Oh no, my miserable life that’s devoid of any connection and anyone altogether otherwise *at least contains a friend.
What the fuck man, is this a real concern average people have that I’m way too fucking alienated to understand
And yet pretty much everyone I became platonic with I develop a crush on / slightly fall for if they remain cool.
As I said, the "friend zone" as a concept is generally a cognitohazard. Having romantic interest turned down hurts, yes, but anticipating "friendzoning" and seeing it as some antagonistic experience that must result in a complete cutting off of the other person just raises the antagonism in the dating pool that much more.
It fucking sucks that so few cishet men are willing to try an actual nonromantic friendship with a cishet woman and I think normalizing the idea of "if no sex, then disappear" just makes that worse.
Growing up gay, I would have done anything if it meant the maximum consequence for confessing my feelings to someone who wasn’t interested was a “no”. Usually the best I could expect was a reaction so out the fucking wazoo, it’s as if I had shot their grandma to death in front of them. Worst case would be my brain becoming a plaything for a med student by next morning.
I’ve got a feeling that if I’d reacted the same way to a straight lady asking me out, society would suddenly become enlightened as to the proper way to behave.
but I don’t think forcing people’s emotions to conform to what you want is an effective or stable way to fight misogyny
Neither is normalizing the idea of resenting the other person's emotions that doesn't mutually share in those emotions.
I have trouble telling between my crushes and squishes sometimes, so I just choose to label the feelings based on whether the two of us feel like getting naughty. If we're not doing naughty stuff together then it's a squish, and I choose to be happy to be spending platonic time with them
It's a persistent feeling of platonic attraction towards a person. The platonic equivalent of a crush.
Haven't you ever had a friend that you were excited and happy to spend time with in the initial stages of the relationship? One who gave you butterflies in your stomach, but who you didn't want to date?
People say this, but let's be honest the "friend zone" is something most people experience, it just go cringe to use because of the way incels use it. Having romantic feelings for someone while trying to have a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate. The issue is people getting an immature victimhood complex about it.
Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this. It's kind of funny how some leftists will talk about context when it comes to the faults of former AES states but on other issues (especially ones like this, i.e. dating) they completely ignore context and sound like your average lib. Oh well I guess we all have to continue to grow.
Also if it something you can't handle, better off just avoiding the person and trying to move on. Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I mean it works out for some people I suppose (for ex UlyssessT in this thread) but yeah I think remaining friends while still holding out hope is disingenuous.
I mean, I don't think it's a "legitimate issue" in the sense that it's something society needs to deal it, it's an interpersonal thing that sucks but that individuals need to deal with in the best way they can.
I think it's both. Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be "dealt with" on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be "dealt with" on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Probably making it so boys and men have emotional support other than their partner or therapist and generally teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities. Unfortunately, that probably has to start young and we already have a bunch of shitty men floating around
relationships as status signifiers
ugh well put & good post.
One of the examples I remember is from r4r or one of the nerd dating spheres where someone wanted a partner who was smart, but not as smart as them. Obviously, they wanted her to smart enough to impress their friends (the ones who they constantly jockey for clout about intelligence with), but didn't really want to respect her or feel intellectually threatened. Which also says a lot about what they think of their friends, let alone their prospective partner they were looking for.
Yet again, something that can quickly and easily fixed by breaking down the umbrella concept of "smart" into categories, where you can have distinction in one or a few or even several, and still easily have space for someone else close to you to have their own combination/niche.
The same goes with power/authority. Break it down into its component parts, and all of a sudden stratification is drastically minimized.
teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities.
Well the problem is that relationships aren't status signifiers. They are status, in the most concrete way possible.
Edit: Like it's an old truism, that certain kinds of guys will deliberately pursue making money more than actually trying to build their social skills directly because it can open more doors for you socially & "romantically".
Edit 2: What I'm getting at here is that "status" is an inherently social concept. It has to do with the people who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, & what you can expect from your interactions with them. In this sense, yes, somebody who doesn't have a lot of friends or any romantic partners, is objectively socially inferior to somebody who does. They are, by definition, valued less by the the people around them & are less socially integrated, as a consequence of that. And that itself will usually be the consequence of the person in question possessing some quality that is considered inferior by the society they live in.
The whole issue I think is something that just isn't really well addressed by any contemporary discussion on the matter, I think.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Maybe reverse the trend of turning dating into a commodified market for one. Apps like Tinder have really made looks be the sole factor in whether you even want to talk to someone. It's become so gamified that we essentially treat potential partners as some kind of stock investment. Also the digital world has really isolated us and we rarely even talk to people anymore except through text or instagram. I think electronic communication is great (I mean here I am commenting on hexbear) but not at the expense of real life contact (hence the "touch grass" meme). Maybe have community centers that actually appeal to people? I dunno, perhaps we need to look at what the Soviets and other cultures do to help people meet each other (https://youtu.be/teZw4-trPuE?feature=shared).
