• lntl@lemmy.ml
    ·
    1 year ago

    Haters gonna hate. Still though, they'll need to be cordial if some of these critics are also paying Ukrainian bills. Being rude is the fast track to falling out of favor with foriegn taxpayers.

      • jackmarxist [any]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Well Zelensky did say that he was inspired by Israel and wanted to model Ukraine to be like Israel.

          • jackmarxist [any]
            ·
            1 year ago

            Yeah considering that's what they were doing in Donbass

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Even Prigozhin said that the supposed genocide in Donbas is 100% a Russian propaganda fabrication. Stop parroting that bullshit.

                      • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        Hitler literally claimed that Poland attacked german soldiers.

                        https://www.annefrank.org/en/timeline/24/the-start-of-the-second-world-war-germany-invades-poland/

                        • barsoap@lemm.ee
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          Yes. You're getting close.

                          Now if Hitler, or one of his generals, said that the Poles didn't attack after all, what would you think of that? Might you take it as an admission that the Nazis had lied?

                          • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            1 year ago

                            I concede that, if we live in your counterfactual reality where Hitler did the exact opposite of what he actually did, you'd have a point.

                            I know what you're trying to say but i think you're trying to stretch reality to fit your comparison instead of trying to make an accurate comparison around reality.

                            Maybe you should look for other real world examples that would fit your comparison better. I bet there are plenty of examples of nazis in nations fighting the nazis doing genocide denial during ww2 that you could find.

                            • barsoap@lemm.ee
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              I mean I kinda thought of Hitler and him being a cake-eating vegetarian and then had to improvise afterwards. I did try to pedal back a bit and say "or one of his generals".

                              Oh and it wasn't just Nazis who denied the holocaust back then. There was an IIRC French historian I can't recall the name who went in there not believing such a thing possible, then saw concentration camps with his own eyes, and went on to compile a minimum number, with the intent that if you say a lower one, you're definitely denying because the number is unassailable, as a minimum (but probably higher. Most definitely probably higher, in fact). Threw out e.g. SS reports because they could be claimed to be fabricated to get a promotion and shit.

                      • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        Wouldn't it more be equivalent to Henry Ford or Hearst press during ww2 claiming that the nazis weren't brutalizing black and Jewish soldiers?

                        Nazi public figure claims nazis in enemy country aren't doing bad thing.

                  • AOCapitulator [they/them, she/her]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    You didn’t need to cite hitler as the cake lover, could have picked anyone else

                    You didn’t have to pick the fascist mercenary army leader to agree with you on the other one, either. Yet you did for some reason

                    Is this supposed to prove anything but you have no scruples?

                    • barsoap@lemm.ee
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      I mean hexbears are otherwise so willing to take Russian sources at face value, e.g. when it comes to claims about Russian speakers getting supposedly oppressed and genocided by the Ukrainian state... then why not trust Pregozhin? What makes him less trustworthy than Solovyov?

                      • AOCapitulator [they/them, she/her]
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        I can’t speak for everyone, but I definitely don’t find Russian media particularly trustworthy, we like to do a little thing called critical thinking instead of just blindly accepting things

                      • Egon
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        3 months ago

                        deleted by creator

              • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                I don't trust Russia, but Pringles was not exactly an uninpeachable source of truth himself

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Oh there's plenty of other reasons to impeach Trump. Why would he even be impeached over that, though. I don't really follow US news, it's silly over there.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    His first impeachment was over him extracting personal political benefit from sending weapons to Ukraine that they were using to carry out their ethnic cleansing

                    If the ethnic cleansing were 100% fabricated by Russian propaganda then the Hillary Cliintons of the USA are Putin bots.

                    • barsoap@lemm.ee
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      You are aware that Russia already invaded in 2014? That this war has been going on for a while? Why wouldn't the US send Ukraine aid to defend itself?

                      Regarding the US reaction back then in general, though: Why didn't the US enforce the Budapest memorandum?

                      • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        You are aware that Russia already invaded in 2014?

                        No they didn't. They were already there. The biggest feature of Crimea is the naval base that Russia had been leasing since Ukraine had a legitimately elected government. When the US supported Nazi led coup regime took power they tried to cancel the lease. The Russians simply stayed put. They didn't invade. They were already there.

