to move forward, except to live entirely off the grid and refuse to use banking systems.
Unfortunately, this can lead to reactionary behavior, a turning back of the clock to an earlier stage of Capitalism. That's why homesteading has a huge fascism problem.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think it's productive to say investing is antithetical to leftism, considering the context. That would be like saying purchasing video games is antithetical to leftism, as they are for personal enjoyment yet support Capitalists. I try to think in terms of Dialectics and what materially benefits the proletariat, and ultimately if it becomes a matter of purity testing I believe we lose sight of the goals of Communism.
I dunno, this became a bit of a ramble. I'll end this with a fun quote:
“The moment anyone started to talk to Marx about morality, he would roar with laughter.”
I guess I haven't been clear enough in this thread, I completely agree with you
Retirement funds are an example of unavoidable participation in capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's compatible with a socialist world view
Investing is and will always be antithetical to the immortal science, the goal is to make gains from other people's work
I have money on pension and insurance funds that use all available investment vehicles to maximize their profits, I have to compromise my values to get a (significant) portion of my produced value back because some libs thought that everyone should be an investor instead of feeding and housing old people as a right
Investing is and will always be antithetical to the immortal science, the goal is to make gains from other people's work
Yes, in principle, however in the context of the western proletariat who must engage with the market to ensure their own existence, I do not consider it anti-leftist to give investment advice. Only if it supports landlordism or business ownership outright.
I have money on pension and insurance funds that use all available investment vehicles to maximize their profits, I have to compromise my values to get a (significant) portion of my produced value back because some libs thought that everyone should be an investor instead of feeding and housing old people as a right
I don't believe this structure is because of Liberal ideas, but an attempt by Capitalists to tie Workers' futures to the same mechanism that enriches Capitalists, therefore reducing revolutionary pressure. This is a consequence of Imperialism, it's an effort to turn the Proletariat into complicit Labor Aristocracy.
Yes, in principle, however in the context of the western proletariat who must engage with the market to ensure their own existence, I do not consider it anti-leftist to give investment advice.
I completely agree, the whole point I've tried to make in this thread is that A) investment is antithetical to leftist thought and B) most of us are still forced to participate in it
If you try to optimize your forced investments, I will look down on you
i really do not understand how you're making that distinction. is it "anything specifically earmarked for retirement" is okay and all other investments beyond that aren't okay? what about college funds for children?
another point: it's perfectly conceivable to invest for the future outside a retirement account and still use those proceeds for survival. What if you need expensive medical treatment in your old age and that's the only way you're able to pay for it?
Oh, if it's for your kids' college fund, invest in whatever you want, they obviously deserve more off the value the workers produce than the workers, they are so cute
???? do you think that if someone doesn't invest in a company that share of surplus value is just given back to the worker? it's never going to the worker in the first place under capitalism.
do you think that if someone doesn't invest in a company that share of surplus value is just given back to the worker?
100% of the value the worker produces belongs to the worker, this is at least my basis for Marxist thought
it's never going to the worker in the first place under capitalism.
And this is the first reason for our activism, it should
lol what a mature way of dealing with active questions that play a factor in our daily life, and could be the thing blocking a parent from being a communist.
The parents couldn't be communists if they can't agree with the most basic tenets of Marxism
Are you saying that personal gain from the work of others fits in the socialist world view?
Depends, are you a believer in means/ends unification a la Anarchism, or are you more of a Marxist? Socialism will not be brought about by personally abstaining from retirement accounts and whatnot, and the State does not provide enough of a welfare net to avoid this issue. Workers must invest to survive, as they must consume products of Capitalism.
have been trying to write a reply but both of yours ITT make the point much better than I can
The forced participation in the investment market is a way to make people believe like they own capital while only giving back a pittance from the stolen value
I'm not saying that having a 401k makes you a bad communist, I'm saying that it's against our beliefs
In the absence of a real alternative, I don't think offering investing advice goes against leftist beliefs. After the Revolution, we can do away with investing altogether. But that Revolution is not yet here, and neither is the welfare of Retirement that brings.
I don't necessarily disagree and have retirement accounts myself.
