It may be justified, but it's not usually tactical, especially not now. It's ALWAYS best to advocate for and push for a peaceful revolution, even if it's not possible. Socialists need to be seen as a force for order and prosperity.
Oh, you’re talking about knocking on the door of the Whitehouse and politely asking for control of the state. I see.
I'm saying that you advocate and push for peaceful revolution. I'm not saying that's the thing that actually happens.
And even if violence does happen, you have to present a vision of peace and shared prosperity to work for once you come through the other side of it. Does that make sense?
Sounds like a good way to give people a false hope and have them undertake all the wrong strategies and get crushed by the state. You take power, no ones gonna give it to you, that should be a given. Thinking otherwise will leave you entirely unprepared and doing all the wrong things to get there.
I guess. That's not really advocating for peaceful revolution though, just peaceful post-revolution. You need to use violence though, so pushing for a peaceful revolution will get a lot of people confused about the use of violence that will inevitably occur in the pursuit of peace.
peacefull revolution is an impossible achievement, there has never been a successfull peacefull revolution in history, because all revolutions are authoritarian by nature and authority is violent, if allende would have purged the fascist in the military his revolution would have been successfull.
after the mensheviks sided with the liberals in the duma and decided to continue the unpopular war with germany the bolsheviks had to declared another civil war to not only save the russians from the meat grinder that was ww1, but also to achive the dictatorship of the proletariat and achieve a socialist state
catolonia has to mass execute the fascists it capture, forced them into labor camps and torture them for informantion, and if they lived they were sent to an spanish gulag they had, these were nesesary to safeguard their revolution
the bourgeoisie will never give up their power peacefully, consentions maybe, but never power and if they stop liking the consetions given to the socialist they will simply support a fascists like in germany and italy and by that point peace isnt an option
peacefull revolution is an impossible achievement, there has never been a successfull peacefull revolution in history, because all revolutions are authoritarian by nature and authority is violent, if allende would have purged the fascist in the military his revolution would have been successfull.
I think you missed my point- You should always advocate for a peaceful revolution, even if it isn't possible, which it might not be. That doesn't mean that peaceful revolution is the thing you ultimately do, but it has to be the thing you publicly want.
We're ultimately trying to replace the violence and tyranny and of the bourgeoisie and the chaos of the market. Socialism/Communism is a force for order and construction. People should get into it with the belief that it will make their lives more prosperous and less turbulent and chaotic, and it's easier for them to do that if you're not seen as someone who wants to spread violence and death.
I think it's absolutely necessary to market socialist ideas as an enactment of violence against the wealthy and powerful in service of the working class and poor. As opposed to the status quo of violence against the working class and poor in service of the wealthy and powerful.
Anything else is just going to confuse people and not get them hyped. Everyone wants to shoot their boss in the back of the head.
Workers don't even need to read theory unless they really want to. We just need to agitate the fuck out of them by explaining a better world.
At some point that theory becomes practice and there isn't even really a need for it as people's material conditions will push them towards liberation.
Workers don’t even need to read theory unless they really want to. We just need to agitate the fuck out of them by explaining a better world.
Agitation is good for having people join us and to inspire moral, but if we really want them to be truly on our side we must assure they understand the importance of our mission.
We need them to understand theory and if they cant then we must read and understand it ourselfs to help them learn, if we keep the theory to ourselfs we risk causing splitting between the vanguard and the prolereriat and that would ensure our downfall.
also about your second point, its wrong, because it was revitionism that ended the soviet union, people like khrushchev didnt understand marxist theory and in thinking he was saving the USSR for the evils of stalin he doom it with his policies.
i know its boring and long but theory is really important not only to succeed in the revolution but also to make sure it survives
You're right and I'm totally wrong. It's very important to educate as many workers as possible and continue to educate them until every last person on earth understands.
Socialism can't be achieved in a generation, probably not even in 10 generations. It'll take hundreds of years of trial and error to root out reaction and totally destroy any traces of capitalism from the earth.
I guess I worded it poorly when I said they don't need to be educated. I really meant they don't need to be educated to be in a position to join a revolution. In the aftermath of that (initial violent) revolution, it is absolutely necessary to educate everyone though.
You should always advocate for a peaceful revolution, even if it isn’t possible, which it might not be. That doesn’t mean that peaceful revolution is the thing you ultimately do, but it has to be the thing you publicly want.
yeah, publicly is makes sence i give you that, but we should always be ready to achive our goal through violent if it means success.
now for violence i dont always mean killing people, we should be ready to intimidate political enemies and other to achieve progress when possible, whether is through stikes, protests or just appering at someone door to scare them off.
you know to destablelize the state, but be must also be ready to take arms at any moment because the capitalists will outlaw any leftish movement that gets too strong, and at that moment we must wage war against the bourgeois state
lets start a Struggle session, i will go first- Violence is always justify whent taking control over the state from the bourgeoisie -
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It may be justified, but it's not usually tactical, especially not now. It's ALWAYS best to advocate for and push for a peaceful revolution, even if it's not possible. Socialists need to be seen as a force for order and prosperity.