                        Are there any more fundamental understandings of recent history you would like me to catch you up on?

                        • barsoap@lemm.ee
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          You realise that Crimea is larger than Sevastopol and Donetsk and Luhansk are not on Crimea?

                          Also, that "US supported Nazi coup" is 100% Russian propaganda not backed by anything but fantasy?

                            • barsoap@lemm.ee
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              Nah it shows that the US had opinions on Ukraine. US emissaries also tried to convince protestors to enter negotiations and compromise with Yanukovich and they were having none of that.

                              US emissaries and the Rada coming to the same conclusion when it comes to who is a good interim whatever isn't terribly surprising, you always pick prominent, well-respected, honourable, non-partisan middle of the road people for that kind of thing. People who can be trusted to organise proper elections and not fuck shit up in the meantime.

                              • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]
                                ·
                                1 year ago

                                you always pick prominent, well-respected, honourable, non-partisan middle of the road people for that kind of thing. People who can be trusted to organise proper elections and not fuck shit up in the meantime.

                                Is this a joke? The US sidelined the main opposition forces who wanted to stay on good terms with both Russia and the US in favor of literal nazis. The new president was the leader of the "fatherland party" until he splintered it off into an even more conservative group which had a military council of nazi paramilitary leaders and was basically generically called "national socialist party"

                                • barsoap@lemm.ee
                                  ·
                                  1 year ago

                                  Turchynov? You can say a lot of things about him especially that he's conservative, but not that he wouldn't be a democrat. But who was interim wasn't important in the first place as then there were elections.

                                  Those were won by Poroshenko who was rather heavy-handed in the east, also socially conservative, which made people (for one or both of those reasons) vote for Zelensky -- an ethnic Russian, running on a "let's try to be friends" platform, but not one of those "let's just bend over for Russia and let the Kremlin rule the country" people, either.

                                  Those are all descisions of the Ukrainian electorate. To imply that that was all the US reeks of conspiratorial American exceptionalism. Believe it or not things happen without the CIA having their dirty fingers in it.

                                  • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]
                                    ·
                                    1 year ago

                                    Sorry. The prime Minister was the nazi, I forget that ukraine has both.

                                    But generally yes the people that nuland and pyatt installed ruined contrary to ukrainian interests. Neutrality was how they avoided war. Things leaned too far to Russia, that caused a coup that led to an anti-russia government which led to the war.

                  • ElChapoDeChapo [he/him, comrade/them]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Ever wonder why they impeached him over some bullshit most people didn't give a fuck about in a country most people didn't know existed at the time instead of the mountains of evidence of his predatory behavior?

                    didnt-kill-himself

                    • barsoap@lemm.ee
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      No. Yanks impeached a President over a blowjob, that is, any- and everything.

              • Blursty@lemmy.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                Nobody said there was a genocide as far as I know, but there were many ethnic cleansing attempts.

                On the contrary calling Russia activities "genocide" was very common. Programmed morons.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    By a government that passed laws against using their language and that detonated bombs on them

                    • barsoap@lemm.ee
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      No such law was ever passed. You might be missing some details such as the Ukrainian army largely operating in Russian.

                      • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-language-law-russian/31656441.html

                        Note that I'm using an explicitly western funded propaganda vehicle for my citation. I didn't have to do that. I did it purposefully to clown on you.

                        Shut the fuck up. You just took a factual stand on a topic you did no research on. Your opinion is of no value. Stop sharing it.

                        • barsoap@lemm.ee
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          And that law forbids people from speaking Russian... how?

                          Ukraine is in full compliance with the ECRML. Russia isn't even a signatory.

                          • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            1 year ago

                            And that law forbids people from speaking Russian... how?

                            Love how liberals act really fucking smart 99% of the time and suddenly get really fucking stupid as soon as their shit is called on.

                            How about a friendly game of whataboutism? What about if the US right wing succeeded in making English the official language of the United States? What would happen to all the people who speak Spanish primarily?

                            (Psst... are we not talking about the killings then? All the pogroms and murders sure seem to have gotten left on the wayside of this conversation.)