But how do we draw the line between this and buying property to rent to others? Is being a landlord acceptable as a communist if we realize we are forced to participate in the system and need the extra income?
But how do we draw the line between this and buying property to rent to others? Is being a landlord acceptable as a communist if we realize we are forced to participate in the system?
Directly and purposefully shifting from Proletarian to Bourgeoisie is probably not a good move for a Communist. Materially, one could become a Landlord and intentionally take no profit, which would benefit the Proletariat, but would merely be charity work within a dying system. Instead, joining a Renter's Union or owning your own home outright is better, the former helping all of your local proletarians and building up power.
When it comes to investing, it's important to think of aggregates. A Proletarian clawing back some of the wealth stolen from all of the Proletariat does not mean said Proletarian has taken back more Value than they have had taken from them in the first place.
Finally, we must consider what it means to behave Morally in Capitalism. Yes, we all can and should boycott the worst of the system, but unfortunately, we are forced to engage with it. The only path out is to organize, no amount of self-flaggelation and rejection of wealth will change this process. Moralism is a dead-end, Materially.
It's a complicated subject philosophically, so you must consider what your goals are, and why. Communism isn't about being the most morally upstanding victim of Capitalism, but a path to eliminate and replace the system altogether.
Index funds are surprisingly close to market socialism and can be flipped to the benefit of society with little change.
Seems a rather harsh comparison for a state-owned index fund that's operated for the benefit of society!
You're welcome to dunk, I don't mind.
Assuming you engage in wage labor (despite it being antithetical to all of our beliefs) and your employer offers you a greater portion of the fruits of your labor via a matched savings account, is it wrong to accept it? I think it's not wrong at all, and workers should accept and make the most of their 401k.
Bruenig's video is a framework for understanding personal finance from a leftist perspective, or the "personal welfare state" as he calls it. These are things the state should handle, but instead has created a mess of rules we have to decipher.
Assuming you engage in wage labor (despite it being antithetical to all of our beliefs)
I do, and it's not antithetical to my beliefs, it's the only acceptable form of wealth accumulation offered to me right now
is it wrong to accept that?
Yes, it's called solidarity
Bruenig's video is a framework for understanding personal finance from a leftist perspective
It would work better if they actually had a leftist perspective
Most employers offer a match on 401(k) contributions. For example, you contribute $500 per paycheck and the employer contributes $250. By turning down this money, you are literally letting the company you work for keep extra money that would otherwise go to you. Fuck companies. Accept the match, so they can’t keep that extra money. You worked for it.
I’m a Marxist and want the downfall of capitalism. However, I’m investing in total market index funds in case capitalism remains the dominant economic system for the rest of my life, because I don’t want to be a wage slave when I’m tired, old woman.
You are free to do whatever you want, and you are not a bad leftist if you invest
But if you claim that you are not going against the most basic principles of socialism while investing is just sad
The most basic principles of socialism like checks notes letting your employer keep extra value from you by turning down extra money and having to work as a wage slave when you’re 80.
It's not extra money, it's a portion off the money they stole from you
But if you claim that you are not going against the most basic principles of socialism while investing is just sad
A whole lot of things in our lives go against basic principles of socialism, not sure how this is that much different.
The difference is between capitulating on principles and capitulating for survival
Thanks for explaining. I won't be joining you in the boycott of retirement accounts, but I understand your issue of profiting from other's work.
I'm not boycotting retirement accounts, I have one myself, I just wanted to try to explain my ideology
Thanks for a good faith reading of my comment
spoiler
some people here absolutely invest, you see it come up occasionally, always goes along the lines of "well you should at least do index funds for retirement/etc. or you're just losing your money to inflation".
I've always felt a bit reticent about those style posts. Also the person you're replying to probably thinks of themselves as on the left, given the citing Matt Bruenig. Shame that bruenig actually really sucks (iirc?)
In an ideal world I wouldn't have to mess around with weird abstract passive income in general since the concept and the means mostly just irritate me, but I do already have a 401k as a job perk and I may need supplementary income.