I actually agree with most of the above while at the same time I see the "being friends with someone that is otherwise not romantically interested is bad/impossible" take as being the equivalent of throwing dirt into the rejection wound. Maybe a friendship is impossible for an individual but systemically assuming it is only makes the dating scene a little bit worse by making it more antagonistic.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
IMO, I think it's worthwhile for society to take an active interest in helping integrate kids & young people who are lagging behind socially. There are programs that claim to try to do this today, but I didn't really ever get any help, I just got told what to do & that I'd go in a windowless box if I didn't do that.
If you get to be 30 & you're still in that position, like I am idk how much there is that can be done, because a lot of the contributing factors to the issue have become ossified/terminal.
Socialization is very much a "rich get richer, poor get poorer" (if you'll excuse the analogy) situation, in my experience.
I think remaining friends while still holding out hope
I agree here specifically because the "holding out hope" part is, both for the friendship and for the person maintaining that hope instead of accepting the friendship, or moving on without the friendship if they can't, which is also preferable to "holding out hope."
Accept the friendship if you can, earnestly work toward accepting the friendship if you're not all the way there, or move on. Those are the best choices.
Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I agree with everything you said, except this one here, every functioning long term relationship (and i mean decades long term) i saw in my life was evolved from this. Platonic friends are better at solving their problems in general, way better than people who came together cause they wanted to fuck each other.
While I have indeed been 'friend zone'd, I've had more than three platonic friendships turn into romantic relationships in my lifetime, which is the majority of my actual relationships. Obviously don't rely on it, maybe the key was that I went into all those friendships fully accepting that we might only ever be friends and that was fine.
It depends how long the platonic relationship has been. If it only been a few weeks or even months if you don't see each other often, moving over to a romantic relationship can go really well. If you're trying to turn a years long platonic relationship into a romantic one, yeah in most cases that I'd a fools errand.
[Medium: Failure] — "The friend-zone" is the single worst place any wöman could dare to put you in. It's where you're sent when — for some unknown, female reason — she doesn't value you as a potential mate. That she values someone with better mate qualities than you. That's what the friend-zone is; it's wöman's way of saying "fuck you".
— It's really that bad? — Of course, bröther. The gynocentrists want you to think it's fine. Break your conditioning. Keep pushing. Your persistence will prove how much you deserve her.On the converse, I tried to take a relationship with a close friend to the next level.
It did not go well and we do not talk anymore
red_stapler
corgiwithalaptoplosing a friend trying to break the volcel oath
Yeah see, even if I was deeply interested in a romantic relationship with that person, I’d never take it to the next level and stay within boundaries out of fear of not losing them.
Is that conceited?
Nah, it just seems like a defense mechanism I guess. As @red_stapler@hexbear.net, we learned our lessons.
Wish I had thought like you did at the time. Oh well. Maybe in another life.
Were you initially attracted romantically from the beginning?
Did you secretly like them or did you admit it? And did they secretly know or only know after you admitted it?
I don't know if they knew before I told them, but I did explicitly tell them.
Ambiguity over definitions is the lifeblood of struggle sessions
emotionally ambiguous attraction
It's kind of unfair to assume the person who said they aren't romantically interested is being "ambiguously attracted."
Then that's also ambiguous and doesn't really do the concept/meme of "friendzone" as a bad thing many favors.
Did some one say.... extreme?
I don't buy the misogyny arguments here. I remember being a teenager, and that shit feels desperate. Everybody else is hooked up and they seem so happy, and you've found someone you feel like you can really connect with, but they don't feel the same. So you've made a big deal of it in your mind and when they say "I think of you more as a friend", it feels like a full-on breakup.
Of course, you still have to get over it, just like a breakup. Learning to deal with that stuff is part of growing up.
Even as an adult, couples tend to hang out with other couples, and it can be challenging to be the single person in a group.
I know some people go too far, wallowing in self-pity over being friendzoned, and it can poison a person. Maybe it seems silly from the outside, and you think they should just get over it, but I think people deserve empathy and support as much as possible. Ideally we can help people work through their shit and not let this little blip in their lives come to define them.
Okay I'm done rambling. Thanks for reading.
What part of "you've found someone you feel like you can really connect with" excludes being friends or queerplatonic partners with that person? Ideally all your friendships should have a deep feeling of personal connection and love.
While I agree principally, I think a good percentage of people in the world reserve that kind of intimacy for their romantic partner, or select one or two long-term friends already in their life. So if they're unwilling to have a romance, I think the odds are very small that a deep personal connection will then bloom.
