Saying it's an op is cope to avoid confronting the fact that maintaining a healthy culture within a large online community is really difficult and that human beings are frequently eager to meet points of friction as threats rather than expose themselves to the vulnerability of thorough self-examination.
I agree. Can’t stand the blanket statements characterizing folks as transphobic bc it’s such an easy way for bad actors here to draw lines and sew division. Srsly if anyone wanted to infiltrate this place and ruin it for the whole gang all they’d need to do is hop on these struggle seshes and push the discourse that way.
The people pushing it are wreckers that would rather burn down one of the most active leftists spaces on the internet than feel even the smallest iota of personal discomfort.
I think that's fine. You should not be pushed to publically use pronouns if you don't want to.
The comment I responded to said people pushing pronoun use are trying to burn down a leftist space because they don't want to experience discomfort (the discomfort being invalidated in their gender identity). You are talking about a separate issue.
I think the problem isn't that trans people are being misgendered (tho you can scroll down and find neo-pronouns being invalidated so that is a part of the issue) but that making selecting pronouns a "trans thing" is harmful and sets people up to be distinct and makes it not the norm. Users don't have to pick a pronoun. If they feel comfortable they should tho. I'm fine with people not picking a pronoun.
I don't think anyone is against pronouns to be available to users. This originally started because a group of users posted that not selecting a pronoun is transphobic. If you are arguing that pronoun use shouldn't be a "trans thing," I agree with you. But it was the original group that based their argument on assuming that all trans people have or want to select a pronoun and that if you don't, it's because you're transphobic.
There are trans posters in this thread that said they don't want to be forced into selecting a pronoun they like a blank default. So maybe the issue is some trans users assuming that their experience on chapo.chat is representative of all trans people. If it's cis users making this into an issue then idk what to say except that they're likely just wreckers
I understand that - I'm not going to condemn not using a pronoun as a transphobic action overall- I would call it garbage allyship if you can and just don't. If you struggle with gender identity I don't count that as a choice to not use a pronoun and respect that. Trans people actually count for a sizeable amount of people who don't want to display their pronouns and I stand with them on that. Basically- if you are cis or comfortable using public pronouns- use them- if you aren't you should not have to.
We need a herd immunity proportion of users to have pronoun tags so everyone is safe, is I think the idea. If most people (who don't have reservations about setting their pronoun tag) did it, that'd be all that'd needed
it only became a big thing in the first place because the initial reaction to the ask was pushback from those who's complaint was that they don't care about setting their pronoun.
so, they have no reason not to other than "idonwanna I shouldn't have to"
then that pissed some of us off and we took to main to solve the issue, but then things started off with an angry tone again, because we posters were mad.
So we, or at least I (I hope), have learned not to post angry anymore, because I totally torpedoed the message I was trying to send, and the behavior I was trying to point out as wrong. Instead it came off as "if you don't go do this fuck you" but what I'd meant was "if you're one of these people actively pushing back against this after saying that you don't care about it at all, and have no skin in the game, that's super shitty. You're refusing to show your comrades solidarity for no real reason"
all nuance was lost and things became confused quickly
why would trans people need to set pronouns anyway? This is an online community, none of our faces are out there. Aren't we all at risk of being misgendered. Like you "Quillquote". That's not a boy name or a girl name. Misgendering you isn't a transphobic action because you're not trans (unless you are, I'm just guessing).
I don't want to be difficult but I think that it legitimately doesn't make sense.
well a lot of them do want that, so I don't think it matters particularly why. At the same time, other people want the opposite, and it also doesn't particularly matter why, and that's fine. I want everyone comfy and safe.
The point is some people want pronouns, and if you have no issues with setting yours doing so would be appreciated by those comrades because it will keep them safer and less targetable.
sorry if it doesn't make sense, It's been a long day haha
yeah I'll keep my flair because I don't want antagonism but I think I'm over it. Nobody's gender is evident here, not just our trans users. Any of us could be misgendered, not just our trans users. Possibly this makes no sense. But I'm also not very smart.
You are misunderstanding. A cis person who is uncomfortable with their gender identity also does not have to use a pronoun. I only believe you should be encouraged- not forced to use a pronoun if you are secure in your gender identity and want it. Not using pronouns does not make you trans or cis- pronouns are a gender signifier not in themselves a gender identity. NB people use she/they or he/they and that doesn't make them cis for example.
