okay but when I see prison camps for 'radical muslims' my first thought isn't "well all right then, carry on.". the CIA are lying liars who lie, and will say whatever best suits their interests at the moment, but that is, on rare occasion, the truth. find one mediocre source, and I'd believe the PRC was pulling this shit.
its just important to remember that the americans are doing it too. there are no good states here.
Like determining if China is good or bad would be a binary decision between absolute good/absolute bad.
It is a bit of a simple analysis of the situation, especially coming from a leftist.
No I get it, I'm just saying that supporting China is kinda important if you don't want to come off as a bougie utopian Marxist.
They're a materialist worker's state that's actually trying to be as non-imperial as possible. They exist in the real world, so they will have to solve real problems and solving a problem is never as pretty as the diagram for solving the problem.
This was more of a dig at utopianism than anything, critical support for China is fine. Just don't go around saying "WELL ACTUALLY THEY'RE IMPERIALIST TOO" because it accomplishes nothing but allowing sinophobia to fester and shutting down discussion on why they're doing what they're doing.
The conversation about China's economic policy can be interesting. Especially discussing if the market liberalisation to strafe crippling sanctions was a good plan. If their self-reliance model works in the modern world. How their foreign investment model differes from neo-liberal imperialist models. Etc.
This specific situation just seems to be overplayed and blown out of proportion.
Sorry I worded it badly, I :100-com: % agree with you, China is mostly good, is not engaging in imperialism(just ie listen to what Varoufakis said concerning concessions made by China buying parts of infrastructure in Greece, compared to western investors - like guaranteeing standing contracts with workers and such) .
I have issues with some things, like concerning the workplace.
With regards to opening up for foreign investment while keeping control of those formed enterprises and thereof resulting intellectual property and technology.
If you think about it, it was a very smart way to industrialize the country in record speed and increase living conditions all around in unseen proportions.
Honestly, it is pretty marvelous, and any leftist should at the least critically support the Chinese.
Absolutely. China is a miraculous state. They learned from all the USSRs mistakes and not only persisted in a hostile world, but thrived. I feel that their position also allowed for the continuation of socialist/communist experiments in the region as well. Vietnam, Laos, and the DPRK would have been sanctioned to death without China being a buffer state between them and the imperialists.
I legit think that China is in the best position to actually rid the world of capitalism. Or at least passively support places that decide to try locally. They won't sanction revolutionary states like everyone else.
Yes, and because they were not too on the nose about progressing communism, the west misread that as less commitment to the cause and in turn thought they were on the same side as the CCP since Deng Xiaoping, when in fact greedy capitalist investment was tricked into handing over tech and resources to China to build them up to a status that they can stand on their own and can if they want to rival the US.
I don't think they really want to do that though(not yet at least), I think their point is to show through their undeniable advances for their peoples how a socialist(aspiring communist) society can be vastly superior in providing for its people and how we have it completely ass backwards on basically anything when it comes to how we organise society.
They're doing a bang up job so far haha. I don't think there's much internal dissent right now, and one of the greatest threats to the CCP would be allowing western educated citizens into the politiboro. Even that is starting to seem less dangerous now. With the west in disarray and students studying overseas rushing back to China as they watch the West make a perfect example of why capitalism can not be allowed to exist.
Amazing how if you generally try to make things better for the people instead of milking them for every last penny, they might actually like you, funny how that works, right?
This is also why the issues created around Xinjiang and HK are drilled so hard by western governments and media, because China cannot be portrayed in an overall good light or it would make it obvious that liberal democracy is not the end all be all. And they fear that very much. For the last 30 years they were always able to say look we tried this communism thing in Russia, didn't work out, was horrible.
But now all of a sudden a rising China appears on the horizon, eradicating poverty and hunger in a population of 1.5 billion, while the US has tens of millions who don't even know how to come up with enough money for adequate food for them and their families. In Germany, a population of about 80 million, we have almost 3 million children growing up in poverty.
It is absurd and everything is on its head, our world is completely wrong.
China, by virtue of existing, serves as a light with which to reveal the contradictions of capitalism. They're literally serving as "the shining city of the hill" that America claims it is.
the ccp is bad and the world would be better off without it.
the american empire is bad and the world would be better off without it.
id be happy to see both burn; to see so many people liberated.
Didn't China officially release footage of "vocational centres for deradicalisation"?
Yeah, and that's exactly what it is. It's to stop radical terrorists.
Which situation is more ethical to you:
Yes neither is ideal especially with the exact way China are doing that education, but it's a fuck of a lot better than the alternative.