So then we're back at the issue that people hate being friendzoned because they refuse to value friendships
I think people hate being friendzoned because others' ideas of 'friendships' likely doesn't match include the level of personal connection they want. It would be cool if everyone was willing and able to have deep personal connections with their friends, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it. I don't think reserving deep intimacy for a specific few people is the same as 'refusing to value friendships'.
It's a fair way to live one's life, but it will mean it's not unreasonable for other people to be disappointed when told they can't establish in that deeper connection.
I think you summed up my thoughts on this better than I could ever articulate. It’s like it’s become a thing now to take any negative feelings about romantic or sexual rejection and ascribe to it the label “incel” just because some / many people deal with that rejection in unhealthy ways.
I found myself in the friend zone lots of times in my single days. It sucks and it hurt. But I didn’t go online and whinge about it or say all women are bad or whatever or let it mutate into anti-social behaviors. I maybe felt down for a bit and then moved on, nbd. That’s how I bet most people deal with it.
Maybe it seems silly from the outside, and you think they should just get over it, but I think people deserve empathy and support as much as possible. Ideally we can help people work through their shit and not let this little blip in their lives come to define them.
Yeah it definitely is a shitty feeling, and those that try to convince you it's not are honestly trying to gaslight you (whether intentionally or not).
I mean, having romantic feelings for someone who doesn’t feel the same is a bummer. Like, you should get over it because obsessing over that is teenager shit. But it’s still a bummer.
I grow to dislike the concept. Notice how it focuses only on the one who wants to pursue a sexual/romantic relationship, as if platonic relationship is somehow lesser. Why don't we ever hear about the "sexual zone" or "romantic zone" about people who desire a deep platonic relationship with someone but who are placed in the "sexual/romantic zone" by that someone? It hurts to be previously friends with someone who gives you the cold shoulder once they find out you don't want to fuck them. Why should the sexual zoned person's feelings perspective and feelings be cast aside for the friend zoned person's feelings and perspective?
It hurts to be previously friends with someone who gives you the cold shoulder once they find out you don't want to fuck them.
I guess in that case there was never really a friendship to begin with.
There was one parody Tumblr post about being put in the "girlfriend zone".
Why don't we ever hear about the "sexual zone" or "romantic zone" about people who desire a deep platonic relationship with someone but who are placed in the "sexual/romantic zone" by that someone?
I think the kids are calling this a "situationship" these days.
A "situationship" is an ambiguous dating relationship where one person maybe wants to get serious and the other doesn't want to talk about it. Risk factors include "short-term open to long" in tinder bio
Socialism is when you take an archetypical trope, (unrequited love), common to every time and culture, and dismiss it w/ performative, incredibly hamfisted, body-and-spaces discourse (whiteness, toxic masculinity).
the idea of the friend zone is definitely not just good old unrequited love. the unspoken implication is that women only like "bad guys" and thus you should never be nice to women, lest you end up in the friend zone
Socialism is when you ignore the fact that tropes can play out in many different ways and that particular manifestations of it can in fact reflect broader social issues
This feels contrarian for the sake of it. Being in a limbo with someone you have feelings for is understandably uncomfortable for anyone. I honestly think dunking on someone for this just kind of shows emotional immaturity
I view it more as dunking on the particular type of dweeb that starts an obnoxious screed about how women only want to date assholes and that they don't ever look at the nice guys in their lives and wonder why their lives suck.
definitely think if you care and talk about the 'friendzone' as a concept it raises red flags about how one approaches romance, but there's nothing inherently wrong with someone feeling unhappy that their romantic feelings were unreciprocated. like with most things when it comes to this subject i think the issue is thinking critically about why you feel a certain way - for a lot of people the sting of rejection comes from feeling entitled to romance which is clearly problematic.
I do have a friend who does only date assholes, it's very sad and she says so. They have done things like break her arm, break into her house after they'd broken up and steal all of her knives etc. It's actually a repeated pattern in her relationships that strikes me as pathological.
That said, the incel/"nice guy" vibe is defining asshole as "someone who is more confident than me".
I do have a friend who does only date assholes, it's very sad and she says so. They have done things like break her arm, break into her house after they'd broken up and steal all of her knives etc. It's actually a repeated pattern in her relationships that strikes me as pathological.
Yeah that's the thing, you don't have to give into the incel mindset to notice this kind pattern.
That said, the incel/"nice guy" vibe is defining asshole as "someone who is more confident than me".
Yeah, although I do think that the "asshole" and the "nice guy" are two sides of the same coin (both toxic but in different ways; one more overt and the other covert). Actual confident/good guys often get mistaken as "assholes" simply cuz they have the confidence, like you said.
A few weeks ago I met a system and was thinking about the possibility of a relationship with them, but they said they were taken so I was friendzoned. A few days ago they said they were willing to try polyamory again and want to date me and join my swarm, but one of their members has some creepy incel behaviours and I want to deprogram the alt right shit in his head before I get too close to him, so I friendzoned them.
