The comment was mine, and someone responded basically calling me a nazi. Why is racism ok if it's against white people? Both Marx and Engels were white, does that make them capitalist libs?
Just to clarify, I was not saying that it's a common phenomenon in this instance, I just pointed out that I've seen it happen a couple of times, in contrast with the parent comment which said that the instance is racist to anyone not white.
White people are not oppressed on the basis of their skin color or "white ancestry" anywhere in the world. Slurs against marginalized peoples are reification of a violent system. Slurs against white people aren't.
I think it can be possible to be racist to white people on an individual scale, for sure. Or within small scale systems, like for example a school in a poor neighborhood where 95% of kids and staff are black, I definitely think white kids could experience discrimination from other kids in that specific microcosm.
But this is a technicality, a drop in a bucket, really. On a broader scale it's simply not a systemic issue.
I think that when we talk about racism (or patriarchy, for that matter) we're talking about wide systemic oppression, when liberals talk about it in their mind it's the 4th grade version of people being mean to each other based on skin colour. That disconnect between relations to power and individual acts of prejudice really trips people up, especially if they haven't been exposed to leftist (both communist and anarchist) thought.
when liberals talk about it in their mind it's the 4th grade version of people being mean to each other based on skin colour.
I think the question "Can you be racist towards white people" is about exactly this, though. I think when we're talking about whether we're racists for using the word "cracker", this is what we're talking about as well.
And it's not an illegitimate question either, it's not like people treating you differently because of your skin color stops being a thing past 4th grade.
I'm mostly being pedantic here. I think you can be racist towards white people, and I even think that white people can experience discrimination in our current world, but that is mostly hypothetical. It's delving into "What if the only way to save a child's life is to say the n-word" territory, honestly.
Right, but I think the larger point is that until white people become the victims of systemic oppression based on race, it's currently not possible to be racist towards white people by the definition of the word that includes power dynamics. Maybe that's why we have to clarify it as systemic racism.
Racism in the sense that we use it refers to systemic oppression, whereas an individual would be expressing prejudice or bigotry. Discrimination at such a small scale generally would not be considered racism because the neighborhood, at least in America, would still be part of the systematic oppression of black people in the US, and racial animus between the black students and white students would need to be understood within the context of the much larger system of racial oppression.
People get confused because there are multiple definitions of racism and the definition has shifted from racism on an individual level to systemic racism. You can be racist to white people if you define racism as being on an individual level, but on a systemic level being racist to white people is impossible. Because these definitions are not clearly set out, people get confused.
White perceptions are what end up counting in a white-dominated society. If whites say [Indigenous people] are savages (be they of the “noble” or vicious type), then by God, they’ll be seen as savages. If [Indigenous people] say whites are mayonnaise-eating Amway salespeople, who the hell is going to care?
honestly idgaf when somebody "targets" me for being white. I've never been structurally opressed and denied basic human dignity by my government for being a mayo, i've never had to worry about the possible consequences if i out myself as white, i've never gotten vicious glares and nasty comments and sexual harassment for looking as if get sunburn too easily, i've never had healthcare denied to me for being a cracker, i've never have been suggested conversion therapy to stop being a honky. I've experienced all of that and then some for being a trans woman. That's why i can use all of these "racial slurs" against my race and view them as funny banter while hearing any variation of the t slur makes my skin crawl: Because one is not connected to a lifetime of trauma inflicted on me for who i am, while the other is, and actively plays a part in fortifying and maintaining the system that holds a knife to my throat.
People can have prejudice against white people and can be hateful against them, but that's an insignificant, individual act of hostility that is not backed up by a systemic threat. Anybody who's ever had to live under a systemic threat should understand the difference. You can't be racist against white people, because racism is part of a power dynamic that in our world is a white supremacist one. Likewise, there is no such thing as discrimination against cis people or heterophobia or misandry. It's just not a thing because our society is still built to benefit cishet men and turn women and queers into a permanent underclass.