That is not what your original comment was about at all. You said the entire discourse was wreckers unwilling to face personal discomfort. The personal discomfort you want them to deal with is being misgendered or not having their pronouns used.
I think there's some level of misunderstanding here. I was specifically referring to the people behind the myriad posts today with the general message of "anyone who doesn't set their pronouns is a TERF/transphobe/piece of shit and needs to leave this website."
Everyone can and should be able to choose pronouns they're comfortable with, and expect other people to respect that. The people I'm referring to are the ones who would kick people out of this space for not wanting to label themselves with a specific gender identity just for posting.
No one should be kicked off for not wanting to use pronouns (which are gender signifiers, not gender identity.) If you choose not to set your pronouns despite not having a problem with gender identity whatsoever- the most common group of people who do this being cis men who just can't be bothered- what exactly is the motivation there and why should I respect it?
Yes, I understand. People want to have everyone set a pronoun. I think cis people should to normalize pronoun use. I also think we should not force anyone to box themselves into the use of a pronoun. The split right now is between people who think it's fine to leave it blank vs people who think someone who does not want to publically specify a pronoun should use "none". I think saying none is also a choice we should not force. I think a conversation is healthy and normal. You seem to think even the discussion is so polarizing it must be a purposeful wreck attempt. You also framed this as a matter of personal discomfort when that is super trivializing.
I was summarizing the stuggle sesh. My entire problem is with the framing of the original comment which makes the entire conversation seem driven by like purposefully negative actors. Acting as if TALKING about pronouns is going to collapse the user base of chapo or something.
Pronoun struggle session is a cia op, change my mind.
Saying it's an op is cope to avoid confronting the fact that maintaining a healthy culture within a large online community is really difficult and that human beings are frequently eager to meet points of friction as threats rather than expose themselves to the vulnerability of thorough self-examination.
(still, this sucks and I hope we're done with it)
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Dammit I read this and it's probably theory and now I have read theory. : (
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I agree. Can’t stand the blanket statements characterizing folks as transphobic bc it’s such an easy way for bad actors here to draw lines and sew division. Srsly if anyone wanted to infiltrate this place and ruin it for the whole gang all they’d need to do is hop on these struggle seshes and push the discourse that way.
The people pushing it are wreckers that would rather burn down one of the most active leftists spaces on the internet than feel even the smallest iota of personal discomfort.
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NORMALIZED OPPRESSION IS NOT PERSONAL DISCOMFORT. Stop expecting people to be happy or okay with being misgendered or having their pronouns not used.
Me not wanting my account to be gendered is normalized oppression how though
I think that's fine. You should not be pushed to publically use pronouns if you don't want to.
The comment I responded to said people pushing pronoun use are trying to burn down a leftist space because they don't want to experience discomfort (the discomfort being invalidated in their gender identity). You are talking about a separate issue.
The issue isn't that trans people are being misgendered though, since people can select their pronouns if they'd like to.
The original comment is that some users are having discomfort because other users aren't selecting a pronoun.
I think the problem isn't that trans people are being misgendered (tho you can scroll down and find neo-pronouns being invalidated so that is a part of the issue) but that making selecting pronouns a "trans thing" is harmful and sets people up to be distinct and makes it not the norm. Users don't have to pick a pronoun. If they feel comfortable they should tho. I'm fine with people not picking a pronoun.
I don't think anyone is against pronouns to be available to users. This originally started because a group of users posted that not selecting a pronoun is transphobic. If you are arguing that pronoun use shouldn't be a "trans thing," I agree with you. But it was the original group that based their argument on assuming that all trans people have or want to select a pronoun and that if you don't, it's because you're transphobic.
There are trans posters in this thread that said they don't want to be forced into selecting a pronoun they like a blank default. So maybe the issue is some trans users assuming that their experience on chapo.chat is representative of all trans people. If it's cis users making this into an issue then idk what to say except that they're likely just wreckers
I understand that - I'm not going to condemn not using a pronoun as a transphobic action overall- I would call it garbage allyship if you can and just don't. If you struggle with gender identity I don't count that as a choice to not use a pronoun and respect that. Trans people actually count for a sizeable amount of people who don't want to display their pronouns and I stand with them on that. Basically- if you are cis or comfortable using public pronouns- use them- if you aren't you should not have to.
So the only people that should be left without a pronoun are trans users? Doesn't that then make that into a trans thing?