Being friendzoned didn't suck and friendzoning them didn't suck. We're simply not in a place where a relationship would be healthy right now, even though we've quickly become close friends. It doesn't suck because I know how to communicate and set clear boundaries from both sides.
I think this "wah I'm in the friendzone" shit comes from straight men who never learned how to be honest with their feelings and others. Honestly, that kind of behaviour is why I'm not dating my friend. If these men spent more time learning about feelings, maybe they wouldn't be friendzoned in the first place.
EDIT: oh and obviously being monoamorous is a big source of angst for straight people, but that's their own fault too.
A few weeks ago I met a system and was thinking about the possibility of a relationship with them, but they said they were taken so I was friendzoned. A few days ago they said they were willing to try polyamory again and want to date me and join my swarm, but one of their members has some creepy incel behaviours and I want to deprogram the alt right shit in his head before I get too close to him, so I friendzoned them.
This is entirely illegible to me, lmao.
Well, it was only the very beginnings of a crush. I got to the answer quickly because I'm efficient.
I honestly think dunking on someone for this just kind of shows emotional immaturity
It's because they hate women and see them only as something to boost their social status. Like a house or car.
If they are friends with a woman with no prospect of fucking, in their minds that makes them of lesser status.
It's all misogynist pop psychology bullshit.
Yeah, agreed about the misogyny.
Also, as I think about it, what if it partially stems from people politely rejecting others, after a date, by telling them they just want to be friends when they don’t actually mean it?
I’ve had that shit happen to before and it kind of blows. Went on a date with a cool, attractive girl in a new city where I didn’t know anyone, and she let me know afterwards that she thinks I’m cool but just wants to be friends. I was like ‘fuck yeah, I don’t give a shit’ but we never spoke after that :( Don’t say it if you don’t mean it, but then again maybe I should have put in more effort into staying in contact with her.
What if it partially stems from people politely rejecting others, after a date, by telling them they just want to be friends when they don’t actually mean it?
Unfortunately, that can happen, but keep in mind that rejecting men is often very dangerous for women and they have to be very careful not to seem unfriendly. It's probably not personal or intentionally cruel, but rather an automatic defense mechanism.
Unfortunately, that can happen, but keep in mind that rejecting men is often very dangerous for women and they have to be very careful not to seem unfriendly.
That's a factor that people in this thread that are going "won't someone think of the friendzoned men and their unique and unfathomable pain" either don't see or refuse to see.
extreme horniness + emotional immaturity + unaddressed misogyny + a feeling of entitlement to sex + romantic rejection = upset about being "friendzoned"it happens to a lot of folks, and no doubt it hurts like hell, but once they see the ingredients, they realize the problem and they can choose to grow... or get worse.
Damn if all the romantic poets, pining away for unrequited love, simply realized they were only misogynists. Lol.
Quite a few entertainers and musicians in history were arguably misogynistic under a closer analysis and their fame doesn't really excuse or justify that. "Lol."
If the romantic poets were complaining bitterly about how they've been wronged by women because they don't want to date them then yeah maybe they were
For me the way I see it as a guy, being friends with someone, while secretly or not so secretly holding out for something more romantically and/or sexually, is just disingenuous. It also comes across as really needy, desperate behaviour. Which, in my personal experience, is the biggest turn off for women. So you're not going to change their mind this way. The true motivations behind the "friendship" are extremely transparent and plain for everyone else to see. People can tell what's going on, you know what you're doing, the woman knows, all your mutual friends know on some level. There's a reason "orbiters" get made fun of constantly for orbiting a specific woman.
If you still want to be friends with the person you have a crush on after being rejected or realising that it can't happen for whatever reason, you're going to have to fully accept that they don't see you in that way. Then the friendship is longer based off of the idea that you can have a relationship. Failure to accept that will doom any future friendship for the reasons I've listed above. If you cant accept that, it's probably better to have less contact with the person or even stop seeing them, instead of going though the motions in some "friendship" which is built off of the idea/fantasy that you'll eventually date them.
Yea, this is 100% it. If you can't kill your romantic feelings for them friendship is just not going to work. You'll just be hurting the whole time you're with them, especially if they get involved with someone else and like you said it can definitely stray into creepy behavior. It's a shitty situation for both parties and of course it'd be great if we could just switch those feelings off but that's not always an easy thing to do.
I mean, if I'm romantically interested in someone and they say that they're not romantically interested in me, that sucks.
Emotions are not rational. I can cognitively know "I am not entitled to this person's romantic interest and having them in my life as a friend is just as valuable as being in a romantic relationship with them" but my emotions will still feel disappointed and saddened because my romantic feelings aren't being reciprocated. Confessing your feelings to someone is also a huge moment of emotional vulnerability, and being rejected in that situation can make one feel powerless and inadequate.
