https://twitter.com/Jaaavis/status/1327632164968681474
Lol there is zero chance he could win. VA is pure shitlib/neocon "moderate" territory
Then this could very well be an opportunity to build the start of a statewide opposition movement.
I'm no VA native, but I'd argue against this for the same reason it is a mistake to write off "red states" in the south as being barren pits of reaction. Even if the electoral prospects are poor, these states are full of abused proletarians who are even more in need of socialist politics than the comfortable "blue" states where "progressive" politics stands a better chance of positive electoral outcomes.
The expanding D.C. metropolis is turning shitlibs into the dominant political force in VA, but VA is a rather large state with a lot of rural and mountainous territory, it isn't all D.C. suburbs. It isn't like there's a line between West Virginia and Virginia where it suddenly shifts from Appalachian poverty to suburban decadence. Winning an election isn't the point. Climbing the hierarchy of the bourgeois state is a bonus which runs perpendicular to our goals. The point is to advance class struggle and ultimately topple the state.
You're right about the demographic differences in VA, but the rural folks in VA know who he is and hate him. The idea that pure class politics can win over poor rural whites is naive, and also most people in those rural communities aren't living in poverty. Most of them live pretty middle class existences and the rate of property ownership is very high even among the lower strata of the working class. Poverty definitely exists there but it is overstated. Also, reactionary cultural hegemony in rural areas has destroyed prospects for left wing radicalization in these poor communities. I do think it's worth taking the long path and trying to insert leftist ideas there even if it's fruitless for a long time though. Abandoning them will cause a solidification of reactionary beliefs like we have now.
Carter's domestic base of support is working class immigrants, black folks and downwardly mobile college-age whites. If he runs, I think there is zero chance he wins but it wouldn't hurt anyone to get him out there proselytizing, as long as the left doesn't put all their energy behind him.
This sounds good to me.
I think you're right about the rural proletariat. These folks have been abandoned by the Democratic Party for so long that they have been inculcated by the right to see the left as a financial and cultural elite which offers them no solutions aside from smugly telling them to "learn to code" while fawning over grifters like J.D. Vance who blame the struggles rural Americans on their own cultural and moralistic failings. Winning these people over is not something which can be accomplished by an election, nor any political project spanning the lifetime of an electoral campaign. It is going to require a long term struggle. It is going to require the growth of an entire counterculture. I believe a key part of this though will be in distinguishing ourselves from the liberalism which passes for left politics in this country. There needs to be an alternate mode of opposition to the status quo from the knee-jerk reaction offered by the right.
That is what makes this tough though, because running as Democrats in the long run will only tie us closer to this absolute failure of a party. In general I wouldn't view supporting Democratic campaigns as a productive way of converting people to the left. If we win, the party still holds so much sway throughout the legislature and media that they can tarnish and co-opt any of our leaders. On the other hand, the ability to go out campaigning with the message that "no, these people are shit too" and build towards a true alternative can be useful. We're at a crossroads where it is really about time we had our own party and cut ties to the Democrats completely.
Radicalization or socdem insurgency? Because for the former, basically any state that has high rates of inequality and low rates of property ownership. For the latter, any state whose democratic party isn't run entirely by an establishment machine.
California probably has some of the highest radical potential due to the fact that the Democrats there are both hegemonic and completely useless and everything keeps getting worse for working class people.
I’m not outright dismissive of the idea in the sense that there absolutely does exist a huge void in Virginia, and the rest of the US, for organized working class politics. The two party stranglehold is increasingly strained, and with the mounting and overlapping crises of capitalism, neither party has anything to offer workers besides rhetoric and austerity.
The conditions do exist for the formation of a working class alternative, and indeed, when polled, a consistent majority of Americans have pointed to the need for an alternative to the major parties.
This void is not going to be filled by socialists running in what is the oldest capitalist party in the world, socialists who will inevitably be roped into a defense of the enemy class, it’s going to be filled by a force that breaks with the Democrats on a class basis.
I think people truly underestimate just how quickly that organized, class independent working class politics could be a major force in American politics. There is a tremendous appetite for an alternative to a capitalist status quo of degradation and crisis, and this is a period where tremendous shifts in consciousness can, do, and will occur. The BLM protests this summer, the largest in US history and, unlike previous mass movements, involving segments of the working class in the rural Midwest and south, demonstrate the real and tangible opportunities for us.
Lee Carter is not going to fill this void as an individual and he will absolutely not be able to put forward clear working class perspectives if he holds higher office in the Democratic Party. Whatever he’s doing now with the insulin bill or other progressive policies, will be increasingly subject to forced compromise on lines set by the ruling class as he rises through the ranks of the Democrats.
If Carter breaks with the Democrats, if he presents working class perspectives clearly differentiated from the continuous betrayals and bullshit of the Dems, his national profile on the left could absolutely serve as a point of attraction for organizing the working class politically. I don’t know whether he would be able to win an election for governor, but I think the level of popular support would surprise many comrades here.