Fair enough. And sorry about coming down on you. There's just a prevalent feeling of banging one's head against a wall that comes with politics that defy the overton window.
We throw around cracker, kkkracker, Yakubian bleach demon, mayo, and joke about mayocide a lot and pretty much always in relation to white Americans doing something horrible or obnoxious. I don't think most people are using it in an essentializing way, which sounds weird, but I think we're using it for "White" in the sociopolitical sense, to highlight the power of white supremacy in politics by using pejorative words in a way similar to how white supremacists use racial slurs. So the joke isn't that all people with pale skin share common traits due to superficial appearance, but rather a way of mocking white supremacy and white American culture by juxtaposing it with white supremacist language. Which ties in to racism being systematic oppression and white people not being subjected to systematic oppression anywhere, thus you can't be racist against white people. Prejudicied? Bigoted? Sure, because those are individual qualities. But racism requires that there be a system of oppression in place that oppresses the group, and that doesn't exist for white people.
Whiteness is an artificial cultural construct synthesized during the colonial era as a means of constructing and justifying the artificial hierarchy of racial pseudoscience that spawned from the increasingly racialized chattle slavery that was perpetuated by, primarily, the British Crown in the Americas over the century of colonization prior to the declaration of independence by the 13 colonies.
Whiteness and who qualifies as "white" expands and contracts depending on the historical and material circumstances that arise from the economic base that undergirds the wider cultural superstructure. The most recent example is how turks, pale chicanos, and Ukrainians are concidered to be white while some of the former Yugoslav states, Hungarians, Russians, and Byelorussians lost their "whiteness" based off of their economic opposition to the U.S
The comment was mine, and someone responded basically calling me a nazi. Why is racism ok if it's against white people? Both Marx and Engels were white, does that make them capitalist libs?
Just to clarify, I was not saying that it's a common phenomenon in this instance, I just pointed out that I've seen it happen a couple of times, in contrast with the parent comment which said that the instance is racist to anyone not white.
White people are not oppressed on the basis of their skin color or "white ancestry" anywhere in the world. Slurs against marginalized peoples are reification of a violent system. Slurs against white people aren't.
Oh hey you're about to start the "can you be racist to white people" discourse again even though last time the answer was a resounding no.
I think it can be possible to be racist to white people on an individual scale, for sure. Or within small scale systems, like for example a school in a poor neighborhood where 95% of kids and staff are black, I definitely think white kids could experience discrimination from other kids in that specific microcosm.
But this is a technicality, a drop in a bucket, really. On a broader scale it's simply not a systemic issue.
I think that when we talk about racism (or patriarchy, for that matter) we're talking about wide systemic oppression, when liberals talk about it in their mind it's the 4th grade version of people being mean to each other based on skin colour. That disconnect between relations to power and individual acts of prejudice really trips people up, especially if they haven't been exposed to leftist (both communist and anarchist) thought.
I think the question "Can you be racist towards white people" is about exactly this, though. I think when we're talking about whether we're racists for using the word "cracker", this is what we're talking about as well.
And it's not an illegitimate question either, it's not like people treating you differently because of your skin color stops being a thing past 4th grade.
I'm mostly being pedantic here. I think you can be racist towards white people, and I even think that white people can experience discrimination in our current world, but that is mostly hypothetical. It's delving into "What if the only way to save a child's life is to say the n-word" territory, honestly.
Right, but I think the larger point is that until white people become the victims of systemic oppression based on race, it's currently not possible to be racist towards white people by the definition of the word that includes power dynamics. Maybe that's why we have to clarify it as systemic racism.
:this:
Racism in the sense that we use it refers to systemic oppression, whereas an individual would be expressing prejudice or bigotry. Discrimination at such a small scale generally would not be considered racism because the neighborhood, at least in America, would still be part of the systematic oppression of black people in the US, and racial animus between the black students and white students would need to be understood within the context of the much larger system of racial oppression.