Are you gonna tell me that if you confess your feelings to someone and they give you the whole "Let's just be friends" response, your reaction is "Oh yay, I made a friend"?
What the fuck man, is this a real concern average people have that I’m way too fucking alienated to understand
Yes it is a real concern. And honestly, I think leftists are terrible at giving dating advice, especially when it comes to men. There are some considerate leftists that actually give concrete advice (like start exercising, find clothes that fit better, maybe trim the beard so it looks nice, get a good haircut or shave it completely if balding, try to look people in the eye instead of looking down all the time, learn small talk, learn banter, learn how to express romantic interest, find that difference between confident and creepy and know when you've crossed it, etc.) Most of the "advice" I see is just "don't be a r!pist!" and "don't harass women!" Like bro that's obvious, but to the guy that's constantly getting rejected, especially when apps like Tinder make it so the a few super good looking guys pretty much clean house (and this dynamic absolutely spills over into offline interactions), there needs to be better advice.
When this advice is lacking, or people dismiss these young men because "there are so many other problems why would I care about MEN!", this can lead to alienated young men finding their way into reactionary spaces. In this case a little prevention is worth ten tons of cure.
And lastly, I'll say this, it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist. Unless your feelings magically also changed to platonic ones, then there's a relational imbalance that will always linger. It's better to just say "hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it's better that we don't hang out."
it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned
This kind of pre-emptive antagonism between people in the dating pool only makes it gradually more antagonistic over time.
It's already rare enough for cishet men to have nonromantic friendships with cishet women; making it more antagonistic over time by normalizing fear and anger about "friendzoning" only makes that a little worse for everyone as time goes on.
I expanded on what I meant in the rest of the sentence (since you only quoted part of it and not the whole).
It's already rare enough for cishet men to have nonromantic friendships with cishet women; making it more antagonistic over time by normalizing fear and anger about "friendzoning" only makes that a little worse for everyone as time goes on.
Yeah I agree that the fear and anger shouldn't be normalized, but we should also normalize being open about our feelings and not suppressing them and remaining "friends" while still holding hope that it will become something more (which I also think can be super dangerous). I expanded on that in a reply to someone else if you wanna see it.
but we should also normalize being open about our feelings and not suppressing them
No arguments from me here.
remaining "friends"
This is still possible, and I have done it, no scare quotes needed.
while still holding hope that it will become something more
Now this is the toxic part that fucks it all up and makes the friendship impossible if it's held that way.
It really is possible to be attracted to someone and accept that the other person isn't attracted back and still be nonromantic friends. I have done it, and I still have those friendships many years later.
It really is possible to be attracted to someone and accept that the other person isn't attracted back and still be nonromantic friends. I have done it, and I still have those friendships many years later.
So I think that there needs to be more advice on how to do this, as I've rarely encountered someone who's successfully navigated it as you have. Maybe a separate post on how to do it? But anyways, should people want to pursue that option, I think it's something that the individual needs to assess based on the strength of their feelings. If they are not emotionally ready for this kind of change (and from what I've seen a lot, maybe most, cis-straight men aren't), then I think not seeing the person anymore might be the better option. Otherwise if they really want to try to make a friendship work (and actually try to be friends and not try to "get in" later) then I guess your advice would be helpful.
So I think that there needs to be more advice on how to do this
There's an entire field of therapy and self-help that covers this, called radical acceptance. It isn't something that can instantly be picked up as much as something that is practiced and improved upon. Accepting the reality that the other person is not romantically/sexually interested and accepting that one's own romantic/sexual tensions will not be fulfilled to that person leads to a release of tension and the growth and flourishing of other positive emotional experiences that can then happen with that person. They won't become romantic/sexual, and by that point, it won't matter to you.
There's entire libraries worth of books on the subject, and I assume a browse of the highest rated ones is a place to start. Therapists also offer basic training courses for how to observe one's lived reality in the moment, how the body feels, how the mind feels, being instead of doing so to speak.
If it is too much for someone to be friends with someone after a romantic/sexual offer is turned down, so be it, but being honest and forward about how that feels is the best thing to do no matter what happens next. The worst choice is to try to remain "friends" while hoping for some kind of romantic/sex opportunity later.
it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned
Retort: no it's not. Try being a normal person.
it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned
Retort: no it's not. Try being a normal person.
Did you read the rest of the sentence, or the paragraph? Or are you just knee-jerk reacting to a part of what I said? Honest question.
Did you read the rest of the sentence, or the paragraph? Or are you just knee-jerk reacting to a part of what I said? Honest question.
It's the latter, unfortunate part of hexbear's culture being so focused on dunking. I've been flamed for comments that get widespread support a few weeks later. Whether or not most people disagree is entirely based on the vibes of the post for minor issues.