We need a herd immunity proportion of users to have pronoun tags so everyone is safe, is I think the idea. If most people (who don't have reservations about setting their pronoun tag) did it, that'd be all that'd needed
it only became a big thing in the first place because the initial reaction to the ask was pushback from those who's complaint was that they don't care about setting their pronoun.
so, they have no reason not to other than "idonwanna I shouldn't have to"
then that pissed some of us off and we took to main to solve the issue, but then things started off with an angry tone again, because we posters were mad.
So we, or at least I (I hope), have learned not to post angry anymore, because I totally torpedoed the message I was trying to send, and the behavior I was trying to point out as wrong. Instead it came off as "if you don't go do this fuck you" but what I'd meant was "if you're one of these people actively pushing back against this after saying that you don't care about it at all, and have no skin in the game, that's super shitty. You're refusing to show your comrades solidarity for no real reason"
all nuance was lost and things became confused quickly
Thanks for the explanation. Makes more sense.
People honestly just need to chill. Rule number 1 is don't be an asshole. So that means:
If people are asking you to set a pronoun if you're comfortable, then be cool and do it
Don't be flippant in calling people transphobes. Because that's going to lose all credibility quickly.
why would trans people need to set pronouns anyway? This is an online community, none of our faces are out there. Aren't we all at risk of being misgendered. Like you "Quillquote". That's not a boy name or a girl name. Misgendering you isn't a transphobic action because you're not trans (unless you are, I'm just guessing).
I don't want to be difficult but I think that it legitimately doesn't make sense.
well a lot of them do want that, so I don't think it matters particularly why. At the same time, other people want the opposite, and it also doesn't particularly matter why, and that's fine. I want everyone comfy and safe.
The point is some people want pronouns, and if you have no issues with setting yours doing so would be appreciated by those comrades because it will keep them safer and less targetable.
sorry if it doesn't make sense, It's been a long day haha
yeah I'll keep my flair because I don't want antagonism but I think I'm over it. Nobody's gender is evident here, not just our trans users. Any of us could be misgendered, not just our trans users. Possibly this makes no sense. But I'm also not very smart.
You do not have to have a flair if you legitimately do not want to, that's important.
You get to decide this for yourself same as anyone
You are misunderstanding. A cis person who is uncomfortable with their gender identity also does not have to use a pronoun. I only believe you should be encouraged- not forced to use a pronoun if you are secure in your gender identity and want it. Not using pronouns does not make you trans or cis- pronouns are a gender signifier not in themselves a gender identity. NB people use she/they or he/they and that doesn't make them cis for example.
How does one person not listing their pronouns cause another person to be misgendered, or stop them from having their pronouns used?
That is not what your original comment was about at all. You said the entire discourse was wreckers unwilling to face personal discomfort. The personal discomfort you want them to deal with is being misgendered or not having their pronouns used.
I think there's some level of misunderstanding here. I was specifically referring to the people behind the myriad posts today with the general message of "anyone who doesn't set their pronouns is a TERF/transphobe/piece of shit and needs to leave this website."
Everyone can and should be able to choose pronouns they're comfortable with, and expect other people to respect that. The people I'm referring to are the ones who would kick people out of this space for not wanting to label themselves with a specific gender identity just for posting.
No one should be kicked off for not wanting to use pronouns (which are gender signifiers, not gender identity.) If you choose not to set your pronouns despite not having a problem with gender identity whatsoever- the most common group of people who do this being cis men who just can't be bothered- what exactly is the motivation there and why should I respect it?
Nobody is being misgendered though. Are you sure you understand what this stuggle sesh is about?
Yes, I understand. People want to have everyone set a pronoun. I think cis people should to normalize pronoun use. I also think we should not force anyone to box themselves into the use of a pronoun. The split right now is between people who think it's fine to leave it blank vs people who think someone who does not want to publically specify a pronoun should use "none". I think saying none is also a choice we should not force. I think a conversation is healthy and normal. You seem to think even the discussion is so polarizing it must be a purposeful wreck attempt. You also framed this as a matter of personal discomfort when that is super trivializing.
Right. Which is not the same thing as misgendering users, which is what you've been posting about
I was summarizing the stuggle sesh. My entire problem is with the framing of the original comment which makes the entire conversation seem driven by like purposefully negative actors. Acting as if TALKING about pronouns is going to collapse the user base of chapo or something.
Well I'm not the op that you originally commented to so lol
I meant the original comment sorry. You responded to my response to the OP so I mixed you two up. Point stands- I'll edit it to read better