speaking as someone who thinks they are agender or genderqueer, "no pronoun" might be a nice option for agender. i think you have to either have pronouns or just refer to people directly. "agender" doesn't really point towards what you should do.
I think @TransComrade69 is taking these requests to get them added to the list.
Adding "by name" could be better because then at least people know what to do.
Also "comrade" is a pronoun that could be used even for those with "no pronoun" making it technically incorrect.
a separate spoiler tag
This is a great idea that allows people to do their joke posts without diluting the usefulness of NSFW/NSFL/CW tags. Love it!
They have content warnings that can have any text, these are used for everything from NSFW, NSFL, spoilers, joke punchlines and hiding long posts not everyone is interested in. IIRC they were added by popular demand of the large mastodon lgbt community among others and its really became a part of the culture, some instances/circles CW a broader range of topics than others (like selfies or politics) and that’s ok. White a few users say what they CW or request what posts should be CWed when tagging them.
Ultimately it’s quite a leap from what other sites sites and has an impact on the posting culture, wether it’s right for Lemmy or ChapoChat I don’t know.
Personally I think it’s a good idea to be aware of how the rest of the fediverse works to be able to decide where compatibility is desired. (unless that’s being left to the upstream devs) Because a lot of features people are asking for, like better NSFW, polls, and other features that might be wanted in the future like image descriptions etc already exist on the fediverse in some form.
how it looks in two different apps
link to post to have a look from the web
I honestly have no idea what this post is about, it’s the first CW post I found, so sorry for it being about forskin.
In most clients you can have them as show by default and some might be able to hide or show by default based on keywords you choose? Not sure.
Only potential problem I see is that NSFW is being used so much as a joke.
When you avoid NSFW that means missing out on funny shitposts.So if NSFL is added there should probably be a rule/notice that it can only be used seriously.
I'd honestly rather see "CW: <description>" as a tag on posts, make sure moderators can add it even if a poster doesn't think to do it, and enforce that it's meant to be kept serious. what's NSFL for you may not be for me and vice versa so a description really helps.
I had described most of these ideas in another thread some time ago...
TL;DR: adding NSFL tags has almost no cost and significant benefit, simple "CW:<...>" has higher cost with insufficient benefit, better tagging might be achievable.long comment...
I think "CW: <...>" would be good, but implementing that correctly requires much more effort.
For example it would be nice to have closed-captions/alt-text on all image posts, but OPs are often lazy or do not know what to include.Best solution would be allowing other users, so not OP themselves, to add alt-text/content-warnings/tags onto posts.
But implementing something like that correctly would take time.In my opinion crowd sourced tagging really is the way to go, and anything implemented now could risk creating inconsistencies with future systems.
For example, I would like all non-vegan posts to be tagged "vegan/CW:carnism" but that is highly opinionated and not something OPs would tag themselves or even a category of tags that all users want to see.Putting all the effort of tagging onto mods is not sufficient, that is too much work, they do not have reaction time, and mod opinions/discernment/interests do not cover the range of all applicable tags.
A better system might be to grant regular users global tagging privileges within specific categories of their interest. Then make tag categories optional to display, and click ··· to show hidden tags.Another tag category could be "trauma", including things like "trauma/CW:religion" but again that is not something OPs or even most mods would care about tagging everything.
The problem with simple "CW: <...>" is precisely that which things are CW worthy for you, might not be for others, and multiple "CW" tags on everything is spammy/clutter so it needs to be selectively optional first.Just like setting pronouns, adding "CW: <...>" will have pushback if it is not optional for both posters and users.
Especially considering that "CW: <...>" is highly opinionated. For example withing trauma communities things like "CW:incest" are further obfuscated into "CW:in***t" and even that is arguably better filtered rather than visibly tagged.
But then having open ended <description> makes filtering nearly impossible. Meanwhile "alt-text/<description>" could be useful. So really there has to be some kind of curation/expertise within each tag category.Simple NSFL tag seems to me like a good stopgap solution, and that level of effort and discernment is reasonable to expect from all OPs.