I've been flamed for comments that get widespread support a few weeks later.
Looks like that happened in this very thread lol. I see comments now that basically mirror what I said earlier in the thread's history.
And lastly, I'll say this, it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist
Disagree. It's not hard to turn a crush into a squish. I know 2000s era TV made it seem like it's impossible to be friends with someone you love without acting like a creep, but that's just not true. Just have a little honesty. "I find you romantically attractive but I also value your friendship."
Yeah people I've friendzoned have secretly introjected me and pursued a relationship with the introject in the past, but that's called being a creep, it's not called having feelings.
So I must be out of the loop here, what's a squish? What's introjecting? Never heard of those terms before
A squish is a persistent feeling of platonic attraction to someone. It's the platonic equivalent of a crush. When I'm around someone I have a squish on, I'm excited and happy to be near them. With time and familiarity, these feelings usually fade and get replaced with platonic love, which is the foundation of a good friendship.
Introjection is when a system creates a member with an identity based on an external source. These sources are usually fictional characters, which results in system members called fictives, but there are also factives, which are members based on a factional source. I friendzoned someone I was dating and they accidentally introjected me some time after. They decided to keep the introject a secret and do romantic activities with it, which was very gross for me. Factive introjection can often be a problem with no easy answers, but the least that can be done is a little honesty.
A squish is a persistent feeling of platonic attraction to someone. It's the platonic equivalent of a crush. When I'm around someone I have a squish on, I'm excited and happy to be near them. With time and familiarity, these feelings usually fade and get replaced with platonic love, which is the foundation of a good friendship.
Ah I see
Introjection is when a system creates a member with an identity based on an external source. These sources are usually fictional characters, which results in system members called fictives, but there are also factives, which are members based on a factional source.
Ok I'm completely lost here. I don't know what a system is. And I take it factional source is a real source, as opposed to fiction?
A system is a brain with multiple people in it. And yeah, a factional source is one that actually exists. I wouldn't say "real", because I don't identify as real and my introject was still a factive. There's a difference between what exists and what's real.
A system is a brain with multiple people in it.
So like multiple personality?
Dissociative Identity Disorder used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder, but it was renamed to focus on the symptoms that were actually harmful, because being plural isn't a sickness. Plurality can also arise from other disorders such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and it can also arise naturally or as the result of deliberate or accidental efforts. It's often linked with spiritual beliefs by people who experience it in a way which conflicts with normative reality's narratives. Leonard Nimoy famously has a Spock in his head who he sometimes talks with, because of all the years he spent playing Spock on TV. The brain adapts.
I agree with most of what you said, but I really don't see why you couldn't be friends with someone you had/have feelings for. You can keep stuff to yourself, and be okay with being friends. Obviously the crusher has to accept that going further isn't going to happen. You can logically know something, and behave accordingly, even if your feelings are different.
You can logically know something, and behave accordingly, even if your feelings are different.
I think that may sound good in theory, but in practice emotions really fuck with us. So if one is trying to assess how to best proceed, there needs to be an honest accounting on the strength and frequency of these feelings. It's almost like a calculated risk to be honest. You need to really know yourself. If you think you can do it then yeah good for you, but I think in our current environment it might just create more danger to the women because they may not know who is honestly trying to be friends and who is "just trying to get in" under the guise of friendship. Maybe this analogy isn't that good, but it's almost like job hunting, if you get rejected I suppose you can try to "follow up and keep trying" but it's better to move on (and I fully acknowledge that dating isn't transactional like a job but it still kind of is a "market" for lack of a better term).
I agree, it is difficult. And if the crushee didn't want to keep being friends, I could understand that. I'm also not saying people should feel like they have to be friends if they don't want to be, for whatever reason.
I think asking for a promotion would be a better analogy. You obviously (I say obviously but from what I've heard...) shouldn't keep asking for a date or a job interview. But remaining friends isn't nagging for a job interview. It's hoping things can stay the same. I've not gotten promoted before, but I don't think it'd be better to just quit. (as long as I can be okay in my current place).
You obviously (I say obviously but from what I've heard...) shouldn't keep asking for a date or a job interview.
Actually that reminds me of something slightly related. It always seems like back in the day guys would ask a girl out like ten times before she finally said yes. I always hear stories from older couples like "he asked me out 20 times before I said yes and we've been happily married for 60 years!" But nowadays persistence is seen as being creepy in dating, although it's kind of still promoted in sales, business, etc.
It always seems like back in the day guys would ask a girl out like ten times before she finally said yes. I always hear stories from older couples like "he asked me out 20 times before I said yes and we've been happily married for 60 years!"
If Pride and Prejudice, written in the 1800s, has anything to say about it, women back then found that pushy and obnoxious and sometimes gave into it but it wasn't seen as a desirable method. Mr. Collins does that to Ms. Bennet and one of the most famous speeches in the book is her reply criticizing that "normal" approach.
