I'd honestly rather see "CW: <description>" as a tag on posts, make sure moderators can add it even if a poster doesn't think to do it, and enforce that it's meant to be kept serious. what's NSFL for you may not be for me and vice versa so a description really helps.
I had described most of these ideas in another thread some time ago...
TL;DR: adding NSFL tags has almost no cost and significant benefit, simple "CW:<...>" has higher cost with insufficient benefit, better tagging might be achievable.
long comment...
I think "CW: <...>" would be good, but implementing that correctly requires much more effort.
For example it would be nice to have closed-captions/alt-text on all image posts, but OPs are often lazy or do not know what to include.
Best solution would be allowing other users, so not OP themselves, to add alt-text/content-warnings/tags onto posts.
But implementing something like that correctly would take time.
In my opinion crowd sourced tagging really is the way to go, and anything implemented now could risk creating inconsistencies with future systems.
For example, I would like all non-vegan posts to be tagged "vegan/CW:carnism" but that is highly opinionated and not something OPs would tag themselves or even a category of tags that all users want to see.
Putting all the effort of tagging onto mods is not sufficient, that is too much work, they do not have reaction time, and mod opinions/discernment/interests do not cover the range of all applicable tags.
A better system might be to grant regular users global tagging privileges within specific categories of their interest. Then make tag categories optional to display, and click ··· to show hidden tags.
Another tag category could be "trauma", including things like "trauma/CW:religion" but again that is not something OPs or even most mods would care about tagging everything.
The problem with simple "CW: <...>" is precisely that which things are CW worthy for you, might not be for others, and multiple "CW" tags on everything is spammy/clutter so it needs to be selectively optional first.
Just like setting pronouns, adding "CW: <...>" will have pushback if it is not optional for both posters and users.
Especially considering that "CW: <...>" is highly opinionated. For example withing trauma communities things like "CW:incest" are further obfuscated into "CW:in***t" and even that is arguably better filtered rather than visibly tagged.
But then having open ended <description> makes filtering nearly impossible. Meanwhile "alt-text/<description>" could be useful. So really there has to be some kind of curation/expertise within each tag category.
Simple NSFL tag seems to me like a good stopgap solution, and that level of effort and discernment is reasonable to expect from all OPs.
The idea of what is NSFL is much like NSFW something that we could agree upon as a culture. NSFL just means traumatic for the majority of people.
Adding simple "CW: <...>" has the risk of requiring effort without being reliable enough for people that depend on CW to actually use this website.
The same applies with closed-captions/alt-text; if those tags are so sparsely added then people using them just leave anyway.
Requiring people to do things for marginalized groups, even if that work is done by mods, unfortunately can cause some resentment.
Almost nobody that really depends on detailed content-warnings is using ChapoChat, random terfs/trolls/nazis show up all the time, this is hardly a safe space.
Something like "CW: <...>" could easily provide a false sense of security if not sufficiently crowd sourced to be responsive and comprehensive.
Or there would have to be "CW: unchecked" added by default, but even that is less useful that "vegan/unchecked" and "truama/unchecked" and so on...
Because it takes some amount of experience/expertise to know what things need tagging within these various domains.
It has to be worth the cost-benefit. NSFL tags have effectively no cost, usage can be enforced by mods.
"CW: <...>" has a cost but in my opinion benefit is just not there until it can be organized into categories and crowd sourced.
The most important thing to me is that ChapoChat needs to maintain some degree of a carefree attitude.
I do not mean anything goes, but rather that it should be accessible to lazy people and those with lingering liberalism.
If people are worried about making mistakes while posting because they did not alt-text/content-warnings/tags correctly, that could be the end of ChapoChat.
There is no worry associated with using NSFL incorrectly; if anything having an NSFL tag makes posting NSFL content less worrisome.
Best solution would be allowing other users, so not OP themselves, to add alt-text/content-warnings/tags onto posts.
yeah, agreed. I said somewhere else mods should be able to add them and I think initially that's best while people get used to thinking through the consequences of what they're doing (or we wouldn't be having this conversation -- people put joke titles with NSFW on images of gore)
Simple NSFL tag seems to me like a good stopgap solution, and that level of effort and discernment is reasonable to expect from all OPs.
sure, there's no reason we can't iterate, I'm just saying that the ideal situation is that we can tag stuff so people know what to avoid.
Adding simple “CW: <…>” has the risk of requiring effort without being reliable enough for people that depend on CW to actually use this website.
I think people will learn relatively fast, especially with community pressure.
Requiring people to do things for marginalized groups, even if that work is done by mods, unfortunately can cause some resentment.
well, yeah. look at this thread, lol. I don't think that's a reason not to do something, it only means that we have a lot of work to do.
Almost nobody that really depends on detailed content-warnings is using ChapoChat, random terfs/trolls/nazis show up all the time, this is hardly a safe space.
I think the point is that we'd like it to be.
Something like “CW: <…>” could easily provide a false sense of security if not sufficiently crowd sourced to be responsive and comprehensive.
as you said, no one who depends on those is here right now anyway. the best time to start a change was yesterday, the second best time is today.
Or there would have to be “CW: unchecked” added by default, but even that is less useful that “vegan/unchecked” and “truama/unchecked” and so on…
no these aren't helpful.
It has to be worth the cost-benefit. NSFL tags have effectively no cost, usage can be enforced by mods.
as I said, it's not all or nothing. we can add NSFL and CW and let the usage of the latter grow over time / with encouragement.
The most important thing to me is that ChapoChat needs to maintain some degree of a carefree attitude. I do not mean anything goes, but rather that it should be accessible to lazy people and those with lingering liberalism.
I don't think that's going anywhere.