I don’t know whether he would be able to win an election for governor
It is effectively impossible to win any significant political office in the US as a third party or independent, with the rare exception of individuals who are celebrities outside of politics i.e. Jesse Ventura. There are just far, far too many voters who will select either D or R and never move off that, regardless of the candidate. I'm not even totally sure AOC would win if she ran as a third party candidate.
If socialists want to serve in office (and I think we should), there is no choice other than to operate within the Democratic party.
Choosing to operate in the flailing corpse of the Democratic Party, being dragged into abandoning any sort of working class appeal or socialist perspective, tying your horse to a Dem party that will govern using austerity, white supremacy, and repression of dissent from the left, is not a choice. It’s just not a way forward for socialists, even if you can “win” elections.
Acting like people are permanently tied to the two parties of capital, that consciousness is fixed and never shifting, that the working class would never consider an alternative before they’ve even been presented that alternative, is not an accurate or productive way of thinking about the situation.
It is effectively impossible to win any significant political office in the US as a third party or independent
No, no, no. You don't understand. The Democrat label is bad. You literally cannot call yourself a Democrat without becoming corrupted by the dark magics that infest the party.
You need to create a third party, because third parties are pure and sweet and invulnerable to the temptations of power. Third parties are clean, while the Democrat party is dirty and foul. Third parties are honest, where as the Democrat party is a miserable lie. Third parties are formed only of the most true-hearted proletariat, never careerists or ideologues whose judgement might be clouded by ambition and pride.
Only by abandoning the (D) label can Carter successfully run for a higher office. I won't even hear you discuss the mathematical problem created by entrenched two-party interests or the volume of extra work necessary to obtain name recognition or the inevitable Naderite reactionary force you run up against in a third party bid.
Third Party Good. Dem Party Bad.
Any argument to the contrary is wicked devil talk, and proves you aren't serious about leftism at all.
a force that breaks with the Democrats on a class basis.
I recently saw an interview with Bashkar Sunkura where he said that "taking over the democratic party" and "establishing a new party" shouldn't be different strategies, they're only different outcomes.
I think he’s deliberately obfuscating that distinction, having heard him speak on it a few times. Changing the class nature of a centuries-old capitalist party, and going about the process of building an organized, independent political alternative, are two very different tasks. Bhaskar has generally favored working in (and inevitably with) the Dems, and, at least from what I’ve heard from him, his strategy for breaking with the Dems goes through the dem party.
And the prospects for success are not the same. Despite the electoral success of progressive Dems, the party on the whole is continuing to track to the right! For example, Biden’s “fig leaf” to the left on healthcare in 2020 was objectively worse than Clinton’s offer in 2016, and this is after a series of campaigns with socialized healthcare as the key issue. And the highest profile socialists in the dem party are bullied into being team players and supporting this state of affairs. It’s hard to make the case that the Democrats, and the capitalists they serve, are the enemy when you are hamstrung by literally governing in that party.
going about the process of building an organized, independent political alternative, are two very different tasks
I'm not denying that (and I don't think he is either). If you look at the historic successes of third parties and the recent succes of social-democratic candidates inside the democratic party, I don't understand how you can deny that participating in primaries in the democratic party is a succesfull strategy for the left. Participating in those doesn't mean you don't form your won political line, it does not mean you become subservient to the party. Some high profile individuals have done that in 2020, but DSA didn't.
his strategy for breaking with the Dems goes through the dem party.
Yes, that is correct. In a scenario like what's ahppening with Corbyn in the UK at the moment you could make such a break if you're willing to fight (unlike the British left is doing, regrettably). The fact that he's already making that intention clear now, shows prospect.
Changing the class nature of a centuries-old capitalist party
The democratic party has over 45 million members . Many of those people are working class, by defenition (the bourgeoisie isn't that big). The consciousness of the working class in the US simply isn't that great that you can just abandon this structure.
By the way, I would also like to make the extra point that what is called a "political party" is very dissimilar to political parties in the rest of the world, and I think this is a crucial point to make in this debate. A political party in the rest of the world is a private entity where individuals can join if they pay a fee, and in return they have a say in the political programme of the party. The "parties" in the US are of a completely different nature: you register with the governement to which one you belong, and in return you can participate in an electoral process. In that sense, they are much more similar to the first round of a two round electoral system (like in France for example) than to a party. They 're not 100% the exact same, but I believe this framing is helpfull to understand the role of primaries in the democrats. If you understand parties in this sense, an organisation like DSA despite not being considered a "party" is is behaving like one, and the democratic party isn't.
Changing the class nature of a centuries-old capitalist party
You're reading this backwards. The parties are capitalist because the country is capitalist. It's a consequence of the prevailing economic system, not the force behind it.