VOTE.
Not what I'm saying.
Oh, you're talking about knocking on the door of the Whitehouse and politely asking for control of the state. I see.
I'm saying that you advocate and push for peaceful revolution. I'm not saying that's the thing that actually happens.
And even if violence does happen, you have to present a vision of peace and shared prosperity to work for once you come through the other side of it. Does that make sense?
Sounds like a good way to give people a false hope and have them undertake all the wrong strategies and get crushed by the state. You take power, no ones gonna give it to you, that should be a given. Thinking otherwise will leave you entirely unprepared and doing all the wrong things to get there.
I guess. That's not really advocating for peaceful revolution though, just peaceful post-revolution. You need to use violence though, so pushing for a peaceful revolution will get a lot of people confused about the use of violence that will inevitably occur in the pursuit of peace.
deleted by creator
peacefull revolution is an impossible achievement, there has never been a successfull peacefull revolution in history, because all revolutions are authoritarian by nature and authority is violent, if allende would have purged the fascist in the military his revolution would have been successfull.
after the mensheviks sided with the liberals in the duma and decided to continue the unpopular war with germany the bolsheviks had to declared another civil war to not only save the russians from the meat grinder that was ww1, but also to achive the dictatorship of the proletariat and achieve a socialist state
catolonia has to mass execute the fascists it capture, forced them into labor camps and torture them for informantion, and if they lived they were sent to an spanish gulag they had, these were nesesary to safeguard their revolution
the bourgeoisie will never give up their power peacefully, consentions maybe, but never power and if they stop liking the consetions given to the socialist they will simply support a fascists like in germany and italy and by that point peace isnt an option
I think you missed my point- You should always advocate for a peaceful revolution, even if it isn't possible, which it might not be. That doesn't mean that peaceful revolution is the thing you ultimately do, but it has to be the thing you publicly want.
We're ultimately trying to replace the violence and tyranny and of the bourgeoisie and the chaos of the market. Socialism/Communism is a force for order and construction. People should get into it with the belief that it will make their lives more prosperous and less turbulent and chaotic, and it's easier for them to do that if you're not seen as someone who wants to spread violence and death.
It depends on who you're marketing to. If you're talking to radlibs fully agree.
If you're talking on this website, there's no need and you can go mask-off.
I think it's absolutely necessary to market socialist ideas as an enactment of violence against the wealthy and powerful in service of the working class and poor. As opposed to the status quo of violence against the working class and poor in service of the wealthy and powerful.
Anything else is just going to confuse people and not get them hyped. Everyone wants to shoot their boss in the back of the head.
we must show them the class oppresion inherent in the system so they join our cause and then make them read theory
Workers don't even need to read theory unless they really want to. We just need to agitate the fuck out of them by explaining a better world.
At some point that theory becomes practice and there isn't even really a need for it as people's material conditions will push them towards liberation.
Agitation is good for having people join us and to inspire moral, but if we really want them to be truly on our side we must assure they understand the importance of our mission.
We need them to understand theory and if they cant then we must read and understand it ourselfs to help them learn, if we keep the theory to ourselfs we risk causing splitting between the vanguard and the prolereriat and that would ensure our downfall.
also about your second point, its wrong, because it was revitionism that ended the soviet union, people like khrushchev didnt understand marxist theory and in thinking he was saving the USSR for the evils of stalin he doom it with his policies.
i know its boring and long but theory is really important not only to succeed in the revolution but also to make sure it survives
You're right and I'm totally wrong. It's very important to educate as many workers as possible and continue to educate them until every last person on earth understands.
Socialism can't be achieved in a generation, probably not even in 10 generations. It'll take hundreds of years of trial and error to root out reaction and totally destroy any traces of capitalism from the earth.
I guess I worded it poorly when I said they don't need to be educated. I really meant they don't need to be educated to be in a position to join a revolution. In the aftermath of that (initial violent) revolution, it is absolutely necessary to educate everyone though.
yeah, publicly is makes sence i give you that, but we should always be ready to achive our goal through violent if it means success.
now for violence i dont always mean killing people, we should be ready to intimidate political enemies and other to achieve progress when possible, whether is through stikes, protests or just appering at someone door to scare them off.
you know to destablelize the state, but be must also be ready to take arms at any moment because the capitalists will outlaw any leftish movement that gets too strong, and at that moment we must wage war against the bourgeois state