If people are worried about making mistakes while posting because they did not alt-text/content-warnings/tags correctly, that could be the end of ChapoChat.
I very much doubt that anyone will ever be that worried about them. as you said, there's a carefree attitude here. and I mean, look at this thread -- people can't work up the care to press a couple of buttons that they ultimately don't care about.
Utopian as fuck?
no, just very pessimistic on the possibility for change. and I mean, this thread is good reason to be, but I think the effect of this will be that most people choose to tag themselves. a similar kind of back and forth will happen with CW (I doubt as severe as there isn't the same perception of moral judgement at play) and ultimately, I'd rather this be a safe space than an unsafe one. people get hurt here and that gets old real fast.
I'd honestly rather see "CW: <description>" as a tag on posts, make sure moderators can add it even if a poster doesn't think to do it, and enforce that it's meant to be kept serious. what's NSFL for you may not be for me and vice versa so a description really helps.
I had described most of these ideas in another thread some time ago...
TL;DR: adding NSFL tags has almost no cost and significant benefit, simple "CW:<...>" has higher cost with insufficient benefit, better tagging might be achievable.
long comment...
I think "CW: <...>" would be good, but implementing that correctly requires much more effort.
For example it would be nice to have closed-captions/alt-text on all image posts, but OPs are often lazy or do not know what to include.
Best solution would be allowing other users, so not OP themselves, to add alt-text/content-warnings/tags onto posts.
But implementing something like that correctly would take time.
In my opinion crowd sourced tagging really is the way to go, and anything implemented now could risk creating inconsistencies with future systems.
For example, I would like all non-vegan posts to be tagged "vegan/CW:carnism" but that is highly opinionated and not something OPs would tag themselves or even a category of tags that all users want to see.
Putting all the effort of tagging onto mods is not sufficient, that is too much work, they do not have reaction time, and mod opinions/discernment/interests do not cover the range of all applicable tags.
A better system might be to grant regular users global tagging privileges within specific categories of their interest. Then make tag categories optional to display, and click ··· to show hidden tags.
Another tag category could be "trauma", including things like "trauma/CW:religion" but again that is not something OPs or even most mods would care about tagging everything.
The problem with simple "CW: <...>" is precisely that which things are CW worthy for you, might not be for others, and multiple "CW" tags on everything is spammy/clutter so it needs to be selectively optional first.
Just like setting pronouns, adding "CW: <...>" will have pushback if it is not optional for both posters and users.
Especially considering that "CW: <...>" is highly opinionated. For example withing trauma communities things like "CW:incest" are further obfuscated into "CW:in***t" and even that is arguably better filtered rather than visibly tagged.
But then having open ended <description> makes filtering nearly impossible. Meanwhile "alt-text/<description>" could be useful. So really there has to be some kind of curation/expertise within each tag category.
Simple NSFL tag seems to me like a good stopgap solution, and that level of effort and discernment is reasonable to expect from all OPs.
The idea of what is NSFL is much like NSFW something that we could agree upon as a culture. NSFL just means traumatic for the majority of people.
Adding simple "CW: <...>" has the risk of requiring effort without being reliable enough for people that depend on CW to actually use this website.
The same applies with closed-captions/alt-text; if those tags are so sparsely added then people using them just leave anyway.
Requiring people to do things for marginalized groups, even if that work is done by mods, unfortunately can cause some resentment.
Almost nobody that really depends on detailed content-warnings is using ChapoChat, random terfs/trolls/nazis show up all the time, this is hardly a safe space.
Something like "CW: <...>" could easily provide a false sense of security if not sufficiently crowd sourced to be responsive and comprehensive.
Or there would have to be "CW: unchecked" added by default, but even that is less useful that "vegan/unchecked" and "truama/unchecked" and so on...
Because it takes some amount of experience/expertise to know what things need tagging within these various domains.
It has to be worth the cost-benefit. NSFL tags have effectively no cost, usage can be enforced by mods.
"CW: <...>" has a cost but in my opinion benefit is just not there until it can be organized into categories and crowd sourced.
The most important thing to me is that ChapoChat needs to maintain some degree of a carefree attitude.
I do not mean anything goes, but rather that it should be accessible to lazy people and those with lingering liberalism.
If people are worried about making mistakes while posting because they did not alt-text/content-warnings/tags correctly, that could be the end of ChapoChat.
There is no worry associated with using NSFL incorrectly; if anything having an NSFL tag makes posting NSFL content less worrisome.
Utopian as fuck?
yeah, agreed. I said somewhere else mods should be able to add them and I think initially that's best while people get used to thinking through the consequences of what they're doing (or we wouldn't be having this conversation -- people put joke titles with NSFW on images of gore)
sure, there's no reason we can't iterate, I'm just saying that the ideal situation is that we can tag stuff so people know what to avoid.
I think people will learn relatively fast, especially with community pressure.
well, yeah. look at this thread, lol. I don't think that's a reason not to do something, it only means that we have a lot of work to do.
I think the point is that we'd like it to be.
as you said, no one who depends on those is here right now anyway. the best time to start a change was yesterday, the second best time is today.
no these aren't helpful.
as I said, it's not all or nothing. we can add NSFL and CW and let the usage of the latter grow over time / with encouragement.
I don't think that's going anywhere.
I very much doubt that anyone will ever be that worried about them. as you said, there's a carefree attitude here. and I mean, look at this thread -- people can't work up the care to press a couple of buttons that they ultimately don't care about.
no, just very pessimistic on the possibility for change. and I mean, this thread is good reason to be, but I think the effect of this will be that most people choose to tag themselves. a similar kind of back and forth will happen with CW (I doubt as severe as there isn't the same perception of moral judgement at play) and ultimately, I'd rather this be a safe space than an unsafe one. people get hurt here and that gets old real fast.