The idea of what is NSFL is much like NSFW something that we could agree upon as a culture. NSFL just means traumatic for the majority of people.Adding simple "CW: <...>" has the risk of requiring effort without being reliable enough for people that depend on CW to actually use this website.
The same applies with closed-captions/alt-text; if those tags are so sparsely added then people using them just leave anyway.
Requiring people to do things for marginalized groups, even if that work is done by mods, unfortunately can cause some resentment.Almost nobody that really depends on detailed content-warnings is using ChapoChat, random terfs/trolls/nazis show up all the time, this is hardly a safe space.
Something like "CW: <...>" could easily provide a false sense of security if not sufficiently crowd sourced to be responsive and comprehensive.Or there would have to be "CW: unchecked" added by default, but even that is less useful that "vegan/unchecked" and "truama/unchecked" and so on...
Because it takes some amount of experience/expertise to know what things need tagging within these various domains.It has to be worth the cost-benefit. NSFL tags have effectively no cost, usage can be enforced by mods.
"CW: <...>" has a cost but in my opinion benefit is just not there until it can be organized into categories and crowd sourced.The most important thing to me is that ChapoChat needs to maintain some degree of a carefree attitude.
I do not mean anything goes, but rather that it should be accessible to lazy people and those with lingering liberalism.
If people are worried about making mistakes while posting because they did not alt-text/content-warnings/tags correctly, that could be the end of ChapoChat.
There is no worry associated with using NSFL incorrectly; if anything having an NSFL tag makes posting NSFL content less worrisome.Utopian as fuck?
Best solution would be allowing other users, so not OP themselves, to add alt-text/content-warnings/tags onto posts.
yeah, agreed. I said somewhere else mods should be able to add them and I think initially that's best while people get used to thinking through the consequences of what they're doing (or we wouldn't be having this conversation -- people put joke titles with NSFW on images of gore)
Simple NSFL tag seems to me like a good stopgap solution, and that level of effort and discernment is reasonable to expect from all OPs.
sure, there's no reason we can't iterate, I'm just saying that the ideal situation is that we can tag stuff so people know what to avoid.
Adding simple “CW: <…>” has the risk of requiring effort without being reliable enough for people that depend on CW to actually use this website.
I think people will learn relatively fast, especially with community pressure.
Requiring people to do things for marginalized groups, even if that work is done by mods, unfortunately can cause some resentment.
well, yeah. look at this thread, lol. I don't think that's a reason not to do something, it only means that we have a lot of work to do.
Almost nobody that really depends on detailed content-warnings is using ChapoChat, random terfs/trolls/nazis show up all the time, this is hardly a safe space.
I think the point is that we'd like it to be.
Something like “CW: <…>” could easily provide a false sense of security if not sufficiently crowd sourced to be responsive and comprehensive.
as you said, no one who depends on those is here right now anyway. the best time to start a change was yesterday, the second best time is today.
Or there would have to be “CW: unchecked” added by default, but even that is less useful that “vegan/unchecked” and “truama/unchecked” and so on…
no these aren't helpful.
It has to be worth the cost-benefit. NSFL tags have effectively no cost, usage can be enforced by mods.
as I said, it's not all or nothing. we can add NSFL and CW and let the usage of the latter grow over time / with encouragement.
The most important thing to me is that ChapoChat needs to maintain some degree of a carefree attitude. I do not mean anything goes, but rather that it should be accessible to lazy people and those with lingering liberalism.
I don't think that's going anywhere.
If people are worried about making mistakes while posting because they did not alt-text/content-warnings/tags correctly, that could be the end of ChapoChat.
I very much doubt that anyone will ever be that worried about them. as you said, there's a carefree attitude here. and I mean, look at this thread -- people can't work up the care to press a couple of buttons that they ultimately don't care about.
Utopian as fuck?
no, just very pessimistic on the possibility for change. and I mean, this thread is good reason to be, but I think the effect of this will be that most people choose to tag themselves. a similar kind of back and forth will happen with CW (I doubt as severe as there isn't the same perception of moral judgement at play) and ultimately, I'd rather this be a safe space than an unsafe one. people get hurt here and that gets old real fast.
