"AOC doesn't burn political capital arguing with administration that obviously will not be changing its mind"
sorry but nothing positive will come of that fight and litigating everything within the party before you're a decent-sized caucus won't produce great results; she realizes Biden isn't going to change his mind, and there is literally no alternative in this particular election that can challenge the two party consensus, as shitty as it is
voting doesn't matter but let's not act like the greens have any real power or will have any power for the foreseeable future
enough backbone? no dude she's got basically three other people in Congress, with a handful few more coming in
she can't successfully challenge shit until there's a bigger DSA caucus
every minute spent litigating dumb shit is besides the point of her main value, which is probably just doing really intense casework to help her constituents
that is the real immediate value of AOC and others like her if you're taking the electioneering route here as a strategy, until there's a remotely sizeable enough caucus to successfully challenge shit (which obviously, will take far too long)
you can disagree with it all you like, that's the unshakeable reality of the situation and is the utter limit of the working within the Democratic Party, but change was never going to come from solely within that wretched institution - that doesn't mean it's pointless
No, so why are so many people here talking about her like she is? If you're anti-electorialism, then what the fuck does it matter that AOC (a soc-dem) watered down a Green Party (a barely functioning electoral party) proposal? Like, it should literally be of no significance to you.
EDIT: "OMG a soc-dem did something all soc-dems do, I cannot believe this has happened... and even though I think electoral politics is pointless and I'm a full-blown Marxist, I'll act angry and shocked by this surprising and unexpected news about what this soc-dem did." This is what some of you sound like. A lot of you keep putting her up like she's a full-blown socialist and acts disappointed every time she does something when she never claimed to be that. Same with Bernie.
There will never gonna be a “big” and “leftist” enough caucus to change the policies of the DNC and reform it or push it towards even social democracy, let alone socialism. How mcuh clearer can this be
Buddy, you're making a strawman here to argue against - you're arguing exactly what I am here. I'm not saying AOC is the end-all-be-all of politics. I come from a union family and it's pretty crystal clear to me what the real effort needs to be in is radical labour organization in minimum wage jobs, especially during the pandemic, as something with a ton of value and yet doable in the status quo. If you're idealizing ONE way to get to socialism you're thinking about it all wrong. AOC is the best we can do for an elected rep now. That doesn't mean she's the best we should hope for in 2022, or that maybe we shouldn't expand our hopes too much. We don't know until it happens.
There is still value in having demsocs in office as the best-case scenario for one election, and hoping they go on to do more. This isn't a more moderated version of leftism, meant to expand the appeal (like the neoliberal turn of the 90s for the Democrats) to white grievance voters, this is the first actual ratchet left of American politics in decades in terms of how congress is ideologically composed, probably since Bernie was first elected
you just used two paragraphs to assert things aren't going to happen but you don't outline any of the historical cases you're talking about, or any sort of fundamental theoretical underpinning; sorry but just asserting something six times in a row doesn't make it true or guaranteed
the difference is all of those countries had established left-wing parties, cultures, and institutions
America has absolutely none of those institutions right now (not even as a hollowed-out shell, since anything remotely resembling the New Deal has been purged a very long time ago from the Democrats) and basically has to rebuild them from scratch; there is no electoral or organizational capacity that is stable or extant; you have to build all of those institutions to actually be able to do literally anything, and sorry, you’re going to need to appeal to deeply propagandized people who probably have no fucking idea what a labour union actually is or what socialism means
this isn’t entryism because you’re not really expecting to change the party, it’s just impossible to be elected as a third party in America with how ballot access works
you can’t just look at Europe and apply it to America
her main value, which is probably just doing really intense casework to help her constituents
Casework for her constituents is good, but her real value is helping put leftism in the political mainstream. And she doesn't need to be a Maoist to do that -- she just has to function as an entry point for people to learn that there are alternatives to the left of centrist Democrats.
political capital, time, sheer fucking mindpower, what's the point? they're not going to listen, so why even fucking bother? the media probably won't pick it up for anything but an attack piece on your movement somehow
it doesn't matter what's right or wrong, it matters "what can you get out of some engagement" that you're making politically; you need a way to not get sucked into every stupid media cycle fight that everyone constantly litigates and that don't fucking matter
she's not even changing her personal stance on fracking, she just realizes the obvious fact that a Biden admin doesn't give a shit about the environment and isn't getting drawn into attacking the (very likely) future President on something from her own party
ah yea man it's really smart politics to lose committee assignments (which, to be clear, are your runner's up prize that they'll still give people in safe seats) for pointlessly attacking the nominee when it's clear they're not moving on that file, and the majority of the party now opposes a fracking ban thanks to Biden's actions
I mean also, once again, she still pretty clearly opposes fracking and wants to legislate that, but her wing of the party lost, so they... don't get to do that now? that's how losing works
if you're expecting more from the House I don't know what to tell you, socialism was never going to be built totally by professional politicians, real radicalism is going to have to come from outside of that structure
this is also before he's taken office - you can criticize once, y'know, the President does something bad and still have justifiable cover; the Democrats are just too insane until Trump is gone
"AOC doesn't burn political capital arguing with administration that obviously will not be changing its mind"
sorry but nothing positive will come of that fight and litigating everything within the party before you're a decent-sized caucus won't produce great results; she realizes Biden isn't going to change his mind, and there is literally no alternative in this particular election that can challenge the two party consensus, as shitty as it is
voting doesn't matter but let's not act like the greens have any real power or will have any power for the foreseeable future
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enough backbone? no dude she's got basically three other people in Congress, with a handful few more coming in
she can't successfully challenge shit until there's a bigger DSA caucus
every minute spent litigating dumb shit is besides the point of her main value, which is probably just doing really intense casework to help her constituents
that is the real immediate value of AOC and others like her if you're taking the electioneering route here as a strategy, until there's a remotely sizeable enough caucus to successfully challenge shit (which obviously, will take far too long)
you can disagree with it all you like, that's the unshakeable reality of the situation and is the utter limit of the working within the Democratic Party, but change was never going to come from solely within that wretched institution - that doesn't mean it's pointless
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Yes, thank you. This is such a foundational part of MLM theory that many on the US left need hammered into their brains.