Any new party will be just as vulnerable to the temptations created by public-private revolving doors, corporate money and manpower, and the ambitions of its less ethical members as the existing two. There will be nothing incorruptible about a New American Labor Party's leadership, should it ever gain enough traction to start winning seats. No more than the DSA or the Greens have been immune to temptation.
Despite the electoral success of progressive Dems, the party on the whole is continuing to track to the right!
The biggest right-shift of the party occurred in the Reagan Era, when the DLC began its take-over by running candidates and winning races in historically labor-friendly midwestern states. The FDR/LBJ wing of the party lost out to the Clinton wing in the same way the Liberal Republicans were ousted by the Tea Party.
Progressives are just now beginning to stake claims to the party leadership again, and this sub's response is "Bernie didn't win! Fuck it, let's do the Ralph Nader thing again!"
If there's one thing folks like Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul, and Donald Trump have consistently demonstrated, it's the third parties are a losing game. At best, you still end up caucusing with a Big Two party. At worst, you get Nader-ized and you end up alienating your would-be base by the "spoiler" tag.
Hes arguably the most effective progressive legislator in the assembly (look up his insulin bill!) a run for gov. Would be disastrous. It takes a special kind of sleaze and corruption to be VA governor.
Yep, he's got a good spot, but I don't the governor is the next step until he has significant backing by an actual org (existing, or something he creates himself) in VA. He should take time (like a decade or two) and get other socialist (social-ish, whatever) seats in the legislature alongside him.
Once he has a level of "cred" from leading a caucus, running for governor will be appropriate, if not an obvious move. Don't pull a Beto and jump out of your lane cause you bought your own hype.
State legislature to governor is a reasonable leap.
Failed Senate run to president is dumb as fuck.
It's not totally unreasonable, but (without knowing anything about VA politics in particular) the leap from "fringe legislator who often stirs things up politically" to governor is still bigger than "political leader who has established socialist representation within the VA legislature over several years, and has led the passing of these bills [list of bills from his socialist cactus here]" to governor.
My understanding is that he's constantly fighting against the Rep and Dem establishment on his own, and would be further isolated if he were to run for governor (not something the Dems would let him have lightly). I just feel like he should get some political allies around him first, even if it takes more time.
It would be hilarious to watch a "socialist" distort himself into a pretzel trying to appease Northrop Grumman while keeping his twitter cred
I don't know, if he ever did blackface before his political awakening, there's a chance they would accept him
The point of communist electoral participation is to agitate. The small chance of winning is only a secondary benefit. By running a campaign Carter can highlight all the ways his establishment competition is unfit to deal with the moment, and if he loses he can demonstrate that bourgeois democracy itself is unfit to deal with the moment. Of course, that's investing a lot of faith in Carter, which is fully debatable.
Whether or not we can win is not the reason we run campaigns. We run campaigns to show that the entire process is a farce. We run campaigns specifically because we cannot win through electoral politics. We do it to hammer the point in to people's heads that better things are possible, but you aren't going to get them by playing this rigged game. This only works if the campaign is being run with that intent though (unlike Bernie, who did everything in his power to reaffirm confidence in the farce of bourgeois democracy and funnel a borderline revolutionary contempt for the system back into the system).
A lot of people may consider this to be a waste of time and effort, but I think as long as you leave the possibility open that "maybe we can make things better if we ran electoral campaigns," it will be a roadblock to radicalization. You need to make it clear that electoralism is not the solution, and the occasional demonstration goes a lot farther in making this obvious to people than reams of theory. You need to foreclose that possibility entirely if you want people to move en masse to the next step.
the only real issue would be if running requires he give up the legislative seat he already has first, regardless of if he wins or not.
which it might, idk
I’m not convinced this would be as embarrassing as some folks in this thread make it out to be. Virginia might be shitlib city, but the primary field will be crowded - the current lieutenant governor Justin Fairfax and former governor Terry McAuliffe have already declared - and if more shitters join the field it’s possible Carter could win a tight primary with 30 or 35% of the vote. Remember in 2018, Andrew Gillum snagged the Democratic nod in Florida with 34% of the vote after the libs split the vote.
I think that’s what Carter means when he “sees a path” - if enough shitters jump in the race the race becomes easier for a serious leftist to win.
The problem is that if that happens, their class conscoiousness kicks in and they unite to defeat the leftist candidate, just like what happened with Bernie.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
okay i shouldn't be this dissmissive, maybe there's something HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
He posts way too much cringe on twitter. I like the guy, but he needs to stop posting.
If Trump has shown you libs one thing it's that a politician can abuse twitter effectively.
But he follower shamed felix or whatever so he should probably be less online.
From somewhat promising leftist candidate to fucking idiot to pure, unadulterated grift
Edit: Yes, I was thinking of Joshua4Congress, you may continue to dunk on me now
everyone is a grifter, it's a bit like how everyone is a liberal, except me of course.
Chapo chat stop confusing Lee Carter for Joshua4Congress challenge 2020