C’mon comrades, show solidarity, choose they/them if you don’t want random internet people knowing your gender.
Also, please please make sure your titles make it explicitly clear when it’s a picture of some chud lying there with his face blown off, I wanna make sure I don’t miss that kind of content.
the difference between this thread and the one where we announced the pronoun tags in the first place is staggering. look at the votes on this thread: 25% of people are mad about pronouns. really feeling that solidarity.
don't be, you're a saint with unbelievable patience and fortitude. ❤️
Greatly appreciate what you all have done. You all managed to create the only good place on the internet :cat-trans: :cat-trans: :cat-trans:
25% of people are mad about pronouns. really feeling that solidarity.
what part of gender abolition don't you get?
the part where it means TERF shit about eliminating gender identity rather than the abolition of the social construct that represses our own authentic expressions of our identities.
As an actual gender abolitionist, miss me with that TERF shit as well, put 'any pronoun' or if you hate all of them request a 'no pronouns' option. Just cause its a construct doent mean that its not real or its not important. Allowing people to choose pronouns does build towards abolition, fuck.
There, I set mine. Seems like a small thing to do if it helps people feel more comfortable.
The point of having them sitewide is for everyone to use them to normalize explicitly stating one’s pronouns as a means of not forcing trans people to request to be addressed with basic respect. The amount of pushback on a meaningful step toward trans inclusivity in this community is pretty fucking disheartening, not gonna lie.
A podcast I listen to with 3 hosts, one trans and two cis, does this. The only need there is for one to correctly state their gender. If she didn't, there would be constant misgendering. If she did alone, there would be constant transphobia for being the only person making an issue of it. Instead they use this system and it's a nice show of solidarity which creates a trans-positive atmosphere for any guests and listeners rather than an empty performative gesture. If I'm against it because I'm cishet and there isn't any trauma attached to people misgendering me, that's just being a dumbass liberal who can't see past themselves.
They still deal with transphobia too but it is often shifts the aimed at the whole show "YOU SAID PRONOUNS WHYYYY instead of just Alice being targeted.
Their audience is split between people who understand its ideological leanings and people who want disaster porn. I'm not sure if it's more by virtue of being a STEM podcast or by virtue of youtube being liberal even on its lefty side, but that's a deradicalisation project more than it is starting from a neutral place and and making it better. In the absence of normalisation it's left being abnormal and a lot of people react to abnormal things with default hostility if only through ignorance.
Yeah I was saying how all of them saying pronouns just protects Alice a little bit.
Well There's Your Problem has a lot of potential. They still haven't nailed the right pace or balanced their personalities enough but it's one of the most interesting podcasts in my line-up and a good example of creating an inclusive space.
Also the guy had his own channel before, do not eat, his shit is great.
For the libs shouting “but muh anonymity”, you should have zero issue using the “any pronoun” tag as you will be addressed with any pronouns regardless of whether or not you have it set.
Can we just make this standard and then if people don't like "any pronoun" they can either switch to an actual pronoun or shut the fuck up because there's no blank option?
that deals with the people getting misgendered part but 👀 the transphobia in this thread. that's a whole other thing we also have to deal with.
People in privileged positions advantaged by a system of hierarchy will pushback against anything that takes away their privileged position. In society as socialists we all agree that class-interests based on accumulated wealth affect people's politics, this occurs in other hierarchies too. Cis white men demonstrate a form of patriarchal-interest by pushing back against anything and everything that aims to chip away at the social system that advantages them - patriarchy.
Leftists are not immune to this. It is why patriarchy continues to be an issue in socialist states and will continue to be an issue in any society that solves the class issue. It's also why class reductionism is ridiculous.
fully agreed, I'm saying we can't avoid the struggle, as much as I'd love to burn this thread down and never step foot into another thread about pronouns ever again. so as much as you're right that we can reduce the pronoun problem, I'm not sure we serve ourselves well by eliminating the problem through edict rather than by engaging in the struggle.
The problem is that I'm not sure they will EVER change their tune until patriarchy is completely dismantled. They will act in their group-interest in much the same way liberals with enough wealth will act in their class interests.
