I just had an almost really good moment with a group of students where the main guy that was arguing against me was going to have to make some pretty big admissions (he was defending trickle down economics and he was going with the old reliable"if you don't earn enough just work hard and come up with a better product so you can get rich"). However, a few people quickly started to say "well if Socialism is so good how come vuvuzuela cuba etc. etc." and this was a really tough point, because this is in Puerto Rico so one of them has been to Cuba, and he said something about how he couldn't believe the conditions they lived in. Funny enough, he just meant most people didn't own cars. But I really, really didn't want to risk saying that Cuba's conditions are actually great, or that Castro was a good leader, because that would just make me look like I'm insane to a crowd of young people who've heard nothing but "Cuba bad" their whole lives. I kind of lost control of the conversation at that point and I didn't get much progress; I'm afraid I may have even poisoned the well since I'm now kinda the Cuba Stan in a lot of their minds.
So yeah, how do you avoid this? I want to get some people to recognize that capitalism doesn't work, but it's really hard to do that when they're been brainwashed this badly. I don't want to do the "you could just be a demsoc" routine, but is that my only option? I'd prefer not to have to tell half truths about reformism being viable, but I also don't want to be the guy telling people to buy guns.
Cuba literally has a longer life expectancy than US
And the Communists achieved that while under a 6 decade long blockade
Castro is a great leader though and a hero to the world outside of US and its puppets in Nato
I think a crass statement like "Castro was great and a hero actually" would make you sound like a lunatic to uneducated libs and they'll immediately shut off.
You can't convince people immediately that who they thought was a dictator was actually a hero, you'll seem like a conspiracy nut. You have to cause doubt in their current beliefs and convince them over time that they've been lied to. Then you can start presenting a new ideology to them.
Confidence is attractive though. Confidence without knowledge is not though so I would read up on Cuba and get to a level where i feel confident in saying that
And what are you gonna do: say Castro sucks and you just want more rich people paying taxes?
Castro is a hero outside of US borders
I mean, this is exactly why I was asking though. I don't want to be the guy defending Castro in front of such a large group. I'd happily do it on a 1 to 1 conversation once we're back on campus, but over text? Most people wouldn't read over the entire conversation and all I'd do is, as UmbraVivi said, look like a lunatic. I would rather just try to stay on topic. I think I'm probably at my best when criticizing capitalism, since I'm pretty good at explaining how the relation between worker, capital, and owner is exploitative.
Also you could hit em with the
“Oh, so Venezuela should abandon socialism and become capitalist like Europe or the US?”
Lib: yes.
“The percentage of Venezuela’s economy that is publicly owned is less than France...”
Actually is better to just come out and say it outright. It's like a seed in their mind. How silly they think your assertion is, it forces them to consider it, or to try to justify their believes with evidence, if only privately. You won't convince people overnight, but you do expand their range of thought.
I've never been to either puerto rico or cuba but isn't cuba economically far better off than puerto rico, and isn't puerto rico's population falling drastically with basically economic refugees fleeing to the US? Considering both are somewhat large islands in the same region (granted cuba is much larger), and they were both colonized by the US, they are essentially a case study for what capitalism and socialism can provide for people in the area
I'm aware, but how do I get this through in a way that libs can understand? Like, I know it's an uphill battle, but how is it possible to get these people to completely change their opinion on the biggest boogeyman of the Caribbean?
in my experience, being enthusiastically and unabashed in your opinion is a good way to sow doubt im them. you won't entertain their talking points, just say like "cuba is fucking amazing, 80yr life expectancy on a tiny hermit kingdom island" and just leave it at that. will open those people up in the future
I will always have one answer to this kind of question. He says it so much better than I could.
Thank you! Parenti's lectures are definitely powerful. I also thought about dropping some quotes from Why Socialism, it's a STEM chat so it might be kind of surprising for some of them to hear about Einstein's politics.
I tried linking a lib to a transcript of this and his response was "How do we know those Cubans aren't like North Koreans who say they love their leader but keep trying to escape to South Korea?"
Ugh. Like he’s literally talking about medical and literacy programs, not some cult of personality shit.
But that’s when the libs say “they only teach people to read so they can brainwash them with communist propaganda“ which is such a galaxy brain idea
Well that clinic is actually there, right? Those people can actually read. Those are objective things that are true regardless of what people have to say about it.
Those darn propaganda clinics, healing people just so that they worship the party.
This is so good. I've used the "compare to what it was before, not to a nation that has gotten rich through colonialism" argument quite e few times and it mostly seems to work, provided it's a good faith conversion.
I think if you have a major economic embargo set on you by the largest economy in the world and its allied trading partners its pretty obvious you're not going to have iPhones, cheap cars or even stuff like agricultural tools, pesticides, and medicine. So obviously Cuba's 'problem' (not having access to products) has everything to do with trade barriers and little to nothing to do with internal socialist policy and economic structure. Venezuela is in a very similar position.
You can look at China which is/was highly centralised economy that pretty much fucks every western Econometrics and has done for decades. Or you can compare milder socialist experiments of Europe such as Denmark or Portugal. Europe is good to look at because many countries implement socialist policies (that can be individually measured) and they also have the huge advantage of market access that China and Cuba simply don't have. Look at the cost and quality benefits of state funded medicine, education and prison/rehabilitation systems and overall living standards in much of Europe and it's far superior to countries that implement ardent capitalism. Europe obviously isnt a perfect example of socialism as its wider economy is more capitalism weighted and its policies vary pretty wildly intra and internationally. It's difficult to measure 'Socialism' as a whole, (because no EU countries flipped from capitalist to socialist overnight), we can still analyse the benefits or costs of small progression of socialism through socialist policy implementation without having to take into account tariffs and embargos.
Edit: Also don't fall into the trap of defending incompetent leadership. It happens in socialism and capitalism. If Trump were to destroy a business, sector, or a whole economy this is typically interpretated as a failure of leadership, not capitalism. The same grace should be applied to socialism.
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.
Explain the simple fact that venezuela had a private sector of something like 70 or 80 percent all focused on oil. Ask them if having higher private sector than the US makes Venezuela socialist. Tell them Maduro tried to nationalize the industry but it became too late, their entirely oil based economy collapsed, and the country fell apart. Doesn’t seem like socialism did it to me.
Don’t bother trying to convince people, I think people need to reach conclusions on their own. It’s more productive imo to just explain your position and try and understand theres (Which involves challenging it ofc but not with the expectation of changing someone’s mind). Of course sometimes that means they don’t like you anymore (and sometimes you’ll find out you don’t like them), so it’s up to you if you want the smoke lol
Venezuela: talk about how the US recently helped undermine an election and install a fascist. Cuba: talk about how sanctions stopped them buying cars and how the US has been trying to annex them since the 19th century. Bring up Guantanimo bay and how the US pays Cuba 4000 USD per year to allow a massive torture dungeon and military base on their small island.