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People get confused because there are multiple definitions of racism and the definition has shifted from racism on an individual level to systemic racism. You can be racist to white people if you define racism as being on an individual level, but on a systemic level being racist to white people is impossible. Because these definitions are not clearly set out, people get confused.
Hence why I am unconcerned with it, whatever other arguments there are here.
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Why? What does race have to do with anything, this just makes your argument hateful and targeting a race instead of a political belief.
Reverse racism is a myth.
honestly idgaf when somebody "targets" me for being white. I've never been structurally opressed and denied basic human dignity by my government for being a mayo, i've never had to worry about the possible consequences if i out myself as white, i've never gotten vicious glares and nasty comments and sexual harassment for looking as if get sunburn too easily, i've never had healthcare denied to me for being a cracker, i've never have been suggested conversion therapy to stop being a honky. I've experienced all of that and then some for being a trans woman. That's why i can use all of these "racial slurs" against my race and view them as funny banter while hearing any variation of the t slur makes my skin crawl: Because one is not connected to a lifetime of trauma inflicted on me for who i am, while the other is, and actively plays a part in fortifying and maintaining the system that holds a knife to my throat.
People can have prejudice against white people and can be hateful against them, but that's an insignificant, individual act of hostility that is not backed up by a systemic threat. Anybody who's ever had to live under a systemic threat should understand the difference. You can't be racist against white people, because racism is part of a power dynamic that in our world is a white supremacist one. Likewise, there is no such thing as discrimination against cis people or heterophobia or misandry. It's just not a thing because our society is still built to benefit cishet men and turn women and queers into a permanent underclass.
In what way does calling you a cracker reinforce a system of race-based oppression?
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it's a just a mean word on the internet, cracker has no power, are the cops about to beat your ass and call you a cracker because you're white? no lol
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Being able to make abstract arguments about political issues and not worry about race is exactly why we bring it up.
Do you believe that this current moment is completely isolated from the rest of history?
You only responded to the person who validated you on your terms and none of the people who had something for you to learn
I read the comments, I had nothing to say. I'm not sure I agree but I sort of understand.
Fair enough. And sorry about coming down on you. There's just a prevalent feeling of banging one's head against a wall that comes with politics that defy the overton window.
🥰
We throw around cracker, kkkracker, Yakubian bleach demon, mayo, and joke about mayocide a lot
and pretty much always in relation to white Americans doing something horrible or obnoxious. I don't think most people are using it in an essentializing way, which sounds weird, but I think we're using it for "White" in the sociopolitical sense, to highlight the power of white supremacy in politics by using pejorative words in a way similar to how white supremacists use racial slurs. So the joke isn't that all people with pale skin share common traits due to superficial appearance, but rather a way of mocking white supremacy and white American culture by juxtaposing it with white supremacist language. Which ties in to racism being systematic oppression and white people not being subjected to systematic oppression anywhere, thus you can't be racist against white people. Prejudicied? Bigoted? Sure, because those are individual qualities. But racism requires that there be a system of oppression in place that oppresses the group, and that doesn't exist for white people.
I still need to make snow roach catch on
quite fond of cumskin personally
They're not white. They're Germans.
Whiteness is an artificial cultural construct synthesized during the colonial era as a means of constructing and justifying the artificial hierarchy of racial pseudoscience that spawned from the increasingly racialized chattle slavery that was perpetuated by, primarily, the British Crown in the Americas over the century of colonization prior to the declaration of independence by the 13 colonies.
Whiteness and who qualifies as "white" expands and contracts depending on the historical and material circumstances that arise from the economic base that undergirds the wider cultural superstructure. The most recent example is how turks, pale chicanos, and Ukrainians are concidered to be white while some of the former Yugoslav states, Hungarians, Russians, and Byelorussians lost their "whiteness" based off of their economic opposition to the U.S
Cracker is not a racist word. You can call is classicist maybe.
Cracker is from "whip-cracker" I think
It's classist against slave owners