"I do assure you, sir, that I have no pretensions whatever to that kind of elegance which consists in tormenting a respectable man. I would rather be paid the compliment of being believed sincere. I thank you again and again for the honour you have done me in your proposals, but to accept them is absolutely impossible. My feelings in every respect forbid it. Can I speak plainer? Do not consider me now as an elegant female, intending to plague you, but as a rational creature, speaking the truth from her heart."
https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/pride/full-text/chapter-19/
And lastly, I'll say this, it's completely disingenuous to remain "friends" with someone after you've been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist. Unless your feelings magically also changed to platonic ones, then there's a relational imbalance that will always linger. It's better to just say "hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it's better that we don't hang out."
Interesting, can you expand on this and why you shouldn’t be friends with someone you’re attracted to? Like, do you think ‘platonic’ and ‘romantic’ are binary conditions?
I’m not aaying you’re wrong but I’m interested in why you think it’s strictly disingenuous. I completely agree with the rest of what you said btw
Because if you continue hanging out with that person, the feelings will always remain. Like I said, maybe they somehow changed, but honestly, will a guy (this example is hetero-cis obv) who was initially attracted to a girl and then told "hey let's just be friends" actually change his feelings? I mean they're feelings because we kind of can't control them. So the guy needs to be honest with himself and with the girl. Otherwise he's basically staying in there to "try and get in" at a later time. That's disingenuous. He's better off spending his time trying with someone else. Maybe in that case he can remain friends with the girl since he has other options.
Interesting, can you expand on this and why you shouldn’t be friends with someone you’re attracted to? Like, do you think ‘platonic’ and ‘romantic’ are binary conditions?
Not strictly but they are more cut and dry then people like to think. And it seems to be perceived differently along gender lines (at least for straight cis relationships). Check out this video and look at the responses: https://youtu.be/T_lh5fR4DMA?feature=shared.
Now whether these responses are socially conditioned or somehow "innate" is a debate I leave to the scientists and sociologists, but there is obviously a perceived difference. I mean just look up "friend zone" standup routines on youtube or anywhere really, people talk about it all the time (https://youtube.com/shorts/zbjMJBixZI8?feature=shared and https://youtu.be/_KE6Y3VrMg4?feature=shared). The truth is that there are many dudes basically remaining in "friendships" disingenuously in order to get with the girl. This is not only disingenuous, but if the guy harbors resentment on being only considered "a friend" then it can lead to violent outbursts later in the "friendship." So it's not only bad for the guys involved, but can be potentially life-threatening for the women. So like I said, it's better to admit how you feel and if you still have those feelings, it's probably better to maybe be aquiantances at best, but not friends (unless your feelings have actually changed, which I think represents a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of those who get friendzoned).
I've remained friends with people I was attracted to and that the other person knew I was attracted to, and those friendships have lasted for many years. It is possible. You don't speak for everyone.
You don't speak for everyone.
I know, and I never claimed to. That's great that it worked out for you, and I'm happy.
I in turn acknowledge that getting romantically rejected does hurt and that hurt is real.
I just don't want that hurt to further worsen the dating pool and the systemic antagonism between (often cishet) men and women where the former get caught up in the "friendzone" concept and sometimes harbor rage against the latter, rage that often makes those women more likely to "friendzone" others because the alternatives can involve violence during a date that goes sour and all they're trying to do is let the guy off easy, which yes isn't really a friendship but also over times makes nonromantic friendships that much rarer between those groups.
At one time I thought I’d try my hand at being a “leftist dating advice” person, just given my perspective as being now over 40 and in a long term relationship. But I’ve since come to the opinion that all generic dating advice is mostly pointless. Trying to understand what you are doing wrong (or right) in dating is just too specific to each individual person, IMO. We all just have too many blind spots when it comes to ourselves. Not to mention so much of getting dating right is “be like this but don’t go too far in the other direction either”.
I spent so much time and energy in my single days trying to read up on dating advice and try to figure out what I was doing wrong. But ultimately what I was going wrong was a few things that were hyper-specific to myself, and generic dating advice wouldn’t mention that or if it did, I didn’t realize it applied to me.
I guess if I had any dating advice, it would be to ignore generic dating advice and try and have people in your life (friends, family, even exes) who know you well and will be brutally honest with you. And you have to be brutally honest with yourself, or otherwise you will never be able to internalize what other people tell you.
That, and being with someone is also a leftist, sympathetic to your political views, or at least apolitical but cool if you want to do praxis or occasionally rant about stuff like how capitalism evolved out of feudalism is pretty dang important.
That, and being with someone is also a leftist, sympathetic to your political views, or at least apolitical but cool if you want to do praxis or occasionally rant about stuff like how capitalism evolved out of feudalism is pretty dang important.