                            • barsoap@lemm.ee
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              1 year ago

                              If the US introduced that law then anyone who were to print a Spanish publication would also have to print it in English.

                              Which sounds strange but then you have to consider that Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language since Catherine the Great. Ukrainian was actually outlawed. Present-day Ukrainian is simply making sure that Ukraine is the lingua franca of Ukraine and is, as said, in full compliance with the ECRML. Which the US doesn't ratify either btw and it won't because then suddenly they'd have to stop eradicating native languages.

                              • SoyViking [he/him]
                                ·
                                1 year ago

                                Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language since Catherine the Great

                                Even if that was true and not some harebrained ahistorical overgeneralisation what does that have to do with how the Ukrainian state treats it's Russian-speaking population? We are talking about an Ukrainian law, imposed by the Ukrainian state on Ukrainian citizens living on Ukrainian-controlled territory. How is trying to eradicate the Russian language in Ukraine preventing the alleged Russian policy of eradicating the Ukrainian language in Russia? How does one wrong justify another?

                                Ukrainian has been an official minority language of the Russian Federation since the breakup of the USSR and schools in Russia's new territories are teaching an Ukrainian-language curriculum to students whose families so desires. There's probably plenty of bad things to say about the Russian education system but giving a language you are hellbent on eradicating official status and teaching it at schools seems like an odd thing to do.

                          • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                            ·
                            1 year ago

                            This ECRML?

                            The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML) is a European treaty (CETS 148) adopted in 1992 under the auspices of the Council of Europe

                            Huh, wonder what the Council of Europe thinks of Ukraine's language law:

                            The Venice Commission, the Council of Europe’s top advisory body on constitutional matters, said that several of the law’s articles, including article 25, “failed to strike a fair balance” between promoting the Ukrainian language and safeguarding minorities’ linguistic rights.

                            You have no clue what you're talking about. Maybe sit down and listen a little?

                            • barsoap@lemm.ee
                              ·
                              1 year ago

                              You hexbears were the ones starting this whole thing with "They outlawed speaking Russian", not knowing WTF you were talking about, easily disproved by looking anywhere but at Russian propaganda. It's not my responsibility to educate you in more than quips.

                                • barsoap@lemm.ee
                                  ·
                                  1 year ago

                                  Bought or individually manipulated small content creators, in other words, astroturf. Believe it or not the FSB actually arrived in the 21st century and they know that the likes of RT are too on the nose to have wide-spread impact.

                                  Also, targeted media amplification, like that Maersheimer video which suddenly went viral (and, ironically, was then amplified by, of all people, tankies. Must not have gotten the party memo that (rightly) decried geostrategic realism as imperialist apologia)

                                  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    1 year ago

                                    You're saying that small astroturfed internet personalities are the Russian Federation's primary means of legitmizing it's interests in the public eye? Bigger than oligarch-owned news station and media empires?

                                    Can you name some of these bought or individually manipulated small content creators?

                                    • barsoap@lemm.ee
                                      ·
                                      1 year ago

                                      Bigger than oligarch-owned news station and media empires?

                                      First off, you said "common", and yes there's definitely more of those than big media empires. Secondly, when it comes to impact, yes, I'd also say that they're having a relatively larger impact. RT can't even operate over here the institutional stooge of Russia over here is the AfD. To a lesser degree, Die Linke but they managed to deadlock themselves into arcane pseudo-pacifism, "Oh Ukraine should be helped but we shouldn't send weapons because we're Germany", the ultimate old guard new guard compromise.

                                      Can you name some of these bought or individually manipulated small content creators?

                                      It's kinda hard I don't want to say names because a lot of them might also be useful idiots. Like at least half of the tankiesphere on youtube, I have no way to tell whether Hasan has been groomed by Russia or is simply being an idiot on his own accord. If you look at the post history of random accounts commenting with Russian lines on youtube they very much look like bots.

                                      Another rather more prominent example would be Elon Musk. He's definitely been worked over by Russia. Merely getting cold feet over starlink is one thing, suddenly using language such as "Lenin's mistake" in relation to Ukraine is a dead give away of direct exposure to Russian brainwashing. As to the rest of the platforms I wouldn't really know I don't frequent those.