May I remind everyone the US has already bombed Uyghurs, not in China obviously, but in Afghanistan.
okay but when I see prison camps for 'radical muslims' my first thought isn't "well all right then, carry on.". the CIA are lying liars who lie, and will say whatever best suits their interests at the moment, but that is, on rare occasion, the truth. find one mediocre source, and I'd believe the PRC was pulling this shit.
its just important to remember that the americans are doing it too. there are no good states here.
There definitely are better states. The US is obviously the worst.
"Actually nothing good exists. All existing things are bad and wrong. In order to be good, it has to not exist."
-utopianists
Like determining if China is good or bad would be a binary decision between absolute good/absolute bad.
It is a bit of a simple analysis of the situation, especially coming from a leftist.
No I get it, I'm just saying that supporting China is kinda important if you don't want to come off as a bougie utopian Marxist.
They're a materialist worker's state that's actually trying to be as non-imperial as possible. They exist in the real world, so they will have to solve real problems and solving a problem is never as pretty as the diagram for solving the problem.
This was more of a dig at utopianism than anything, critical support for China is fine. Just don't go around saying "WELL ACTUALLY THEY'RE IMPERIALIST TOO" because it accomplishes nothing but allowing sinophobia to fester and shutting down discussion on why they're doing what they're doing.
The conversation about China's economic policy can be interesting. Especially discussing if the market liberalisation to strafe crippling sanctions was a good plan. If their self-reliance model works in the modern world. How their foreign investment model differes from neo-liberal imperialist models. Etc.
This specific situation just seems to be overplayed and blown out of proportion.
Sorry I worded it badly, I :100-com: % agree with you, China is mostly good, is not engaging in imperialism(just ie listen to what Varoufakis said concerning concessions made by China buying parts of infrastructure in Greece, compared to western investors - like guaranteeing standing contracts with workers and such) .
I have issues with some things, like concerning the workplace.
With regards to opening up for foreign investment while keeping control of those formed enterprises and thereof resulting intellectual property and technology.
If you think about it, it was a very smart way to industrialize the country in record speed and increase living conditions all around in unseen proportions.
Honestly, it is pretty marvelous, and any leftist should at the least critically support the Chinese.
Absolutely. China is a miraculous state. They learned from all the USSRs mistakes and not only persisted in a hostile world, but thrived. I feel that their position also allowed for the continuation of socialist/communist experiments in the region as well. Vietnam, Laos, and the DPRK would have been sanctioned to death without China being a buffer state between them and the imperialists.
I legit think that China is in the best position to actually rid the world of capitalism. Or at least passively support places that decide to try locally. They won't sanction revolutionary states like everyone else.
Yes, and because they were not too on the nose about progressing communism, the west misread that as less commitment to the cause and in turn thought they were on the same side as the CCP since Deng Xiaoping, when in fact greedy capitalist investment was tricked into handing over tech and resources to China to build them up to a status that they can stand on their own and can if they want to rival the US.
I don't think they really want to do that though(not yet at least), I think their point is to show through their undeniable advances for their peoples how a socialist(aspiring communist) society can be vastly superior in providing for its people and how we have it completely ass backwards on basically anything when it comes to how we organise society.
They're doing a bang up job so far haha. I don't think there's much internal dissent right now, and one of the greatest threats to the CCP would be allowing western educated citizens into the politiboro. Even that is starting to seem less dangerous now. With the west in disarray and students studying overseas rushing back to China as they watch the West make a perfect example of why capitalism can not be allowed to exist.
Amazing how if you generally try to make things better for the people instead of milking them for every last penny, they might actually like you, funny how that works, right?
This is also why the issues created around Xinjiang and HK are drilled so hard by western governments and media, because China cannot be portrayed in an overall good light or it would make it obvious that liberal democracy is not the end all be all. And they fear that very much. For the last 30 years they were always able to say look we tried this communism thing in Russia, didn't work out, was horrible.
But now all of a sudden a rising China appears on the horizon, eradicating poverty and hunger in a population of 1.5 billion, while the US has tens of millions who don't even know how to come up with enough money for adequate food for them and their families. In Germany, a population of about 80 million, we have almost 3 million children growing up in poverty.
It is absurd and everything is on its head, our world is completely wrong.
China, by virtue of existing, serves as a light with which to reveal the contradictions of capitalism. They're literally serving as "the shining city of the hill" that America claims it is.
Exactly. :mao-aggro-shining:
Good talk comrade 🇨🇳
Yes, it is always nice to have a productive discussion I have to say. :sankara-salute:
Also helps to organise some thoughts here and there.
the ccp is bad and the world would be better off without it. the american empire is bad and the world would be better off without it. id be happy to see both burn; to see so many people liberated.