So I'm kind of torn on this, because of how I keep hearing about romantic relationships causing orgs to basically implode. It's like there are so few leftists that when people meet in an org it becomes desperate people meeting other desperate people and basically forgetting the whole point of the org.
I guess if I had any dating advice, it would be to ignore generic dating advice and try and have people in your life (friends, family, even exes) who know you well and will be brutally honest with you.
I don't know, in my experience they'll never be brutally honest with you. Actually, they may not even know what to tell you in the first place and they may actually think that you're "a catch" so to speak and "who wouldn't want to date you!" I actually think hiring a dating coach might not be a bad idea, because they can assess you and actually give you good advice. And it would be specifically tailored to you.
Yeah I guess in my head, I was thinking specifically outside of leftist orgs you’re involved in. Can be pretty problematic if you value at all the work the org does. Honestly I think relationships with folks who aren’t leftist can work well so long as they’re broadly sympathetic to your views.
And I also agree that it’s hard for even friends or people close to you to figure out your issues. Not to mention there’s plenty of folks who don’t have friends like that in their lives. I like the idea of a dating coach. Also, I think if you work on being radically honest with yourself, you might be able to help yourself some. Like with myself, I think deep down I knew my problem was actually taking those first steps and taking chances, but I never wanted to admit it to myself.
I like the idea of a dating coach.
That's essentially what the PUAs from the 2000s were. It was only towards the end of the 2000s and the early 2010s that you started to see that stuff morph into the "manosphere" and "red pill" stuff you see today.
you think the pua's of the 2000s weren't misogynistic?
I'm sure there was some there but it was mostly just guys who had gotten rejected a lot trying to figure out how to be more confident, dress better, and learn how to talk to women. Later on people started to mix politics in with it (i.e. "women are only like this cuz of feminism, liberalism, etc.")
it was always creepy from the get go, you familiar with Neil Strauss? you might benefit from hearing about his experience. like this is not good.
Yeah I know who he is. He actually had trouble with women even though he had backstage passes as a writing for rolling stone magazine. It wasn't until after he learned the dating skills that he was able to be better with women.
Maybe a therapist? Not like, in an accusatory 'you need therapy' kind of way - I just mean they could fill much the same role as you describe a dating coach filling, while also helping you deal with some of the rejection sensitivity that is often at the root of dating anxiety.
I mean I guess, but... I hate to use this term, but I think the therapist is only going to give you "blue pill" advice like "be yourself" or other useless platitudes. Unless the therapist has themselves dealt with this and somehow conquered it, I highly doubt a therapist would help.
a good therapist, on seeing a person come in and say "I'm troubled by this problem", will see if the problem is fixable. If you're super stressed because you're working 60 hours a week, your therapist should say "stop working 60 hours a week, and here's some techniques to ease the symptoms while you figure out how to stop doing that".
Bad luck dating is only somewhat fixable, since you can't control the minds of others. So a good therapist should push you to get better at dating if that's what you want, but also help you to become happier being single. (Drifting off-topic, I think being happily single is a lot easier after you've dated a bit, and now have the self-confidence that comes from knowing you could get laid if you felt like it but don't want to. Which may be one reason why single women are generally happier than single men. I hope this doesn't come across as mean but I'm clocking you as a younger, relatively inexperienced dude?)
My current therapist encourages me to trip shrooms and explore Hegel because that is what works for me. If you find a good one then they will quickly realize the traditional line of advice isn't what you're looking for. That said, I've also seen my share of awful therapists so I understand your hesitancy.
Finally an actual good comment.
To my fellow guys, there is nothing more pathetic than being an "orbiter" that stays friends with a women in the vague hope that they change their minds and want a romantic relationship with you. Everyone can tell it's disingenuous. You know it, the woman knows it, her friends and your friends can tell. Trust me on this one. Either accept that she doesn't see you that way if you want to remain friends, and if you can't accept that, it's best to put some distance between you and the person.
To my fellow guys, there is nothing more pathetic than being an "orbiter" that stays friends with a women in the vague hope that they change their minds and want a romantic relationship with you.
It's better to just say "hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it's better that we don't hang out."
I guess I don't have any experience from the"friendzoned" side, but this feels kinda manipulative? You're basically giving them them an ultimatum to date you or cut off contact. I might just be sensitive or have completely different kind of relationship with my friends, but this would definitely burn bridges.
but this would definitely burn bridges.
I guess I should clarified that this is more of something you'd say in the beginning, not too long after meeting someone.
You're basically giving them them an ultimatum to date you or cut off contact.
I mean I see it more as you know who you are and are setting boundaries for yourself. If the other person insists on being friends while knowing that you are into them, I see that as kind of manipulative, because you're kind of pressuring the person with the feelings to make a decision to stay in an awkward situation.
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