Living in the imperial core it's almost impossible to avoid being involved in investments, be it pension or social security funds
It's the age old question of ethical consumption under capitalism, personally I draw the line between surviving with the cards you were dealt and trying to gain advantage
We live in a capitalist economy, at this point it is absolutely dominated by finance and speculation rather than real growth and production, and it is pretty hard to survive long term without investing, particularly if you ever want to buy a house. House prices tend to rise faster than inflation, so you're losing on both inflation and appreciation. I don't think this should be the way it is, but it is the way it is. House prices and the rental market are linked by future cash flows so there's no escaping it unless you are homeless.
I'm not talking about survival, I'm talking about principles of the ideology
Investments are like haram in Islam, you don't wrong anyone if you are forced to it
Could be, but I won't assume bad faith if they haven't given me a reason
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I'm ready to get dunked on but here we go
spoiler
I'm engaging in speculative trading (meaning: buying and holding stocks for 3-5 years) and betting on the rise of a multipolar world. In practice this mean for me: I pick a stock in the Chinese market that I think will eventually outperform a western company (e.g. EV, semiconductor, fusion, renewables, etc. - actually I picked a company that's on the US blacklist) and buy an amount where I'm ready to lose the money (I'm aware of the privilege) and just hold it. I follow the news mega so I get a good dose of financial press to keep up.
to contributing to the fall of the US hegemony and the rise of a multipolar worldCheck out this person over here, thinking they can be a communist like this. Everyone knows communists need to forsake all wealth and worldly possessions to achieve enlightenment!
spoiler
I don't want to go into very specifics for various reasons, but can elaborate on the approach/process and thinking. Also the risk involved.
We are in decades weeks times and there's a lot of geopolitical shifts happening. This means lots of investment/speculation opportunities. Dialectical and historical materialism let's you understand the laws governing these shifts and helps you find investment opportunities easier™ (This felt soo dirty to type lol)
Following the news mega and reading the coping and seething in WSJ, CSIS, FT etc. articles in regards to China, reading our comrades very insightful comments to contextualize I have been able to get a sense of what industries are interesting to look at.
As a starting point I took the US entity list/blacklist of Chinese companies that you're not allowed to trade. Since I'm euro based, this doesn't apply to me so I took it from there. Must be a reason why they're forbidden fruit, right? This is a major risk though. Euros are cucked by US foreign policy and might follow suit. Your assets can be frozen, stock can be worthless, etc.
First of all it'll require lots of reading and research on the industry/company you'd like to invest in. Find out what they're making and what their strategy is. Also take into consideration what the CPCs strategy is i.e. don't buy evergrande when the CPC has been signaling not to
Once you have a pick (ideally basket of picks to diversify risk), stick with it for 3-5 years. Any news that comes out will have a major impact on the stock price, so you'll need to have nerves of steel. You're not doing day trading after all (which is pure casino).
There's significant financial risks involved, so be prepared to lose it all. Just look at the Russian sanctions how far things can go. The geopolitical rift between china and the US is heating up so never know how it can go.
Good luck
Unless you look for companies that are not on the blacklist but in a geostrstegic industry. You'd still have the risk that they could end up on the blacklist..
Kinda? The Proletariat in western countries is forced to invest to retire, unless you can get pensions or a large safety net. The stock market has already been "solved," the answer is broad market-cap weighted globak funds with low expense ratio. Anything else is mysticism and gambling.
Yep, invest in index funds. If the entire market crashes, then either a) you have much bigger more immediate problems or b) we just did communism.
Tbhbbq if it generates income, which can be spent on Good™️ stuff, and doesn’t hurt anyone in the process, I don’t have a problem with it—like that brief moment in time I had $4,000 and I spent close to $1K just giving money to my other homeless friends, including helping my junkie friends stay well here and there.
dialectical synthesis tells us there are SOME books that SHOULD be burned
Basically the point I am trying to make, Workers clawing back their stolen value from the stock market is fundamentally different from mass accumulation from the bourgeoisie.
Parts of it are illegible like the dollar signs, and all the circle emblems scream the chatgpt art style, especially the hammer and sickle at the top
That is true, they likely just replaced the initial garbled AI text.
The graphics are very obviously machine learning generated imagery