We can create class-traitors but we can't effectively achieve a change among them all without eliminating patriarchy altogether, at which point there will no longer be a "class interest" dynamic among the cis white men and they will no longer defend against the loss of the privileged position. They will default to the new normal social organisation of no-patriarchy existing at all.
Unlike with economic class interests there's also no solution rooted in accelerationism or various wealth groups in society growing/shrinking or the kind of situation where it might be hard to achieve socialism in the core but easy within the periphery where class interests differ greatly. It's an absolutely monstrous battle when you consider it in that way and I suspect the ONLY way to resolve it is simply by authoritarian smashing of the patriarchy to establish the new norm and no amount of struggle will change people's minds to make them all go against their social-interests.
I will personally dox, hunt down, and execute every single stupidpol TERF on this site. :ak47: :AC-AnarKitty: :gui-trans:
Probably the easiest way to achieve the goal of pronoun display with the fewest people getting upset because they're being told what to do.
I think that's the part that gets to me. "hey do this or you're a lib" is a personal attack that people are comparing to all kinds of shit. am I going foggy or is "you're a lib" one of the standard responses to people on this site?
I'm kind of glad we didn't have the default and this happened. would have sucked to be blindsided by more serious transphobia later on while continuing to believe this place was the same as a couple of months ago (full-throatedly and unanimously in support of trans people).
Yeah this seems like a good compromise between people wanting to maintain anonymous status online and displaying pronouns. Yeah just have it default to "any pronoun" if the user doesn't pick one.
Countertake: trans people who aren't sure of their gender identity shpuldn't be criticized for leaving it blank.
you're right but it's also disheartening. the floor is what happened on the old sub - I can't tell you the number of times I replied very gently to people to say that "he" was wrong and to please use "she" instead and was uniformly ignored. moreover, the insignificant effort asked vs the response in this thread points to a serious level of transphobia in this community. some of that is on display in this thread but I think that's just the tip of the iceberg.
if we're serious that transphobia/misogyny/etc. aren't welcome here, we should do more than just post about it -- let the bans and warnings flow more freely.
imagine if rebr0 had tried to build this site instead of beatnik lmao
every comm would be for beto rule 34
Can confirm, chapo would have died with the ban if not for Beatnik
Small asks that imply to the person reading (be they privileged and fragile) tend to get upset when met with the fact that, “if you’re asking for this and I haven’t done that or don’t want to, that means you’re saying I’m BAD, I’m not bad, YOU’RE BAD”
Like that time I gently asked that people consider avoiding intelligence based insults.
This is why we all have to fight, this is why solidarity is so important.
Intelligence based insults are removed.
This is a joke. I just wrote the word “removed” in italics.
I'm really disappointed after reading through this thread. If you refuse to take 5 seconds and virtually 0 effort to extend the bare minimum of courtesy to a marginalized group, you don't have solidarity with the oppressed, and you're certainly not thinking or acting like a leftist. I understand that people are at different stages in their radicalization (which is to be expected) but please show some respect and love for our trans/nb comrades instead of digging in your heels over an issue that seems trivial to you. There's a lot of self-centered thinking in this thread from clearly privileged folks.
A lot of cis people love saying ''trans rights'' until they're asked to show the tiniest bit of solidarity. How can we expect you to have our backs when you can't even be bothered to click a button?
And I understand that many don't see it as being a big deal, but normalizing it really is. I've been to leftist spaces irl where I haven't felt safe sharing my pronouns because they didn't mention it so I had no idea if they were terfs or not. (At least one did turn out to be terf though ew but still) And accepting being misgendered in leftist spaces because I don't know if it's safe or not just fucking sucks.
And I know it's different in anon online spaces, I'm not scared to share my pronouns here, but again it helps normalizing it. /end rant
I think a good idea is having it default to "any pronoun" if a user doesn't pick a pronoun. That way people who are concerned about being anonymous can stay anonymous and every user will have a pronoun flair. Also it takes 5 seconds to set pronouns, and if someone says it makes them more comfortable, I'll do it personally.