                                      The pattern of influencing is well-documented, though. There's a reason that "Russian bot farm" is a term (one of the first things that Ukraine blew up in Moscow, btw).

                  • Blursty@lemmy.ml
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    By a Ukrainian Nazi army. Are you not aware of this? This is basic stuff you need to know before commenting.

                • Project_Straylight@lemmy.villa-straylight.social
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  "You and I know what is happening in Donbass," referring to the conflict zone in the east of the country, adding that: "It certainly looks like genocide."

                  Putin has previously made similar comparisons about the war in eastern Ukraine including in 2015 and 2019.

              • SexMachineStalin [comrade/them]
                ·
                1 year ago

                the supposed genocide in Donbas is 100% a Russian propaganda fabrication

                :PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS:

              • Gelamzer
                ·
                edit-2
                11 months ago

                deleted by creator

    • RangerAndTheCat@startrek.website
      ·
      1 year ago

      They’re tired and weary from the onslaught of war fringe to safe their country from Putins aggression. Any dig at their progress is a dig at morale that spreads not only through the ranks, but also to the general public. There is a time for constructive criticism, but that should be done in private with actual solutions offered by those criticizing. I understand their needs to be some decorum but you can’t blame them for what I would consider a mild retort as their countrymen die trying to retake their land everyday.

      • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yeah, but like, they are their worst countrymen. Nazis and such. No one in the war stands to win anything. They will still pay their landlords and the corrupt banks for the right to live in now freshly burned down houses. Wages will stay super low, the wartime reduction becoming a reconstruction reduction whenever it ends. Anyone from Ukraine who is able to escape the nazis ought to defect to Russia where they would be taken care of a little better.

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yeah, but like, they are their worst countrymen. Nazis and such.

          Regular people are being drafted, it's not just Nazis dying.

        • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
          ·
          1 year ago

          Hopping from a nation which employs fascist militia to a fascist-governed one isn't a solution to anything. All fascists involved suck shit but sheesh, let's not hope for a worse outcome

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
              ·
              1 year ago

              Like the Baltics post fall of the Soviet Union: Beeline for EU membership. Also Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to let go of Belgorod in exchange for NATO membership.

              • dolphin
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                deleted by creator

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  And I was parroting it.

                  But I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine at some point occupies some fields somewhere just to make sure that whoever's going to be in power after Putin will be disposed is going to sit down and talk reparations etc.

                  • Catradora_Stalinism [she/her, comrade/them]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    But I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine at some point occupies some fields somewhere just to make sure that whoever's going to be in power after Putin will be disposed is going to sit down and talk reparations etc.

                    what kind of drugs are you on

                  • Egon
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    3 months ago

                    deleted by creator

              • Blursty@lemmy.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                They can fuck off. Europeans are already paying through the nose for America's terrorist attack on our infrastructure. Paying for America's latest war is not going to happen.

          • duderium [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            Hopping from a nation which employs fascist militia to a fascist-governed one isn't a solution to anything. All fascists involved suck shit but sheesh, let's not hope for a worse outcome

            Hopping from a country in which Nazism is official policy to one in which Nazism is outlawed. It really is exactly the same, which is why the people who say this always make excuses for Ukraine and the fascist dictatorship masquerading as democracy which is the USA.

              • duderium [he/him]
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                There’s a recent story about Russia’s rehabilitation of Nazism law here:

                https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65024254

                It was implemented years ago, at which time the American corporate press did quite a lot of hand-wringing over protecting Nazis’ right to openly plan the extermination of Jews like me. When your own media sources are defending Nazism, maybe it’s time for a little self-examination and reflection?

                  • duderium [he/him]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    I'm not an Orlov expert, but it sounds to me like he's aligning with the West, which means aligning with Nazis. My point is that there is a law in Russia which says that you cannot rehabilitate Nazism. Though this law and its enforcement is imperfect, it is significant that such a law even exists, since we know that something like this could never exist in Ukraine or in the USA, since Nazism is so profoundly pervasive in these places.

      • Annakah69 [she/her]
        ·
        1 year ago

        It's not about decorum, it's about the pointless deaths of hundreds of thousands.

        Not trying to hate, but you narrowed in on excusing Ukraine for saying a mean thing to the West and its supporters. Reexamine your priorities.