Is AOC a MLM? Or a ML? Or even a M??
No, so why are so many people here talking about her like she is? If you're anti-electorialism, then what the fuck does it matter that AOC (a soc-dem) watered down a Green Party (a barely functioning electoral party) proposal? Like, it should literally be of no significance to you.
EDIT: "OMG a soc-dem did something all soc-dems do, I cannot believe this has happened... and even though I think electoral politics is pointless and I'm a full-blown Marxist, I'll act angry and shocked by this surprising and unexpected news about what this soc-dem did." This is what some of you sound like. A lot of you keep putting her up like she's a full-blown socialist and acts disappointed every time she does something when she never claimed to be that. Same with Bernie.
Not sure why yr getting down voted for this. It's obviously true
yeah like I don't think people realize that ballot access is an intentional wall that will make any third party pointless
welcome to the hard reality of how fucked America is
Buddy, you're making a strawman here to argue against - you're arguing exactly what I am here. I'm not saying AOC is the end-all-be-all of politics. I come from a union family and it's pretty crystal clear to me what the real effort needs to be in is radical labour organization in minimum wage jobs, especially during the pandemic, as something with a ton of value and yet doable in the status quo. If you're idealizing ONE way to get to socialism you're thinking about it all wrong. AOC is the best we can do for an elected rep now. That doesn't mean she's the best we should hope for in 2022, or that maybe we shouldn't expand our hopes too much. We don't know until it happens.
There is still value in having demsocs in office as the best-case scenario for one election, and hoping they go on to do more. This isn't a more moderated version of leftism, meant to expand the appeal (like the neoliberal turn of the 90s for the Democrats) to white grievance voters, this is the first actual ratchet left of American politics in decades in terms of how congress is ideologically composed, probably since Bernie was first elected
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you just used two paragraphs to assert things aren't going to happen but you don't outline any of the historical cases you're talking about, or any sort of fundamental theoretical underpinning; sorry but just asserting something six times in a row doesn't make it true or guaranteed
that's pretty telling
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the difference is all of those countries had established left-wing parties, cultures, and institutions
America has absolutely none of those institutions right now (not even as a hollowed-out shell, since anything remotely resembling the New Deal has been purged a very long time ago from the Democrats) and basically has to rebuild them from scratch; there is no electoral or organizational capacity that is stable or extant; you have to build all of those institutions to actually be able to do literally anything, and sorry, you’re going to need to appeal to deeply propagandized people who probably have no fucking idea what a labour union actually is or what socialism means
this isn’t entryism because you’re not really expecting to change the party, it’s just impossible to be elected as a third party in America with how ballot access works
you can’t just look at Europe and apply it to America
Casework for her constituents is good, but her real value is helping put leftism in the political mainstream. And she doesn't need to be a Maoist to do that -- she just has to function as an entry point for people to learn that there are alternatives to the left of centrist Democrats.
She's a house rep in a solid progressive seat. She has no political capital
political capital, time, sheer fucking mindpower, what's the point? they're not going to listen, so why even fucking bother? the media probably won't pick it up for anything but an attack piece on your movement somehow
it doesn't matter what's right or wrong, it matters "what can you get out of some engagement" that you're making politically; you need a way to not get sucked into every stupid media cycle fight that everyone constantly litigates and that don't fucking matter
she's not even changing her personal stance on fracking, she just realizes the obvious fact that a Biden admin doesn't give a shit about the environment and isn't getting drawn into attacking the (very likely) future President on something from her own party
Yes the precious political capital that would totally be compromised by checks notes opposing something already unpopular with her progressive base
Aside from potentially galvanizing her base, yes nothing positive can possibly arise
Seriously this is just defeatism with extra steps
ah yea man it's really smart politics to lose committee assignments (which, to be clear, are your runner's up prize that they'll still give people in safe seats) for pointlessly attacking the nominee when it's clear they're not moving on that file, and the majority of the party now opposes a fracking ban thanks to Biden's actions
I mean also, once again, she still pretty clearly opposes fracking and wants to legislate that, but her wing of the party lost, so they... don't get to do that now? that's how losing works
if you're expecting more from the House I don't know what to tell you, socialism was never going to be built totally by professional politicians, real radicalism is going to have to come from outside of that structure
this is also before he's taken office - you can criticize once, y'know, the President does something bad and still have justifiable cover; the Democrats are just too insane until Trump is gone